Mass Infant Grave found in Irish Septic Tank.

veinglory · Jun 4, 2014

kaitie said:
I'm just not a fan of the "it's better not to be born" argument.

This is IMHO staring down a debate that is a little far afield and tends to get acrimonious very quickly. Especially as, in this time and place, not being born was not an option.

kaitie · Jun 4, 2014

Well, if people want to argue that abortion would have solved this problem, I think it's only fair to argue otherwise. You're right, however, that it's a contentious topic, and I'll bow out of it.

My opinion is presumably known around here, and it's an argument I can't have without getting very, very sad, so I'd rather not have it anyway.

Cranky · Jun 4, 2014

veinglory said:
This is IMHO staring down a debate that is a little far afield and tends to get acrimonious very quickly. Especially as, in this time and place, not being born was not an option.

+1

Devil Ledbetter · Jun 4, 2014

kaitie said:
I'm just not a fan of the "it's better not to be born" argument. It's also better to have proper support and better attitudes, or other elements that could have improved the situation for these children and their mothers.

You might say it would have been better if abortion had been legal so the children could have never been born, but that's a random speculation about how things would have been better if only.

I hate the idea that the only two choices are suffering or death. That's not the case. If we're playing the "if only" game, then I would much prefer to have supports available, or to do away with social attitudes towards "illegitimate" children. Both are talking about making a change, but at least mine gave those kids a chance to live instead of dooming them to either suffering or death.

Kaitie, I understand your argument, really I do. But I did not make binary case for suffering v. death. I did not say that abortion was the sole solution. And I've already pointed that out clearly in my previous post.

RichardGarfinkle · Jun 4, 2014

Andrew Sullivan's impassioned take on this.

I'm inclined to agree with him about this.

I blame the crippling, toxic, near-insane fixation on sexual sin as the core ideology at work here. A view of sex that is riddled with shame and disgust, in which simple human nature must be so expelled and exterminated it requires a secret mass grave to keep the lie in place.

One of the most disturbing aspects of pietism (as opposed to religion) is its tendency to look down on the "sinful" others while filling one's mind with obsessions on those sins.

In the Screwtape Letters, C.S.Lewis points out (not in these exact words) that a person whose mind is obsessed with not wanting too much food is being gluttonous. In the same way, it seems to me that this obsessive horror at sex is a sign of a lustful mind.

This view carries with it a disturbing image of corruption, in which a person observed to have some relation to sneered-at sexuality (either practicing it or born from it) is deemed to be inhuman. This leads to the callous, murderous, pietistic attitudes of honor killings, Uganda's anti-gay law, and this concentration camp for innocent children.

Xelebes · Jun 4, 2014

I do wonder about the impact of Malthusian pre-occupation of over-population during the population boom of the British Isles during the Industrial Revolution (1780-1950) on the consternation over sex. You have nobs concerned about a repeat of the French Revolution, especially after Malthus' diagnosis of the cause of the revolution was the overpopulation, while the Vatican pressed on with unchanging birth policy after the emergence of the plagues. The Irish government was forced to, after gaining independence, square these two foolish but interdependent doctrines with a solution that could and did provide a cheap source of piety.

Hanson · Jun 4, 2014

Xelebes said:
I do wonder about the impact of Malthusian pre-occupation of over-population during the population boom of the British Isles during the Industrial Revolution (1780-1950) on the consternation over sex. You have nobs concerned about a repeat of the French Revolution, especially after Malthus' diagnosis of the cause of the revolution was the overpopulation, while the Vatican pressed on with unchanging birth policy after the emergence of the plagues. The Irish government was forced to, after gaining independence, square these two foolish but interdependent doctrines with a solution that could and did provide a cheap source of piety.

Interesting post.

The RCC's primary obsession is with social cohesion, but, unfortunately, at any cost.

Which tends to be a trait with large socially and politically powerful entities.

The tendency of powerful entities is to sacrifice individuals for the 'greater cause, or 'greater good'.

Happens across a wide variety of human enterprises, but tends to be viewed as more unacceptable when from an entity that espouses principals to the contrary, such as 'the sacredness of life/ childhood/individuals'.

I hope in time the human species will find a solution to this type of collective barbarism.

Xelebes · Jun 6, 2014

Kenny states concerns over finding other similar mass graves, and that they are serious about seeing finding where they may be.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-new...graves-exist-across-the-country-30332667.html

The Times are speculating that there are between four and ten such sites.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/article4110268.ece

veinglory · Jun 6, 2014

The police are really showing their stripes in insisting this is an older grave when the historian comprehensively showed that it is not using evidence anyone can see and assess for themselves.

veinglory · Jun 6, 2014

Especially as the Irish Catholic Church itself is not denying the find or resisting investigation http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld...hurch-says-horrified-by-childrens-mass-grave/

Alessandra Kelley · Jun 6, 2014

veinglory said:
Especially as the Irish Catholic Church itself is not denying the find or resisting investigation http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld...hurch-says-horrified-by-childrens-mass-grave/

State overseen and state funded, I see.

raburrell · Jun 24, 2014

TNR is casting doubt on some elements of this story, and they raise some interesting perspective questions:

The Associated Press last week issued a lengthy correction admitting that the septic tank might not contain any human remains at all; the wire service had also incorrectly reported that the children hadn’t been baptized because they were born out of wedlock. Other media outlets have been slower to dial down the hyperbole. Britain’s Guardian newspaper amended a headline on an opinion piece, removing the “dumped” claim, but most outlets have left their fact-free speculation to stand.

The part of the article's commentary I found most interesting, as such issues often come up when long-ago injustices are uncovered:

The idea that pious nuns would dump babies’ bodies in human waste was too shocking to pass up—or to fact-check, apparently. But the story gained traction for a deeper reason. In the eyes of foreigners familiar with Angela’s Ashes but not the more mundane reality of Ireland today, it comported with the long-outdated stereotype of Ireland as a poor, strictly pious nation where every child knows misery. As for the Irish themselves, the story allowed for a favorite, perverse pastime: trying the present through the prism of the past.

TerzaRima · Jun 24, 2014

the wire service had also incorrectly reported that the children hadn’t been baptized because they were born out of wedlock.

I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic schools, and this part really pinged my theological bullshit meter. Also, the thing about 800 babies--not to be gross, but after decades in a septic tank I wouldn't imagine the count would be so precise.

I didn't say anything, because everybody was getting their outrage on and I'm always the doubting Thomas pain in the ass.

Xelebes · Jun 24, 2014

The count comes from clerical records, not bones found.

TerzaRima · Jun 24, 2014

800 deaths documented does not mean that 800 babies were flushed down the toilet. Right?

veinglory · Jun 24, 2014

There were almost 800 registered deaths, mostly of infants. Whether or not all of them are in there or only a few hundred, I think an inquiry is warranted.

TerzaRima · Jun 24, 2014

I'm not saying an inquiry is not warranted, but that it's sloppy journalism.

Roxxsmom · Jun 24, 2014

TerzaRima said:
I'm not saying an inquiry is not warranted, but that it's sloppy journalism.

Something we see way too much of these days

veinglory · Jun 24, 2014

I think saying there may be no remains in the tank is swinging too far the other way. There are a great many bones and multiple visible human skulls according to witnesses from different discoveries of the site over quite a few years. But all the stories agree it is an unexcavated site so the remains have not been counted. The leap to all the known deceased being there is a leap too far, but it is definitely a grave. If not, I am quite sure the church would never have taken the steps that it did in response.

Xelebes · Jun 24, 2014

Actually, there were remains originally discovered in and around the septic tank. At first they were reasoned to be much older, from the 17th or 18th century - possibly an epidemic that swept through the region. Dating them may have been difficult due to the lack of preservation being located around a breeched septic tank. Records indicated that bodies were more likely to be more recent.

Old Hack · Jun 25, 2014

The Washington Post had a good piece about the inaccuracies apparent in the reporting of this story:

Media exaggerated horror tale at Irish orphanage

kaitie · Jun 25, 2014

You know, could there be any penalty for misreporting facts just because stories weren't properly fact checked? I kind of feel like there should be.

veinglory · Jun 25, 2014

I think the journalist stated as truth what was presented as plausible supposition. IMHO, it is a difference some of them fail to even understand exists. In my job I talk to journos and they overstate what I actually, and very carefully, said about half the time.

kaitie · Jun 25, 2014

But there is a big difference between what they were told--someone had evidence of 800 babies dying, and believed they might be buried in a septic tank so they were trying to find out, and reporting that 800 skeletons had been found in a tank.

It's all sensationalism. It doesn't strike me as misunderstanding the situation. It strikes me as intentionally exaggerating to make it sound more "interesting."

I think that should be unacceptable. If we rely on journalists to provide us for information and they like (or at least exaggerate) fifty percent of the time, that's not okay. That's misinforming.

Right now there are no consequences for it. I just wonder if it was possible to have actual penalties for this if it would stop.

Sheryl Nantus · Jun 25, 2014

Old Hack said:
The Washington Post had a good piece about the inaccuracies apparent in the reporting of this story:

Media exaggerated horror tale at Irish orphanage

And pass up a chance to bash Catholics? Nay...

:sarcasm

Meanwhile the Pope excommunicated the Mafia and pulled over to the side of the road to bless a sick child because the family asked him to.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...s-stops-motorcade-to-bless-disabled-girl.html

Mass Infant Grave found in Irish Septic Tank.

volitare nequeo

With great power comes

Come on you stranger, you legend,

Nurture Phoenixes

Delerium ex Ennui

Delerium ex Ennui

volitare nequeo

volitare nequeo

Sophipygian

Treguna Makoidees Trecorum SadisDee

Absinthe O'Malice

Delerium ex Ennui

Absinthe O'Malice

volitare nequeo

Absinthe O'Malice

Beastly Fido

volitare nequeo

Delerium ex Ennui

Such a nasty woman

With great power comes

volitare nequeo

With great power comes

Holding out for a Superhero...