Fantastic Article on Guns and Gun Deaths

raburrell · Jun 18, 2014

Pediatricians offer advice which gets ignored all the time. You're free to take it or leave it as with everything.

Hopeless, no. A false sense of security, possibly.

For the glocks, your average 3 yr old can pull the trigger. Glock did indeed recall certain SNs. If you are comfortable owning one, that's up to you.

robjvargas · Jun 18, 2014

kaitie said:
But that's apples to oranges. A doctor has two very important elements of his job--helping parents keep kids healthy and safe, and keeping up to date with research about that specific topic.

None of which entail the safe and effective storage of guns. The subjects are widely variant, but the analogy holds because the concept is the same. Expertise in one field does not confer expertise (or even experience) in another. Also, if pediatricians' job descriptions were about keeping kids safe, they'd have to follow parents around to playgrounds, water parks, pools, and even make house calls. Which they don't.

kaitie said:
Yes, it would be stupid to ask your doctor why your gun jammed last time you tried to fire it. A mechanical question like that would obviously not be something to ask a doctor. But you're talking about a safety question which is well within a doctor's scope of research, and doctors must keep current with research.

No, we're not. And it is not. Gun safety is GUN safety, including care and upkeep. And there is no functional difference between asking a doctor how about *guns* than there is about *jet skis*.

kaitie said:
It's not at all like asking an accountant a question about mechanics.

Sure it is. In both cases, it's asking a professional to give advice that their profession has no training to provide. Knowing how to close up a gunshot wound is not knowledge in how to safely conduct one's self around guns.

raburrell · Jun 18, 2014

How much training does it take to point out that one's nightstand is not a good place for a loads pistol if there is a child in the house? Or that if your kid can find the Santa presents, he can probably find your rifle too?

I don't get what the downside is here.

Emilander · Jun 18, 2014

raburrell said:
Pediatricians offer advice which gets ignored all the time. You're free to take it or leave it as with everything.

Fair enough.

Hopeless, no. A false sense of security, possibly.

And yet millions of people, including children, live in homes with guns every day and nothing happens. So perhaps it's not a false sense of security but a false sense of urgency as to the severity of the issue.

For the glocks, your average 3 yr old can pull the trigger. Glock did indeed recall certain SNs. If you are comfortable owning one, that's up to you.

If you say so. Link to the recall of specific SN? The link you provided earlier was for an exchange program. I don't own a Glock, nor could I own the problem models because of the laws of my state.

Xelebes · Jun 18, 2014

Ok, ready.

Emilander said:
And yet millions of people, including children, live in homes with guns every day and nothing happens. So perhaps it's not a false sense of security but a false sense of urgency as to the severity of the issue.

Fair point. Your serve.

raburrell · Jun 18, 2014

Emilander said:
And yet millions of people, including children, live in homes with guns every day and nothing happens. So perhaps it's not a false sense of security but a false sense of urgency as to the severity of the issue.

Guess it just sucks to be one of the 15,576 children injured by a gun (in 2010) then. And they kill twice as many as cancer does.

If you say so. Link to the recall of specific SN? The link you provided earlier was for an exchange program. I don't own a Glock, nor could I own the problem models because of the laws of my state.

try here: http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/2011/09/07/glock-gen4-recall/. There's plenty of info if you google 'Glock Gen 4 recall'.

asroc · Jun 18, 2014

robjvargas said:
None of which entail the safe and effective storage of guns. The subjects are widely variant, but the analogy holds because the concept is the same. Expertise in one field does not confer expertise (or even experience) in another. Also, if pediatricians' job descriptions were about keeping kids safe, they'd have to follow parents around to playgrounds, water parks, pools, and even make house calls. Which they don't.

No, but they can advise parents to secure their pool covers, not to let their kids play unsupervised in the deep end and so on. Some people are genuinely clueless about these things, things that may seem absolutely self-evident to you or me.

A while ago I responded to a car accident where a toddler was simply buckled up in the passenger's seat. (The child was fine.) One of our police officers asked the driver about the kid's car seat. The driver had no clue what the officer was talking about. Somehow it had never occurred to her. I don't know how, but these people exist.

As for expertise, pediatricians have to do mandatory con-ed like every other healthcare professional, so it'd be trivial to teach them the basics. Or at least tell them where to direct the parents to get the proper information.

Prozyan said:
As far as I know, the Remington defect has been corrected.

Kind of. The newer 700s have a different trigger system, but there are still millions of older Remmies with the Walker trigger system out there, including many with bolt locks (meaning it can't be unloaded with the safety on, a feature they removed in the 80s.) Apparently Remington decided not to recall them, claiming that all the incidents were due to user error. I can't say how right or wrong they are—I admit I own a Remington 700 and I'm very happy with it, never had a single issue—, but this is pretty shady behavior.

kaitie · Jun 18, 2014

robjvargas said:
None of which entail the safe and effective storage of guns. The subjects are widely variant, but the analogy holds because the concept is the same. Expertise in one field does not confer expertise (or even experience) in another. Also, if pediatricians' job descriptions were about keeping kids safe, they'd have to follow parents around to playgrounds, water parks, pools, and even make house calls. Which they don't.

No, we're not. And it is not. Gun safety is GUN safety, including care and upkeep. And there is no functional difference between asking a doctor how about *guns* than there is about *jet skis*.

Sure it is. In both cases, it's asking a professional to give advice that their profession has no training to provide. Knowing how to close up a gunshot wound is not knowledge in how to safely conduct one's self around guns.

I still hold that you're making comparisons that don't hold water. Yes, gun safety includes many aspects, including holding a weapon properly, storing it properly, knowing when and how to shoot, how to clean it, etc. etc.

What we're discussing here, though, isn't your doctor telling you to clean your weapon a certain amount of time, or anything else. Think of it as home safety, not gun safety. There are things you can do to make a home a safer place around young children. Part of that is having guns out of reach of kids, preferably locked and unloaded.

You're acting as if it's rocket science that a doctor would be completely incapable of knowing, but it fits directly into the realm of all other elements of home safety.

Yes, a part of that might overlap with the big broad picture that is gun safety, in the same way car safety includes things like not tailgating, having your oil changed regularly, and following road signs.

That doesn't mean it's inappropriate for a doctor to tell you how to properly secure you into the car, or that the doctor also must tell you about having your oil changed and that running red lights is stupid.

Can I ask what you're concerned will happen if a doctor mentions safe gun storage? Because I don't understand that. It's not like the doctor is going to be misinforming someone on cleaning their pistol.

robjvargas · Jun 18, 2014

kaitie said:
What we're discussing here, though, isn't your doctor telling you to clean your weapon a certain amount of time, or anything else. Think of it as home safety, not gun safety. There are things you can do to make a home a safer place around young children. Part of that is having guns out of reach of kids, preferably locked and unloaded.

That's not just true of guns. Knives, forks, anything sharp, really.

kaitie said:
You're acting as if it's rocket science that a doctor would be completely incapable of knowing, but it fits directly into the realm of all other elements of home safety.

None of which is a pediatrician trained to provide advice on.

Look, I work in IT Security. I got here via hardware support. Replacing CPU's, motherboards, stuff like that. But now that I'm in Security, *in my job*, I can no longer do that. If I do, IT Security suddenly becomes responsible for that computer. That's inefficient, and takes time away from the tasks that I should be doing in IT Security.

It doesn't matter that troubleshooting and replacing a mouse is easy. Even though I *have* been trained on that, it's not where my current experience is best applied.

The same is true here. It's not that doctors can't know. It's also not that gun safety is difficult. It is that a doctor's office (so to speak) isn't the place for a gun safety discussion.

kaitie said:
Can I ask what you're concerned will happen if a doctor mentions safe gun storage? Because I don't understand that. It's not like the doctor is going to be misinforming someone on cleaning their pistol.

Why not? Because he (or she) is a doctor? Why dismiss even the possibility out of hand like that?

To me, that's professional hubris, and therefore a perfect environment for exactly that to happen.

Xelebes · Jun 18, 2014

Sorry, I'm not seeing the comparison. Yes you work in an industry with lots of controls over the realms which you are trained to do. The pediatrician is to help with the health of the child. That specifically includes giving some frank advice on what one does with the items in the child's house, including guns.

I am not seeing how an accountant providing advice on fixing marine engines is a comparison. An accountant is not asked to advise on fixing things apart from assessing the cost of doing so.

An IT Tech who moves from hardware to security has their focus shifted and must keep sections separate so that they can focus on their specialty. The closest analogy to medicine would be a psychiatrist not being asked to do heart surgery.

clintl · Jun 18, 2014

No subject related to keeping a child safe and healthy should be off-limits for a pediatrician to discuss. Period.

Prozyan · Jun 18, 2014

I have no problems with a pediatrician discussing multiple topics of safety, including firearm safety if applicable.

I am uncomfortable with a note of any kind being entered into a medical record indicating the child is in a home that contains firearms.

vsrenard · Jun 18, 2014

Ridiculous legislation. Fine pediatricians can't talk about gun safety, if gun sellers can't talk about anti-gun legislation. After all, they are not law experts. And really, docs shouldn't talk about poison control in the house because they are neither chemists nor toxicologists. Are they car manufacturers? No? There goes seat belt safety. Constitutional law experts? No? Then no talking about how to keep your kid from cyber bullying because, yanno, free speech.

Wait, gag order on pediatricians? Maybe we need that con law expert after all.

Elias Graves · Jun 18, 2014

As soon as you all guarantee that no one will ever break into my home, assault me or attempt to institute tyranny, I will gladly support repeal of the second amendment. Until then, all I can say is don't break into my house. You will only walk through one door.

rugcat · Jun 18, 2014

Elias Graves said:
As soon as you all guarantee that no one will ever break into my home, assault me or attempt to institute tyranny, I will gladly support repeal of the second amendment. Until then, all I can say is don't break into my house. You will only walk through one door.

Gosh.

We sure have some super tough guys here at AW.

benbradley · Jun 18, 2014

Vince524 said:
So then, if I'm correct, their #'s are skewed?

It seems like this article is saying the benifit of gun ownership is outweighed by the damage done by gun ownership.

If I own a gun(Which for the record, I don't) and I brandish it at someone breaking into my home and they flee, I can say the gun was a goiod thing and may have saved my life, but it won't be acknoledged by this study.

I'm saying it's not a scientific study, or that it's only "scientific" in a small sense in that it discusses statistics on "gun use" as an incident where a gun is fired that injures or kills a person.

Your post is a little confusing to me, because you seem to read the study as coming to the opposite conclusion as I do.

It appears to me the study is saying keeping a gun in the home causes more injury and death to innocents than to home invaders. My point is that I would not conclude that keeping a gun at home makes it more dangerous for those living in the home based solely on this study.

Also, it's my understanding that "brandishing a gun" means showing it off or pulling it out inappropriately. If you're pointing a gun at a home invader and intend to shoot if they don't go away, I don't think that would be called brandishing.

raburrell · Jun 18, 2014

I'd say their terminology could be clearer - the way I read it, they're comparing the number of times a good guy gets shot as opposed to a bad guy getting shot, and concluding that good guys are shot 3-4X more often.

It does seem like an apples to apples comparison, but you're correct in that it leaves out the times when a gun might be used to scare off an intruder. That said, if you want to compare that to an apples-to-apples 'other side' statistic, you'd have to look at the number of times someone got drunk and waved a gun at his wife, etc. Or someone who grabbed his gun because the dogs got into the trash at midnight again. Personally, I have no idea how you'd go about gathering that kind of data.

benluby · Jun 19, 2014

Xelebes said:
benluby: Isn't that a bit of a "mom, I'm a big kid now!" argument? That is, you are taking offense to simple reminders of safety?

Nope. It's a bit of 'you're not their fucking parents and stay out of my house'.
We've already had school officials calling cops because they heard little Billies dad has a gun.
What is needed is making psychological professionals report potentially dangerous patients.

robjvargas · Jun 19, 2014

Xelebes said:
An IT Tech who moves from hardware to security has their focus shifted and must keep sections separate so that they can focus on their specialty. The closest analogy to medicine would be a psychiatrist not being asked to do heart surgery.

I tried that, too, when I spoke of a pediatrician working on an implanted defibrillator.

Clearly, that got ignored.

Xelebes · Jun 19, 2014

Aha, post #147.

Still not seeing how it is comparable. You're talking about somebody who knows about child biology (including basic child kinesiology and psychology, an important thing to know about what a child can and will do.) So how is this a doctor working on a defibrilator like warning the parent what not to do with their gun knowing that there is a child in the house? The doctor is not saying how to clean the gun, the doctor is not saying how to shoot the gun, just saying how you should store the gun, just like how they would warn you how to store and use the household poisons with the child around.

So can you for the love of all that is good connect the disparate dots you're trying to connect here?

rugcat · Jun 19, 2014

robjvargas said:
That's not just true of guns. Knives, forks, anything sharp, really.

Very true.

Just the other day I saw an article in the paper about the alarming rise of deaths and injuries occurring to children who found an unattended and unsecured fork.

benbradley · Jun 19, 2014

rugcat said:
Very true.

Just the other day I saw an article in the paper about the alarming rise of deaths and injuries occurring to children who found an unattended and unsecured fork.

Wait until you hear about the child death in metro Atlanta yesterday. You may have already heard about it.

kaitie · Jun 21, 2014

I've pretty much already decided that I will not allow my kids to play at a house with unsecured weapons, but here is a good article about the situation.

The most interesting/saddest thing about this is that the kid who died had very responsible parents and had been taught how to handle guns properly from the time he was three. He died because his best friend's parents weren't so responsible.

Fantastic Article on Guns and Gun Deaths

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