AGAIN?!?! Rape Allegation And Victim Blaming

robjvargas

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"She knows exactly what she was doing and for her to just claim rape because she is concerned about what her parents were gonna say, I thought that was disrespectful and is ruining people's lives," said Alexis Wade.

Umm... yeah.

Another house party with high school students, alcohol, and no adult supervision. Another girl from a neighboring community. Allegations of sexual assault. A video. Facebook.

Anyone see the formula here? But that quote above...

Wow.
 

regdog

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Primus forbid the rapists actually be held accountable for the rape.
 

Plot Device

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I have a serious question with no snark or sarcasm to it whatsoever.

Do these teen & twenty-something guys actually BELIEVE that these girls are willing? That they know what's going on? That they consented all during the act and are only changing their minds now after the fact?

Or is that just a great big "Duh! Those screwed up perceptions are exactly what rape culture consists of!" ??
 

Vince524

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I have a serious question with no snark or sarcasm to it whatsoever.

Do these teen & twenty-something guys actually BELIEVE that these girls are willing? That they know what's going on? That they consented all during the act and are only changing their minds now after the fact?

Or is that just a great big "Duh! Those screwed up perceptions are exactly what rape culture consists of!" ??

Well, they did put it online. One could argue that proves they really believed they did nothing wrong.

One could also argue that they're complete morons.

Wonder which argument holds more water?
 

rugcat

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I have a serious question with no snark or sarcasm to it whatsoever.

Do these teen & twenty-something guys actually BELIEVE that these girls are willing? That they know what's going on? That they consented all during the act and are only changing their minds now after the fact?

Or is that just a great big "Duh! Those screwed up perceptions are exactly what rape culture consists of!" ??
"Her lips said no, but her eyes said yes. "
 

Zoombie

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As a man who grew up in this culture - this rape culture - I can say that I was taught by certain media and certain people that girls were slot machines, wherein if I put in enough friendship coins, sex comes out.

Fortunately, I grew up.
 

StormChord

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As a person who tends to be closer to the receiving end of that particular subculture, I think that it is actually believed. And, like Zoombie mentioned, I think a lot of it is taught by the media.

Girls in movies have sex. Sometimes they use their attractiveness to get what they want, sometimes they're simply the Designated Girlfriend who goes through the stages of "awkward first meeting" to "friends" to "the kiss" to "sex". Because these are the acceptable ways for female protagonists to act, many guys don't even consider the idea that real women won't necessarily think with their lady-parts most of the time.

Because it's the culturally taught behavior for women, rape culture assumes that any interaction with a woman can segue into sex. From there, it's a small but unjustifiable leap to the idea that, therefore, sex is the end goal in every interaction with a woman, and clearly both parties understand this going in.

TL,DR; It's real, it's gross, and I don't want it anywhere near my brain.
 

Cyia

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The sad fact is - some girls (and guys) lie about rape. The ones that do so are far outnumbered by actual rape cases, but the liars are given a disproportionate amount of attention by media when they're discovered. Then that disproportionate attention swings toward the next case, which is likely not someone lying, so now the legit victims are being handed the responsibility of shouldering lies they never told.

The also sad fact is -- too many people equate rape with violent, forceful sexual activity that leads to hospital stays, lasting physical wounds, or death. That's what they see on TV and in movies. They hear supposed experts differentiating between "real" rape, and the kind that isn't physically violent - the kind they refuse to label as rape. So when someone's drunk and seems to be in on the fun, or doesn't put up more than a seemingly token defense, or doesn't scream and shout and kick, then that can't possibly be rape. They see someone "willing," when in fact, the person is inebriated and not legally able to consent.
 

DancingMaenid

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The also sad fact is -- too many people equate rape with violent, forceful sexual activity that leads to hospital stays, lasting physical wounds, or death. That's what they see on TV and in movies. They hear supposed experts differentiating between "real" rape, and the kind that isn't physically violent - the kind they refuse to label as rape. So when someone's drunk and seems to be in on the fun, or doesn't put up more than a seemingly token defense, or doesn't scream and shout and kick, then that can't possibly be rape. They see someone "willing," when in fact, the person is inebriated and not legally able to consent.

I think this is definitely a big problem.

And I think some people have a hard time accepting things like date rape and marital rape because a lot of times, the perpetrators are "nice" people. They're not disturbed strangers who lurk in bushes--they're people's friends and family members. Even the victims might think they're nice prior to the attack.

I think this is one reason why victim blaming occurs more with sex crimes than with crimes like mugging or burglary. People who commit burglary or armed robbery are probably unlikely to be respected pillars of their communities, or kindly middle-aged family men. But rapists are in all walks of life. Some people have a hard time accepting that.

I also think that some people have a sort of warped perspective about what lack of consent really means, and how much context can matter. There can be this defensive attitude that rape accusations are something that happens to a man because he's not careful or perfect enough, even though in reality, that's pretty unlikely.

For example, I got into a debate once with this guy who had a really big problem with the idea that men should stop immediately if a woman asks them to, because it's physically impossible to stop having sex instantaneously. He was fixated on this idea that a man could be accused of rape just because it took him a half second to fully remove his penis from a woman's body.

Well, yeah, technically speaking, it's impossible to do something instantaneously. But this misses the point entirely. Women aren't saying "No" and then whipping out a stopwatch to see how many milliseconds it takes for the guy to pull out. That's ridiculous. I think most people can tell the difference between a partner who's considerate and someone who doesn't care/is ignoring their requests to stop.

But there can be this defensiveness, and this idea that rape accusations "just happen" no matter what you do, or that women have all this power over men.
 

robjvargas

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But there can be this defensiveness, and this idea that rape accusations "just happen" no matter what you do, or that women have all this power over men.

There *is* a level of not knowing "the rules" when it comes to women.

There was a day not too long ago where, in the same afternoon, I had one woman glare and turn away when I smiled and nodded at her. And then one woman who commutes on the same train I use, who'd never once looked me in the eyes in the two years I've been commuting to this job, asked me what she did that made me angry with her.

I'm married, and good GOD am I happy about it. "No means no" is easy for me to understand. That part I get.

All the rest of it, sometimes it feels like a maze where I'm not even allowed to see the walls until I smack into 'em nose-first. And where the walls shift and move at random.
 

KimJo

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The issue with the "no means no" concept is it doesn't allow for any variations.

"She didn't say no, so it wasn't rape"... but she didn't say no because she was too drunk to be able to speak.

"She didn't say no"... because she was asleep.

"She didn't say no"... because she knew he tends to get violent when he doesn't get his way so she was too afraid to say a word. (This happened to me.)

As a society, I think we need to get rid of the damn "no means no" thing and teach "ONLY yes means yes... EVERYTHING ELSE means no." Because otherwise we're going to keep seeing cases where "she didn't say no" because she wasn't able to for whatever reason... and therefore she wasn't raped and she's a liar.

And please note... I'm using "she" because the news article is about a girl, and because it seems like the majority of *reported* rapes have female victims. BUT... the same applies to males, because rape happens regardless of gender.
 
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Kaiser-Kun

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Two months ago, I gave a class about sexual violence in a dangerous school in my city. I asked the rhetorical question, "do you think that a woman deserves to be raped if she was wearing a miniskirt?"

The entire audience yelled yes.
 

Xelebes

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The also sad fact is -- too many people equate rape with violent, forceful sexual activity that leads to hospital stays, lasting physical wounds, or death. That's what they see on TV and in movies. They hear supposed experts differentiating between "real" rape, and the kind that isn't physically violent - the kind they refuse to label as rape. So when someone's drunk and seems to be in on the fun, or doesn't put up more than a seemingly token defense, or doesn't scream and shout and kick, then that can't possibly be rape. They see someone "willing," when in fact, the person is inebriated and not legally able to consent.

This is the major reason why Canada changed its criminal code to have all rape be put under the term "sexual assault." Anything that is violent and requiring hospital stays is charged as "aggravated sexual assault." The other reason was that at one time, the code refered to the act as sexual assault but had changed it to rape at some point.
 

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I'm male.

In all my life I don't think that EVEN ONCE, EVER, someone questioned my right to change my mind and decide that no, I don't want to have sex after all. I can have my clothes off in a pile and be on the mattress and the woman with me can be any degree of aroused and yet still, oddly enough, no one questions my right to say "Y'know, I'm outta here, you don't look so cute all of a sudden and I'm just not into it" and get up off that bed and put my clothes back on and leave.

No one says "You led her on and now you have to go through with it".

No one says "You already consented, I mean, you went with her to her apartment of your own free will and you KNEW what the situation was".

No one says "You did provocative things, you let her kiss you, you let her take your clothes off for Pete's sake, you gave her every reason to think you were entirely OK with what was happening".

I get to change my mind any damn time I want. Period.

Why shouldn't it be exactly the same rules for female-bodied people? She doesn't need a reason. She gets to change her mind (even if it WAS what she was originally intending), or to clarify your erroneous misunderstanding (if it wasn't). Why is this so complicated for people to get?
 

Alpha Echo

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As a society, I think we need to get rid of the damn "no means no" thing and teach "ONLY yes means yes... EVERYTHING ELSE means no." Because otherwise we're going to keep seeing cases where "she didn't say no" because she wasn't able to for whatever reason... and therefore she wasn't raped and she's a liar.

This is a good point. When I was raped, I remember thinking specifically, "Just keep saying no. Keep saying no, and it's rape."

We shouldn't have to think that way.

Two months ago, I gave a class about sexual violence in a dangerous school in my city. I asked the rhetorical question, "do you think that a woman deserves to be raped if she was wearing a miniskirt?"

The entire audience yelled yes.

I don't even know what to say about this. How old were the kids? That is...just. WOW. THAT'S what we teach these kids. Ugh.
 

Sarashay

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I'm male.

In all my life I don't think that EVEN ONCE, EVER, someone questioned my right to change my mind and decide that no, I don't want to have sex after all. I can have my clothes off in a pile and be on the mattress and the woman with me can be any degree of aroused and yet still, oddly enough, no one questions my right to say "Y'know, I'm outta here, you don't look so cute all of a sudden and I'm just not into it" and get up off that bed and put my clothes back on and leave.

No one says "You led her on and now you have to go through with it".

No one says "You already consented, I mean, you went with her to her apartment of your own free will and you KNEW what the situation was".

No one says "You did provocative things, you let her kiss you, you let her take your clothes off for Pete's sake, you gave her every reason to think you were entirely OK with what was happening".

I get to change my mind any damn time I want. Period.

Why shouldn't it be exactly the same rules for female-bodied people? She doesn't need a reason. She gets to change her mind (even if it WAS what she was originally intending), or to clarify your erroneous misunderstanding (if it wasn't). Why is this so complicated for people to get?

I think it has something to do with the erroneous assumption that sex is something men do but that women have done to them. You are male, therefore you get to decide if sex happens or not. The idea that women have that same right is a little too paradigm-shifty for a lot of people to handle.
 

RedRajah

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Two months ago, I gave a class about sexual violence in a dangerous school in my city. I asked the rhetorical question, "do you think that a woman deserves to be raped if she was wearing a miniskirt?"

The entire audience yelled yes.


Please tell me you then flunked everyone. :mad:
 

Kaiser-Kun

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I don't even know what to say about this. How old were the kids? That is...just. WOW. THAT'S what we teach these kids. Ugh.

15-17.

Please tell me you then flunked everyone. :mad:

Ugh, if only. I had to give the rest of my class VERY CAREFULLY and then get the fuck out of there when I saw a few of them trying to take my picture with their cellphones. That school is an halcones' recruitment center.

And anyway, the mexican school system doesn't allow students to be expelled, flunked, or even given low grades.
 

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Two months ago, I gave a class about sexual violence in a dangerous school in my city. I asked the rhetorical question, "do you think that a woman deserves to be raped if she was wearing a miniskirt?"

The entire audience yelled yes.

I think I threw up a bit in my mouth. Your students....that's just a disgusting mindset that they have.
 

raburrell

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That's just... Disheartening. :( not really the word I'm looking for, but it's the best one I can come up with at present.

Anybody see the 'open letter to Harvard' which was making the rounds last week? I made the mistake of reading the comment section on a Slate article on the subject - ugh. It was like a master class on rape culture. Seemed to be heavily populated by MRA trolls, but still.
 

kuwisdelu

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There *is* a level of not knowing "the rules" when it comes to women.

No there isn't. No one comes with a rulebook. Not men. Not women. Not black people. Not brown people. Not gay people. Not anyone.

There is a pattern among the privileged to feel persecuted when told not to do things by claiming they don't understand the rules because they don't have the rulebook.

There is a tendency to take refuge in technicalities and ask "is this okay?" and "is this okay?" and "but what about this or that?"

Like not raping people is full of loopholes and we are all lawyers navigating the waters of sexual legalities.

I am guilty of this mindset too.

But it's a misguided mindset based on the misunderstanding that humanity is a game and you just have to figure out how not to cheat.

We have to stop thinking of sex as a game you play to win. It's about sportsmanship, not the hole-in-one. (Pun intended.)

There are no rules to learn. Sometimes you'll screw up. Just don't be a dick when you do.

Or, at least, don't think with it.
 

robjvargas

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Does anyone know who this person is, what their relationship is to the events here? It's not at all clear in the story (shoddy reporting and/or editing, I guess).

So do I. I almost omitted the name.

I haven't seen anything more on this.