"Old" People Writing for Teens V

The_Ink_Goddess said:

Can I rant? This new "diversity" standard in Kirkus is making me see rage spots. Now, I am not saying that we shouldn't be promoting diverse books. OF COURSE we should. But while I think a few reviews have done this elegantly, 90% of the other reviews have been painfully clunky. I don't know if anyone else feels this way, but when I go to Kirkus, I want to read a review. This forced structure does make me feel like, instead of reading anything about the actual quality, too often I'm in fact reading some "top trumps" scale of how the book measures up to an ideological standard.

Like…when appropriate, I 100% believe that we should talk about representation. Like it bugs me so, so much when the YA protag is really insistently white but has "diverse" heritage (example: M@ra Dyer). It's not to do with the "agenda" that Kirkus wishes to uphold (can't think of a better word), but with the sense of arbitrary measuring of the book against those qualities. I'm really not sure that Kirkus is the proper forum for that discussion. If nothing else, I think it's unfair on the writer, to some extent, because Kirkuses reviews are always very short. Plus, the standard seems to (unsurprisingly) favour certain types of diversity - namely race and, to a lesser extent, sexuality. I've never seen someone mention "able-bodied" for instance (is physically disabled, has an agenda of her own ). Also, like, it doesn't seem to matter that Adam Silvera is a PoC while the Kirkus reviewers are listing off the races of his characters? That is, I guess, personal, because even though I'm physically disabled, I have no interest in writing physically disabled protags because, for better or worse, I don't want to be found out as the "disabled writer writing about disability." I can't figure out if it's the "being told" thing that I'm not used to, or if I dislike it because it's just poor writing.

I'm completely happy to be told I'm wrong, btw.

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I agree with you. I just had a quick look over a few Kirkus reviews and I agree that it's clunky writing. There's a prominent Goodreads reviewer (it doesn't really matter who she is, just that she's "big" enough that I see her reviews on first pages of reviews for a lot of YA books) who has a list where she tallies all the diversity points a book has. Like, here's what she wrote for one review:

Diversity Rating: 0 – What Diversity?
Racial-Ethnic: 0
QUILTBAG: 0
Disability: 0
Intersectionality: 0

So this is at the top of her review, just after the "Full review on my blog! I received an ARC from the publisher!" So at first glance, to someone who isn't looking super carefully, this looks like she's absolutely panning this book... but it's a very positive review. I don't know, I'm all for people finding books about people like themselves/people they want to read about, but this feels... I mean, this book in question is set in the early Middle Ages in Southern France. It's not exactly going to be a cornucopia of diversity in that setting, not like a modern NYC setting would be. I don't know. *Shrug*

The_Ink_Goddess said:

HOWEVER! Fuck Voya. Holy shit, of course I picked the day to do this that Voya is blowing up their own paper. But, yeah, fuck them.

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YEAH that's unreal! Tr1st1na Wr1ght is in my debut group and we've been talking about this all day. SO disheartening. Their shitty response is much worse than the original offending line in the review, IMO.

I was making myself crazy with the whole 'stick to a genre' idea again. (Basically there's something I feel like writing but I'm not sure I'll want to write more than one or two books of this type.) Though looking at Mindy McGinnis’s GR page calmed me down somewhat, she has a post-ap duology, a gothic/historical mystery, a contemporary thriller and a fantasy all either released or lined up for release within a relatively short (for book publishing) period of time.

Liosse de Velishaf said:

But it did seem like it could provide some solid detail for a good dark contemp YA story. I'm just not sure if that line has been played out, as there have been a few well-received stories along those lines in the past few years. Also not sure if there would be enough of an audience for such a story. Anyone have any suggested reading or feeling about marketability for something like this?

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When I was a teen, I wasn't into older guys (I retained the childish impression of all things adult = boring so I'd rather date Peter Pan than Daddy-Long-Legs), so it's hard to imagine myself as the audience (unless the story is a thriller). Because I honestly think the majority of YA stories about romance are divided into
1) something that might happen or happened to the reader ("I can so relate")
2) something that will never happen ("tripping into a fountain bowl together with a beautiful prince of a small European country? I wish!")
But the older guy fantasy is super popular, so opening the girls' eyes to a darker side of it seems to be quite useful for their wellbeing.

The funny thing is that I'm one of those types who look like college students until they get wrinkly, so I can't tell how many times guys hit on me while being mistaken about my age--most of them seemed kinda creepy. Precisely because they were disappointed at their discovery. It wasn't just being attracted to my looks, they also wanted a certain type of personality to go with it, and that was usually not a very mature/independent personality.

However, I'm not sure about the importance of experience. It's more about confidence, in my opinion. If you don't like the way your (potential) boyfriend behaves, you are under no obligation to endure it, it doesn't matter how normal or traditional his behaviour is.

Liosse de Velishaf said:

Apparently he's sniffing around again, and she's more squicked out now than before, and is trying to distance herself. Unfortunately, and here's where my earlier comment about him having a position of authority in her community comes back around, he's going to be reffing at a sporting event she's participating in. So like, even if she wanted to make a scene about him being a creep, she'd have to be worried about how that might affect her position in her club sport league. Especially when she's been publicly interacting with him in what seems like a friendly manner. Yuck.

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Might be useful for her to lay out the groundwork then. Start distancing herself from him in public in a subtle but obvious manner, so later if she wants to make a scene, she can refer back to that time saying his actions crept her out so she got scared and tried to get out of interaction. That's actually typical: a female tries to put up with a male's nasty actions or words in secret and keep a friendly appearance, so when she finally explodes, people think she is the weird/unpleasant/strange one because it seems sudden and unreasonable.

Also curious about parental permission: I never had such an experience as a teen, but I can say with absolute confidence that if my parents tried to tell me who to date, I'd march out of the house right towards a date with the forbidden person. The rebellious age and so on. Actually giving me a permission (and purposefully giving our relationship a stable, adult, regular air) would be a much faster way to get me away from the guy than the romanticism of a secret and illicit affair.
My boyfriend meeting my dad on the porch before we go on an icecream and movie date? Yawn.
Me climbing out of my window in the middle of the night so my forbidden boyfriend can teach me to ride his bike? Yes, please.
Typical teen.

What is going on at Kirkus?

I used to do book reviews for them. They had strict guidelines on length (350 words) and to include good and bad, and be quotable. I don't remember anything about diversity, but I worked there before that was a hot topic.

Go figure my editor is doing things ass-backwards (re: the track changes debacle).

After nearly three weeks editing that novel for publication, I was eager to get back to my WIP, the one I wrote 500 words a day on for most of the summer. Yeah, no idea how to pick it up from here. I may have to back read a bit to see where I was going with this. I might find a mess in there because of that 500 word a day quota.

Oh, and I applied for a job as a library assistant on a whim, and actually got a response. It actually pays better than my editing day job, but I have to buy clothes and leave the house, so there is that. We'll see where this goes.

Windcutter said:

I was making myself crazy with the whole 'stick to a genre' idea again. (Basically there's something I feel like writing but I'm not sure I'll want to write more than one or two books of this type.) Though looking at Mindy McGinnis’s GR page calmed me down somewhat, she has a post-ap duology, a gothic/historical mystery, a contemporary thriller and a fantasy all either released or lined up for release within a relatively short (for book publishing) period of time.

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Been there. The focus n branding, especially genre branding, scares me a bit, given my eclectic genre interests.

When I was a teen, I wasn't into older guys (I retained the childish impression of all things adult = boring so I'd rather date Peter Pan than Daddy-Long-Legs), so it's hard to imagine myself as the audience (unless the story is a thriller). Because I honestly think the majority of YA stories about romance are divided into
1) something that might happen or happened to the reader ("I can so relate")
2) something that will never happen ("tripping into a fountain bowl together with a beautiful prince of a small European country? I wish!")
But the older guy fantasy is super popular, so opening the girls' eyes to a darker side of it seems to be quite useful for their wellbeing.

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As a guy, I don't have the societal pressure towards dating up. In fact, I think I've only ever been interested in one older woman, and it was a one year difference. But I did have a friend who was somewhat preyed on by a 21-year-old when he was 15. I think it gave him a horrible idea of what relationships would be like, and he treated some girls like crap until he found one who put a stop to his bullshit.

The funny thing is that I'm one of those types who look like college students until they get wrinkly, so I can't tell how many times guys hit on me while being mistaken about my age--most of them seemed kinda creepy. Precisely because they were disappointed at their discovery. It wasn't just being attracted to my looks, they also wanted a certain type of personality to go with it, and that was usually not a very mature/independent personality.

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I'm also one of those types. I've been mistaken for as young as fifteen when shaved, and most people guess three or five years under my real age. Can be less awkward as a guy, depending on circumstances.

However, I'm not sure about the importance of experience. It's more about confidence, in my opinion. If you don't like the way your (potential) boyfriend behaves, you are under no obligation to endure it, it doesn't matter how normal or traditional his behaviour is.

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But when you don't have a lot of experience, you may not know things are off, and so you may not have the confidence to speak up. Experience and confidence are I think two things that work best in combination.

Might be useful for her to lay out the groundwork then. Start distancing herself from him in public in a subtle but obvious manner, so later if she wants to make a scene, she can refer back to that time saying his actions crept her out so she got scared and tried to get out of interaction. That's actually typical: a female tries to put up with a male's nasty actions or words in secret and keep a friendly appearance, so when she finally explodes, people think she is the weird/unpleasant/strange one because it seems sudden and unreasonable.

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I don't see that happening. Apparently she loves to drop the heart emoticon on stuff he posts to her timeline, etc. Even though she told my friend she was working on the distancing thing. Personally, that seems like an easy first start to me if she insists on using several steps for it. Just use the thumbs up for awhile. Stop responding in general after a bit. Unfollow him and put him on her restricted list. Honestly it feels a bit petty to lay things out like that, but the dude is not gonna take the hint, assuming she actually wants him to and isn't pulling the wool over my friend's eyes, if she keeps hearting all his posts and shit. I'm more of a bridge-burner on creeps. But perhaps she likes the attention even if she doesn't want it to go back to where it was.

Also curious about parental permission: I never had such an experience as a teen, but I can say with absolute confidence that if my parents tried to tell me who to date, I'd march out of the house right towards a date with the forbidden person. The rebellious age and so on. Actually giving me a permission (and purposefully giving our relationship a stable, adult, regular air) would be a much faster way to get me away from the guy than the romanticism of a secret and illicit affair.
My boyfriend meeting my dad on the porch before we go on an ice-cream and movie date? Yawn.
Me climbing out of my window in the middle of the night so my forbidden boyfriend can teach me to ride his bike? Yes, please.
Typical teen.

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Well, maybe she just thought she liked the guy that much. What's the line from that Taylor Swift song? "When you're [seventeen] and someone tells you they love, you're gonna believe them"? As far as I know, her parents were super permissive, and she wasn't at all rebellious. Personally, I was never rebellious as a teenager. Perhaps that's because a good rebellion never made itself available, but I tend to think not every teenager goes through that phase. I understand the forbidden fruit argument intellectually, or from non-adolescent issues, but it was never part of my teenage experience.

Okay, VOYA, yeah that was ridiculous. Totally ruined their creditability in one day.

I don't have a strong opinion on Kirkus because I haven't read/don't read their reviews. Most of the books i read are because other authors say they are fantastic. I do want to know what forms of diversity are represented in a book and whether it is an own voices story. I'm more likely to read if that is the case. But I would like it to be done in a good manner. Like with the whole VOYA thing. I don't think anyone really had any problems knowing the MC was bi, just that it was put in the same sentence as the warning for mature content and swearing, like you have to warned against reading about a bisexual. Anyway, the publishing industry sure has a lot to learn right now.

As to my dad and his squicky dating tendencies: amen! He always made it sound like my sister and I were the ones that had the problem because we were being stuck up. But, just no. It was the start of the ruining of our relationship. I really began to see how selfish and self-centered he was. Like when my twins were hooked up to machines in the hospital and I spent every day wondering if this would be the one I lost one of them, he'd call me up, not ask about his grandsons, and then launch into some stupid story I cared nothing about. Finally had enough and exploded on him in the hospital. But I was the overwrought emotional one. After that he'd start every conversation asking about me or the kids BEFORE launching into a lengthy monologue about himself.

Beth, there was some chatter about the new Kirkus reviews on this thread back in July. I later went back and reread the original review and the 'snideness' didn't stand out anymore, probably because by then I understood this was a template they were using for all reviews. I have since looked at one or two more and I still don't like them--for all the reasons you mentioned.

RaggedEdge said:

I saw the strangest review from Kirkus Reviews for an upcoming YA novel. The reviewer introduced each main character by their attributes, like skin color, sexual orientation (if not hetero), even level of attractiveness. It had a tinge of snide. To me, although it was subtle, the reviewer really seemed to have an agenda on that end of things, like, here's another book between attractive white people with some minority side characters thrown in for novelty. They weren't keen on the execution, either, and it made me wonder how much the one influenced the other. I was rather appalled by that approach to a review, but I also wondered if we're going to see more of that kind of thing, so librarians and booksellers can choose based on that criteria if they want to. Has anyone seen anything like this before?

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Smiley0501 said:

Well Kirkus agreed to start listing the diversity aspects (like "black" "white" characters), so I guess they also agreed to do sexual orientation as well? Weird about the 'attractiveness' bit though......

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RaggedEdge said:

Interesting! In this particular review, it all sounded so awkward, but it would be hard to do well, I guess. To me, it was like focusing on the wrong things, like going backwards in the attempt to see people for what makes them interesting people, not what classification or label they fall under.

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Another face-to-face pitch, another full request. This is my puzzled face.

I also spent two solid hours working through the first chapters of two different manuscripts with a fellow freelance editor, which was fascinating. She was really detailed with her feedback and also told me to send over the full manuscript of the YA UF and the rewritten first chapter of the adult UF so she can read over them. I think I might end up hiring her.

I'm not sure why I'm having a magical effect on everyone at these conferences, but I... like it?

Sage said:

A little late, but OMG, the first draft of my Jack Frost story is done!

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Congrats! Good job.

Parametric said:

Another face-to-face pitch, another full request. This is my puzzled face.

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Nice!

jtrylch13 said:

As to my dad and his squicky dating tendencies: amen! He always made it sound like my sister and I were the ones that had the problem because we were being stuck up. But, just no. It was the start of the ruining of our relationship.

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I'm sorry... it sounds like you're better off with less of him in your life, but it still sucks when parents are like that.

Kaylinn57 said:

MorbidLaughing -

I've been making good progress on the revision mapping. I'm about halfway through the novel now. I probably won't get much time to work on it in the next week because we're leaving for vacation tomorrow. Wish me and Hubby luck on the 15 hour drive. I think Baby Girl will do okay, but she is a baby so it's impossible to know for sure.

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I think I'll try the questioning thing or looking at other cultures. I tried to model my world after ours but with powers and I ended up with all these unanswered questions. How was your vacation by the way? Hope it went well.

Liosse de Velishaf said:

As a guy, I don't have the societal pressure towards dating up.

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I think it's getting more subtle now anyway.

But if the girl dislikes him, why heart emoticons? I'd say that's a pretty mixed message if she wants him to stay away.

Re: teenage rebellion, yeah, depends on the individual temper. And the authority issues or the lack of them.

Liosse de Velishaf said:

Been there. The focus n branding, especially genre branding, scares me a bit, given my eclectic genre interests.

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And also makes me somewhat nervous about series. Like, writing the first book of a potential trilogy seems like an incredible commitment because if it sells then it means I'm mostly working on this and only this for the next 3 or 4 years. Because publishing other books in between a series... not many authors are doing that, at least not YA authors.
Adding the market concerns to this... ugh. I did a huge rework on my YA fantasy but now I'm insecure about redoing the draft because fantasy seems to be on the decline so I might end up like all those authors who wrote dystopia right when it became its own walking dead. On the other hand, it is not getting any better so maybe it makes sense to hurry up while it's still alive.

I'm just not made for long running projects. I like them short. I'm a sprinter. A long time strategic goal, yes, many times yes, but my tactical approach is a burst, not a burn. (The logical answer would be to write short standalone books, but nearly every time I get a new idea it's something like Game of Thrones.)

Parametric said:

Another face-to-face pitch, another full request. This is my puzzled face.

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See, they are exciting

Sage said:

A little late, but OMG, the first draft of my Jack Frost story is done!

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Congratulations!
I like the wordplay with their names. So cute.

Of course, I don't know enough about the plot of your story, but maybe it has something to do with the inner conflict too? Do things change more for Jack during the final part? Is it somehow more crucial for him?

I have a bit of a similar problem right now, I pitched MC vs some opponents who are simply too powerful for her. So she is either escaping them or having an ally deal with them, and the only saving grace is that she is still getting closer to her goal, so it's not just mindless avoiding.

Speaking of the gender thing: I had a story in which a girl (MC):
- sets out to save a boy
- fights vs a male villain and wins
- is the only one left standing in the final battle (her boy LI stayed behind to fight the rearguard)
- saves said boy LI who is kidnapped by a twist-revealed second villain after he takes down the rearguard and gets wounded

To this I should add that LI is the only human character in a secret underworld of paranormal creatures (the ms was urban fantasy) and he manages to hold his own against most of them--and still he was being called a weakling by the readers.

Anyway, congratulations again! This should be celebrated!

I write in various genres, but now that my YA fantasy has done fairly well I'm feeling the pressure to finish the sequel (it's supposed to be a trilogy). So I definitely understand the trepidation there because I'm living it at the moment. I think part of my problem is I get bored easily, even with my own work. That's made it more difficult to market myself, too. Ultimately this trilogy thing should be good for me (my career/brand/whatever), but actually doing it is really tough.

Parametric said:

Another face-to-face pitch, another full request. This is my puzzled face.

I'm not sure why I'm having a magical effect on everyone at these conferences, but I... like it?

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You have something they want. Congrats on another full request!

Sage, congrats on finishing the first draft. You'll work out those problems later, although I like the sound of pulling off the dual POV making it really epic.

Windcutter said:

But if the girl dislikes him, why heart emoticons? I'd say that's a pretty mixed message if she wants him to stay away.

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My thoughts exactly. Even if the post itself is interesting, it's easy to confuse enthusiasm for that with enthusiasm for the poster.

And also makes me somewhat nervous about series. Like, writing the first book of a potential trilogy seems like an incredible commitment because if it sells then it means I'm mostly working on this and only this for the next 3 or 4 years. Because publishing other books in between a series... not many authors are doing that, at least not YA authors.
Adding the market concerns to this... ugh. I did a huge rework on my YA fantasy but now I'm insecure about redoing the draft because fantasy seems to be on the decline so I might end up like all those authors who wrote dystopia right when it became its own walking dead. On the other hand, it is not getting any better so maybe it makes sense to hurry up while it's still alive.

I'm just not made for long running projects. I like them short. I'm a sprinter. A long time strategic goal, yes, many times yes, but my tactical approach is a burst, not a burn. (The logical answer would be to write short standalone books, but nearly every time I get a new idea it's something like Game of Thrones.)

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I don't mind long-running projects, but I'd hate to get locked into one project by success when I'd been planning to move on.

Congratulations, Sage!

On the topic of series, I would love to write one at some point, but it's a huge commitment. Plus, most of my series ideas have a science fiction bent to them, and I'm not especially strong at the moment at writing anything science fiction or fantasy-related (one of the reasons why I enjoy writing contemporary YA). Perhaps someday though. I'd love to write something with an epic scope to it.

I just finished the second draft of my manuscript, which is a huge weight off my shoulders. I printed out a copy and have been proofreading with a pen, which has allowed me to find a lot of extraneous and/or awkward wording to cut. It is truly amazing how much stuff I've been able to tighten up now that I'm no longer staring at it on a computer screen.

I remembered again how much I loved the early portions of the story... hopefully I still feel this good about it when I reach the later, more recently written sections lol. I'm still angsting about the length though. Even with cutting a lot of my original plot, the second draft came in at an eye-watering 91k, which as I understand it, is noticeably above what most contemporary YA is. I'm hoping to buy back some of those words by cutting as much extra wording and sentences as possible while proofreading, but that will only get me so far.

Sage - Congratulations on finishing that first draft! I never feel so wonderful as I do when a 1st draft is done!

Para - You must have some magic face-to-face power! Congrats and good luck on those fulls.

Parents - They're still part of my life but I've put them in a place in my heart and brain where they no longer hurt me (most of the time). Sometimes you've got to protect yourself.

As far as writing goes, I'm still struggling with time. It's ridiculous. I have an agent. I've passed a hurdle, a big one, but I'm actually dedicating less time not more to my career because of demands of family. And the guilt of putting myself first is preventing me from telling them that they need to back off. (plus my kids are little.) I almost exploded on my husband when I asked him for help in getting our teen son a suit because I've never bought one before and his flippant response was "Just take him to Detroit." Um, Detroit is 2 1/2 hours away. So I should spend 5 hours driving to get my son a suit because you can't be bothered to help me? So I asked Facebook and other Mom's stepped in to help. They knew of places nearby. A little part of me was hoping the suit would be like $300 so when hubs saw the bill he'd say something and I could tell him that if you can't help when I ask, you deal with a horrible bill. But it was reasonably priced. Anyway, that's my whining rant for the morning.

Parametric said:

Another face-to-face pitch, another full request. This is my puzzled face.

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Totally your charming accent But really, yay of the request!

Sage said:

But that's a problem for Future Sage. Tonight I'll just dance around saying, "I finished the first draft!"

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Yay! Let Future Sage worry in the future. Draft finishing is one of those awesome things that shouldn't be spoiled!

jtrylch13 said:

A little part of me was hoping the suit would be like $300 so when hubs saw the bill he'd say something and I could tell him that if you can't help when I ask, you deal with a horrible bill. But it was reasonably priced. Anyway, that's my whining rant for the morning.

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Haha the rare instance when "it was reasonably priced" is a let down... I don't think asking for some time to yourself is unreasonable. Everyone needs it now and then. Do you have any committed time to yourself out of the house? (one of my nanos who had a very busy family life continued to use our nano meet up time as her designated writing time after November ended, she just told everyone that it was her writing group night, and would drive to another town and write (whether the rest of us joined her or not.))

I'm leaving for vacation today! Between the trip and NY ComiCon, I'll be scarce for the next two weeks. I'm so behind on beta'ing, and haven't touched my MS in like a month (it was a break, and then the betas, and now... yeah) so my brain needs a little recharging. If I get wifi while I'm gone, I'll see if I can check in. Otherwise, everyone have an awesome two weeks. I'll throw a penny in a fountain for our writing careers

Coffee - I have three days a week that is supposed to be my writing days (8-3) but between doctor's appointments, school parties, sick kids, etc. there's always something that is interfering. Plus there's also eating, showering, workout that fits into that time too. I used to have 4 days, but the schedule changed. I might have to add another day in there but there's the added guilt of sending kids to daycare. Anyway, I need to do some time management basically. Have fun with your trip and ComicCon! Sounds like a blast.

Question: I went to Writing In The Margins and selected a cultural expert reader from their database to approach about reading my MS. I sent the email 17 days ago and haven't heard anything back. I feel like that is plenty of time to get back to someone about paid editing services, but am I wrong? Maybe Para can give me a heads up on this. Should I wait longer to hear if she is interested in reading or should I move on to another person in the database?

JTR - I hear you about that 8 - 3 period of time. It sounds like a lot of hours but by the time you add exercise and eating to that, then the times that the kids have appointments or are sick, or even things like friends who really need someone to listen to them, it soon eats into that time. Mine is more like 9 - 2.30 because I need to get to school that early if I'm picking the kids up to get a decent park - it's just not long enough! My kids are on school holidays now so that's the writing time out the window for now...but I keep telling myself that soon they won't be around to spend time with in the holidays so I'm trying to make the most of it - writing will be there once they're gone.

Enjoy your holiday, Coffeebeans!

Well done on the first draft, Sage.