Must Be 21 to Buy ... Cigarettes?

GeorgeK

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This may be off topic but:

As far as being safer, here's a big one, no one has gotten cancer for weed. There are negative effects, no doubt, but death isn't one of them. Unlike with cigarettes. That alone makes it safer.
That's impossible to say with any accuracy. Not studying something is not a null proof. The little bit it has been suggested pot may have 10x the amount of carcinigens, however that was a study done pretty long ago not much after Reefer Madness so take that with a grain or two of salt. Any irritant in sufficient quantity at a susceptible site can lead to cancer. Smoke is an irritant. If you had someone smoking pot in anything resembling the quantities that cigarette smokers do, I'm sure that it would lead to cancer in some of them.
 

Jersey Chick

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If the law says no buying at 18, rather than no smoking at 18, it's only a ferry or cab ride to Jersey.
IN NJ, you have to be 19 to buy cigarettes. AFAIK, we don't have a minimum smoking age, though.

I have no idea why the powers that be chose 19, but they did.

I quit smoking 6 years ago and at that time, cigarettes were closing in on $10/pack. People here were making weekly trips to Delaware because they were so much cheaper there. I have no idea what they charge now, but it's got to be up there.
 

K.B. Parker

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Disclaimer: I'm a smoker (unfortunately)...

... But I would not have a problem whatsoever with outlawing tobacco nationwide. It's a disgusting habit and it's why I only smoke around other smokers and never in public.
 
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GeorgeK

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Disclaimer: I'm a smoker (unfortunately)...

... But I would not have a problem whatsoever with outlawing tobacco nationwide. It's a disgusting habit and it's why I only smoke around other smokers and never in public.
Thank you.

As an aside, I don't know why they haven't come out with a good tasting nicotine gum? Or a beverage...Ciggy Pop...All the nicotine you crave without the carcinogens, fire hazard or second hand smoke issues.
 
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Wilde_at_heart

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With Mayor Bloomberg and his supporters, it's good to keep in mind this, from C.S. Lewis ―

“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”
 

Cyia

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at that time, cigarettes were closing in on $10/pack.

I find this so strange.

Down here, even a pack of name brand cigarettes costs less than $5, and that's after the tax hike that had people heading for Oklahoma because they're cheaper than that.
 

Jersey Chick

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In this state, there is tax upon tax upon tax on cigarettes. A carton will cost something $100. It's ridiculous and I don't understand how people can really even afford it these days (although, back when I smoked, there was always money for cigarettes.)
 

robjvargas

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I gag when I hear what people are paying for cigarettes. Quite literally more of the price is taxes/fees than is the actual retail price.

Anyway, if they can die for the country, if they can vote, if we can charge them as adults in crimes, they should be free to buy any otherwise legal product there is.
 

jimmymc

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I don't hear any talk about outlawing alcohol. Drinking kills many more innocents by far than second hand smoke. But, drinking is the "in" thing and smoking is "out".

Also, the second hand smoke theory is an unproven product of mass hysteria. Not all lung cancer is caused by smoking or being around smoking... and, yes, smoking "weed" is just as dangerous as smoking cigarettes and it's stupid to think otherwise. Both are considered carcinogens.

Yes, smoking is a disgusting habit, but so are a lot of other things.
 

cornflake

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I don't hear any talk about outlawing alcohol. Drinking kills many more innocents by far than second hand smoke. But, drinking is the "in" thing and smoking is "out".

Also, the second hand smoke theory is an unproven product of mass hysteria. Not all lung cancer is caused by smoking or being around smoking... and, yes, smoking "weed" is just as dangerous as smoking cigarettes and it's stupid to think otherwise. Both are considered carcinogens.

Yes, smoking is a disgusting habit, but so are a lot of other things.

As above, we tried the ouitlawing alcohol thing. People also aren't outlawing cigarettes, just forcing people to keep their carcinogens to themselves.

As to the 'unproven product of mass hysteria' do you have anything to back up that all the many, many studies showing links between second-hand smoke and cancer and other respiratory illnesses are wrong or questionable? There's a LOT of science there, spanning a long time.
 

Don

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Agorism FTW!
They tried banning alcohol. Prohibition was a colossal failure.

Except for the Mafia. They loved it.
There were a lot of "legitimate" careers built on prohibition too. Elliot Ness might never have become a household name! Let's not forget ol' Harry J. Anslinger, either, perhaps one of the finest political opportunists to grace our fair history. He surged to the head of the anti-drug crusaders when Prohibition ended and he found his job in jeopardy. One of the all-time-greats at changing horses in the middle of a stream, he landed solidly on his feet with a cushy government job. Much of the pain and misery the War on Drugs has visited on the population can be laid at his feet. His chains surely far outweigh those of Jacob Marley.

Harry Jacob Anslinger (May 20, 1892 – November 14, 1975) held office as the assistant prohibition commissioner in the Bureau of Prohibition, before being appointed as the first commissioner of the U.S. Treasury Department's Federal Bureau of Narcotics (FBN) on August 12, 1930.

Anslinger held office an unprecedented 32 years in his role as commissioner until 1962. He then held office two years as US Representative to the United Nations Narcotics Commission. The responsibilities once held by Anslinger are now largely under the jurisdiction of the U.S. Office of National Drug Control Policy. He died at the age of 83 of heart failure in Altoona, Pennsylvania.
 

benbradley

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Seems silly. Are people meant to know bettervif they are3 years older?
As one might expect, these laws are pretty much arbitrary, and are changed due to political wind.
Isn't that why the US reduced the voting age to 18? Because the enlistment age was 18 and people (men, really) could die for their country but were not allowed to vote.



I gather there is a difference, yes. And if one is going to draw a line, it has to be somewhere.
Well, of course a line has to be somewhere. I think that's some sort of tautology.

This was indeed changed due to Viet Nam protests and the drafting of 18 year olds at the time, though the article below on the 26th Amendment says arguments for this were also made on WWII.

"Eve of Destruction" was one of the most popular songs of 1965 (I was age 8, heard it on the radio and found it quite scary) and it surely had its influence - the line is "You're old enough to kill, but not for votin':"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfZVu0alU0I

The voting age (in US Federal elections) was change from 21 to 18 in 1971:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-sixth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution


Around that time most States in the US lowered their drinking age to 18:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._history_of_alcohol_minimum_purchase_age_by_state

But then immediately after this 1984 law regarding Federal Highway Funds (from the article, "a state with a minimum age below 21 would be subjected to a ten percent decrease in its annual federal highway apportionment"), states raised their drinking age back to 21:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Minimum_Drinking_Age_Act

QFT

This is like a textbook example of political creep. A slow erosion of individual liberties.
This "what is an adult" thing involving laws is bizarre. The 26th Amendment is solely about voting in Federal elections, but as I recall it effectively made the "legal age of adulthood" where you could sign legal contracts, take others to court and be taken to court also change to 18. I presume it was the States that changed all that in response to the Amendment passing. Maybe someone else could research that.

But it's certainly inconsistent that one can do these legal things as a legal adult at 18, yet not legally buy a beverage/substance that other adults can buy. I guess not even the ACLU wants to go up against a law involving Federal Highway Funds.
Where are the laws raising the price and taxes on cigars? Oh, that's right, rich people smoke cigars, so lets tax what the poor people smoke.
?????
Of the "rich people" I've known, I only recall one who smoked cigars. I smoked Swisher Sweets for a little while in college, and I was definitely NOT rich.

But other than these two anecdotes, maybe we need some real data on rates of cigar smoking vs. wealth and vs. income. If you haven't seen the stickies for P&CE, it's well in line to ask for data supporting any claim made here, and we often do that.
Thank you.

As an aside, I don't know why they haven't come out with a good tasting nicotine gum? Or a beverage...Ciggy Pop...All the nicotine you crave without the carcinogens, fire hazard or second hand smoke issues.
I can imagine the tobacco companies would stomp flat any such idea (and likely have done so) by whatever legal (and perhaps other) means available to them. Current nicotine gum and patches only get by because they're prescription-only and considered medicine.

And isn't nicotine a fairly powerful, as in dangerous, drug? Would a substantially larger dose than a heavy smoker intakes be dangerous? I recall it increases heart rate, though perhaps other things in cigarette smoke contribute to that as well.
There were a lot of "legitimate" careers built on prohibition too.
And a whole industry, as well: NASCAR.
 

Jersey Chick

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I don't know if I could find the stats to back it up, but I swear I read somewhere once that nicotine is more addictive than heroin. Gah, I'll have to go look it up when I get the chance.

Don't know anything about cigars, other than they stink. Although, in the Bahamas, I did try a Cuban cigar, just to say I did. Vanilla-dipped and still awful. :)

ETA: My Google-fu didn't let me down. This is an old article (dating back to 1987) and I think it's the one I read...
 
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Lyra Jean

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You don't need a prescription to purchase tobacco patches, gum, or lozenges. They are all over the counter. You do have to be 18 at least here in Florida to purchase them.

Chantix which is a drug that is supposed to help you stop smoking is prescription only and it's insanely expensive and available only through prescription. Good luck getting it if you have a history of depression or mental illness though.

Perhaps they are prescription only in other states though.
 

Jersey Chick

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They were just talking about this on the local talk radio station.

As for smoking-cessation products, I think you have to be 18 here to buy them, (I don't know. I was in my 30s when I quit) and I think NY has a program to help people who want to quit be able to afford them (which again, I think is funny, because here, it's actually now cheaper to quit than it is to smoke, so if you can't afford the patch, how on earth are you affording the cigs?) but I don't know if NJ has a similar program for the patch/gum etc.
 

jimmymc

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As to the 'unproven product of mass hysteria' do you have anything to back up that all the many, many studies showing links between second-hand smoke and cancer and other respiratory illnesses are wrong or questionable? There's a LOT of science there, spanning a long time.

Since when can you trust science or any scientist that's on the payroll.

I'm not advocating smoking or against drinking in any form, just the ludicrous argument.

As for alcohol, my Grandfather's brother operated a still well into the sixties, a profession that seems to be regaining it's popularity.
 
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cornflake

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Since when can you trust science or any scientist that's on the payroll.

I'm not advocating smoking or against drinking in any form, just the ludicrous argument.

As for alcohol, my Grandfather's brother operated a still well into the sixties, a profession that seems to be regaining it's popularity.

Since when can you trust science? Really?

Scientists on what payroll?

As to nicotine gum, patches, cigarettes (the smokeless, nicotine ones that produce water vapor), etc., in NY they're all over-the-counter as well.

New York City has and has had for years a program that gives out free patches, and even the actual prescription pill (Chantix? Something like that), and offers group therapy sessions, a therapist you can call, etc., for anyone who wants to stop smoking but can't on their own. I know a couple people who've taken advantage of the offerings and it's worked for them. One did the patch, one got the pill, I think one did some of the therapy stuff the other just wanted the product. You don't have to engage in any of the other stuff. Nor, just btw, are there any income or any other requirements I'm aware of to get the cessation aids or help. It's for anyone wants it.

New York also has the highest cig prices in the nation - I don't know what they are specifically as I don't smoke, but I see signs promoting $12.95 a pack at the newsstand near me as if it's a good deal.

The prices have pretty unquestionably led to significant declines in smoking rates. There are other coordinating factors - restriction of smoking in public places, in conjunction with fines ($50 fine now for smoking in a public park), graphic ads showing people with medical problems from smoking, etc. So says a CDC study, an article on the effect of price hikes on smoking nationwide, and a more recent study.

New York's cigarette tax of $4.35 per pack, the highest in the nation, has helped reduce both adult and youth smoking by more than twice as much as the nation as a whole. While the study's numbers do not show a decline in smoking among low-income New Yorkers during the period covered by the study, other studies do show that raising cigarette taxes reduces smoking among low-income populations. In addition, this study shows that low-income New Yorkers smoke at much lower rates than their national counterparts...

From 2003 to 2010 (the period examined in the study), New York reduced adult smoking by 28 percent, from 21.6 percent to 15.5 percent who currently smoke. In contrast, the national smoking rate fell by only 11 percent, from 21.6 percent to 19.3 percent.

From 2003 to 2011, New York reduced high school smoking by 38 percent, from 20.2 percent to 12.5 percent who currently smoke. In contrast, the national high school smoking rate declined by 17 percent, from 21.9 percent to 18.1 percent.

The study also finds that low-income New Yorkers smoke at much lower rates than their national counterparts. In New York, smoking rates ranged from 10.1 percent for those making more than $60,000 annually to 24.3 percent for those making less than $30,000. Nationally, smoking rates ranged from 12.2 percent for the high income group to 33.7 percent for the low-income group...

New York has reduced the number of adult smokers by 664,000, prevented 305,000 kids from becoming smokers, prevented 265,000 smoking-caused deaths and saved $11.6 billion in long-term tobacco-related health care costs.
 
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Fruitbat

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I like it. The general public does get stuck with a huge financial burden from the unnecessary health problems smoking causes. Why not at least make the legal age the same as it is for alcohol and cut down on some of that.
 
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GeorgeK

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"Eve of Destruction" was one of the most popular songs of 1965 (I was age 8, heard it on the radio and found it quite scary)
Interesting...I heard it and thought, "Wow! That'd be cool! Of course I grew up in a sort of rapturist cult though
And isn't nicotine a fairly powerful, as in dangerous, drug? Would a substantially larger dose than a heavy smoker intakes be dangerous? I recall it increases heart rate, though perhaps other things in cigarette smoke contribute to that as well.
Some call it the peasants' cocaine. Nicotine in high enough doses is lethal, but then so is water and even oxygen. People who want a higher dose can simply smoke three cigarettes at a time. (Now waiting for the smokers here to try it and write back, "See it didn't kill ME!" ) From the social cost standpoint where the real medical costs come in are caring for the cancer patients. Some guy in his 50's who OD's on nicotine and dies of cardiac arrest is far cheaper to society and leaves more assets for his family than the 60 year old who gets cancer and goes through the gamut of treatments for 1-2 years before dying.

Interestingly Sudaphed here is technically legal and OTC, but requires not only a prescription but also a "personal relationship," with the pharmacist from whom one buys it. Meth heads have no trouble getting it, but a retired physician battling a sinus infection can't even get it with a prescription unless the pharmacist on duty knows you personally. And if they do, what they do is pull out the OTC box, tape a Rx label on it and double the price
 

Jersey Chick

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Here, you can buy Sudafed OTC, but it's not out on the shelf. You have to ask for it - IIRC, there are envelopes with tickets in them on the shelf, next to where the non-meth-ingredient cold meds are sold and you take the ticket either to the front or the pharmacy department. Then, you have to produce a driver's license and sign in a binder, and you're limited to x amount in a three month period. Of course, what's to keep me from going to any other pharmacy, or to the grocery store, or have someone get it for me, is beyond me.
 

cornflake

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Here, you can buy Sudafed OTC, but it's not out on the shelf. You have to ask for it - IIRC, there are envelopes with tickets in them on the shelf, next to where the non-meth-ingredient cold meds are sold and you take the ticket either to the front or the pharmacy department. Then, you have to produce a driver's license and sign in a binder, and you're limited to x amount in a three month period. Of course, what's to keep me from going to any other pharmacy, or to the grocery store, or have someone get it for me, is beyond me.

Some states have electronic databases that connect the info and are supposed to ping if you've reached your purchase limit or whatever. Ones that don't... :Shrug: