Looking for advice on balancing my magic system

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BlackBriar

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Loop, I will have to look into the articles; I haven't had a chance yet. But that is good advice nonetheless and I thank you for it. I don't understand the thinking of most authors; and yes perhaps I'm going a bit overboard, in which case I'll try to tone it down, but as I said I can't stand not having any idea of how magic works. I like deep lore, not mystery, hence why I'm being so insistent on explaining it.

Take no offense, but like I said, fanboy writer. I did the same with my first wip and trust me, my system was as complex as yours (based on... nah still want to keep it secret :p). It's still a good magic system (though needs simplifying), but if I do revive it, it will be in the background and no more explained than the magic in Harry Potter.

The thinking of most authors is simple. They're writing for readers too, not only themselves. Your goals may be different. :)

I'm out. Good luck!
 

Torgo

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There's an old story about a young chap who goes out in the world to seek his fortune. He befriends a wizard and - I dunno - mows his lawns for awhile, but eventually decides he should go home to see his dear old ma.

The wizard says - don't leave empty-handed! Take this pouch. Every time you open it, you will find a gold florin, a silver shilling, and a copper penny inside. That should sort out the whole grinding poverty deal you guys have going on.

Thanks! says the lad. He sets off home, and along the way stops at an inn for the night. A flagon of your best ale, barkeep! he says, and the feather bed for me. The barkeep eyes him quizzically. Our young rapscallion is possibly not of the best. Can you pay? he asks. And the youth does the pouch trick.

That's a nice wallet, says the barkeep. Oh, it's magic, says the kid. There's always money in there. So of course while he's sleeping off the ale, the barkeep steals in to his room and switches it with a normal one.

When our hero returns home, there's his old ma, boiling a few sickly beans on the stove. He chucks them out of the door. Don't worry, ma, he says, it's feather beds from here on out! And he attempts to demonstrate the magic pouch, but it doesn't work, obvs, and she gives him a clip round the ear.

He goes back to see the wizard, who does some sighing about the magic wallet and rustles up a magic tablecloth. Here you go, son, he says, and he spreads it on a rock. Just say, grub's up! and - well, the tablecloth suddenly produces fine delicacies, viands, vittles, horse doofers and a selection of small plates from El Bulli.

You know this kid is a doofus, though, so he stops at the same inn. Oh don't worry about your sad little roast fowl, says the kid, just bring me a beer and I'll show you good eatin'. He does the trick and - you're ahead of me here I can tell - the barkeep waits until he's getting nine hours of the dreamless to switch up the tablecloths. And lo, he returneth home, and casts the even weedier beans in the pot into the outer darkness, and the tablecloth faileth, and there is a moaning and a clipping of ears.

CUT TO: Back at the wizard's gaff. You can imagine, if you will, the wizard fixing our Picaro with a minatory gleam in his eye. Here's a big stick, he says, handing the same to the kid. What you ought to do is, take it home - all the way home - and say 'Stick, let me have it!'. Wait to you get the whole way home, now. Yeah, I mean it kid. Read my lips. I'm going to pull the beard back so you can read my lips, in fact. Watch: Wait. Until. You. Get. Home. Do not, for instance, go round the corner from my cave to do this. OK? See you, don't let the griffon hit you in the ass on the way out.

So the chump goes round the corner and says, Stick! Let me have it!, and the stick beats the living crap out of him. Whack, whack, whack. It lays into him like Rush Limbaugh into a pinata full of Vicodin. The wizard, who has been watching, concealed behind an Ent and laughing his ass off, chooses a pause in the beating to wander into view. Oh, I forgot to say, when you're done with the stick, you just say Stick! that's enough of that! Say, are you OK?

The stick just lies there, so Yes, fine, thanks, says the kid. Oh, says the wizard, you're all dusty? You OK? Yeah, fine, says the kid. Well, happy trails! says the wizard. And remember what I said about not doing anything until you get home? The kid gives him a dirty look, but picks up his stick and staggers off.

He gets to the inn a sadder and a wiser youth. Orders some soup and a half of shandy. Back again? says the barkeep. Yes, says our hero. Been to, ah, visit your wizard pal again? He sounds like a swell guy. Yes, says our hero. Did he, er - give you anything? Stick, says the kid. This stick right here. What you do is, you address the Stick - you say 'Stick!' - and then you ask the stick to let you have it. Pretty, pretty damn magical, is what it is. OK? I'm going to bed. And he hauls himself up the stairs to the converted toilet that is his room for the night.

So the barkeep creeps in with a similar stick or shillelagh, and swaps them, and then steals off to the barn to test out the Awesome Dweomer, and it knocks seven shades of Scientology out of him. It tonks him from one end of the barn to the other. In comes the youth, who has been awakened by his piteous cries, and who swiftly notes the pouch and the tablecloth safely locked away in, let's say, some kind of glass-fronted cabinet or armoire. It doesn't matter why it's in the barn, shut up.

Oh, hey! Nice evening for a stroll. Enjoying the stick? the kid yells. Aargh! the barkeep gargles. You may now improvise a long amusing dialogue between the two, with stick-beatings, which I shall not attempt to reproduce owing to a earlier, inadvisable, stylistic choice about the punctuation of speech. It wasn't really working with the wizard that last time, huh. So anyway, the kid gets his stuff back, and he calls off the stick, and to avoid suggesting that beatings are correlated with increased sagacity let's say the barkeep learns no lesson, and is sadder but not wiser, and later is clipped by the Mob when he is found to be skimming on the numbers receipts.

So the kid goes home and there is much rejoicing and magic and stuff (there is optionally a coda in which we allow the stick to beat up Ma, possibly as a kind of corrective for the ear-clipping earlier, but it seems like that's slightly off karmically, and we wonder at any editor who would include it; I'm looking at you, Professor Calvino.)

MORAL: A wizard did it.
COROLLARY: This isn't the kind of story where *how* the wizard did it is remotely important. There are of course many others.
VERY SALIENT: This.
 

Rhea

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I can't stand not having any idea of how magic works. I like deep lore, not mystery, hence why I'm being so insistent on explaining it.

For you as a writer or for you as a reader?

If it's the former, go ahead, develop your system, hone it, relish on it, but leave most of it out of your story - the readers, unless they're researching magical systems in fiction for their thesis, won't be interested in detailed descriptions of why exactly the commoners don't use magic, though it's readily available, why some spells are stronger than the others, etc.

If the mechanics of the magic system are important to you as a reader - read about them, compare, analyse, and then write your story, leaving out your analysis and detailed descriptions.

I said it before and I say it again - readers are intelligent. You give them a few hints and they fill in the blanks on their own. The explanation of magic is your you, not for them.
 

Charging Boar

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Torgo, that post was so enjoyable to read, thank you for making that.
 

The Last Man

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I am going to use The Lord of the Rings as an example throughout my post.

Magic, realistically, doesn't need to be something which is measured. Your mana system is interesting for a video game; but if I were to read a book that stated a character had a certain amount of mana to utilize and then reminded me exactly how much mana that character has when it is used, I would put the book down and never read it again. You can use that system if you want, but don't pretend there's a mana bar in the top corner of the reader's imagination. They want to read a book, not a game. If you describe how its use physically affects the characters then you can get a much more natural and realistic view of what is happening. Also, I would stay away from calling the source of your magic "mana" since mana is a type of mythical food.

Don't ever tell the reader what magic can do; show them. We never see Gandalf say "I can only use this much magic and so I will lose half my mana if I perform this action," we are shown that when he uses his power he can become fatigued. This gives a clear sense that his power is limited.

Another point I would like to make is that, while Tolkien not once states the limitations of Gandalf's abilities, we can easily infer them. He can command living things to do certain actions. For example, he tells the Balrog that it cannot pass, and so the Balrog stops. He later tells the Witch King who is attempting to enter the city of Minas Tirith "You cannot enter here," and the Witch King stops as well. He also tells Saruman, "Your staff is broken," which is a non-literal command. Saruman's staff immediately explodes, signifying that Saruman now lacks power. We can easily infer that Gandalf has the ability to command these beings to obey him to an extent; but it is made apparent to use by his use of these "spells" that while he can command them to stop and come no further, he does not have unlimited authority over them.Nobody asks why Gandalf doesn't tell the Balrog to kill itself because he clearly lacks that authority.

In another scene Gandalf shoots a light from his hands to keep the Nazgul away. The extent of his power is clearly shown to use, in that he can prevent the evil creatures from coming close to him, but clearly is unable to destroy them, which he would have done if he had the opportunity to do so.

Don't tell the reader about your magic and its limitations; show him.
 

LordMegatron

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For you as a writer or for you as a reader?

Reader. Maybe I've been reading the wrong stories, but many I've read just describe the effect and basically "it happened. Deal with it." It's especially annoying if you have all these weird chants, rituals, "prices," etc. without having the slightest hint of what's causing it. I don't expect to be Merlin's apprentice, but some backstory is appreciated.

Torgo, funny. I hope I don't seem offended, especially to you Loop, I'm pretty thick-skinned with criticism. I'm anything but perfect and you guys are being very nice about it and pointing out legitimate flaws.

Clearly, The Last Man, I can't explain things. So to emphasize: the limits are purely implied. I'll kill two limits with one sentence: the archers were barely within sight, high on the cliff. Cari considered her options; she could blast them with fire, but the risk was too great--they were too far away for it to be effective, and she was too tired to complete a far-reaching spell. She knew she had to either get in close or find a different way.

Also, Gandalf had authority? I always implied that as more of a "go ahead punk: Make. My. Day!" sort of threat than actual power over other beings. Also in the Hobbit he completely wasted dozens of Orcs, including their chief and doesn't do something similar in LOTR, oddly enough. The main limit I personally saw was seeing he's powerful, but not invincible.


Also, another fail on my part, especially for not seeing 2 pages (duh!), I edited my last post. So I'm going to rewrite it here, especially since these last few posts have changed my view a bit. Starting: I had a long day to really consider what you guys have said and taken it to heart. I edited my post in the first page (last post) and I'm going to repost it here...sorry if you already read it. First, Loop, you have some interesting points I need to consider more deeply, those articles especially.

Guys, I know I probably seem stubborn (heck I probably am) and your advice may seem to be falling on deaf ears but I assure you it isn't. In fact, I've been pondering your advice a lot today and I'm going to be making some major changes. I've thought of some new limits, such as magic taking a longer time and amount of focus to cast, though this is mostly implied but not directly stated. I'm also going to add some dangers. For example, I read a Blog a while ago talking about how some story (forgot which) features magic as an inevitably-corrupting and dangerous power, yet many crucial people--good and evil--can use it if they're careful and have a strong will or something like that. That would work nice for this book especially since some characters, especially Cari's husband and his clan, have problems which I could expand on to illustrate some of the potential dangers.

I'm also going to cool it on the descriptions but probably not delete them entirely. By that I mean I'm going to still try and give some lore to latch onto, and maybe some idea of how a spell is cast, but not give every gritty detail like I was before. And to be clear: even from the beginning 90% of the explanation is in action. This is a rough example: Cari let the mana flow from her body, reaching past her opponents, though it wasn't seeking them. It sought the heat, wrapping around it like hooked chains, securing it like a falcon securing its prey. She waited several seconds as the chains tigthened. Finally ready, she pulled back the mana, ripping the heat from the air. There was a brief blast of cold wind as the targets stood there, frozen in place. Cari took in a deep breath--can't do that again, she thought to herself, her knees almost buckling.

I should mention magic goes beyond elements; if necessary I could briefly (yes BRIEFLY, in a couple of sentences) explain what each means. Individual elements aren't separate branches unto themselves. The branches are mostly theoretical, describing either the effect or its nature (e.g. one branch uses mana from your own body, another uses Wights).
 

Wiskel

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EDIT:

Would it be acceptable, from the view of readers, to limit magic to a few people and mostly focus on said magic users?

Yes. Most books have a limited number of people with power / skill and focus on those.

BUT

The best piece of advice anyone can ever give you:

It's YOUR story. YOU know if it works or not.

Most posts on forums asking for advice suggest there's something the poster isn't comfortable with about their story.

What aren't YOU comfortable with?

You can have any system you like, but society or lore can provide the checks and balances you need.

So everyone can use magic, but they need to sleep. Perhaps the king has an army of ninjas and specialises in offing anyone who looks like a threat in their beds so no-one wants to look too powerful. This gives the king a reason to invent knives.

. . . and if you want a reason for the world to invent metalcraft then it still needs picks and shovels to get raw materials out of the ground.

Or there are some kind of vengeful ghosts who are attracted to magic use. Using a little is a gamble, using a lot is like firing a shotgun in a zombie movie: the ghosts will come running.

What would put me off a magic based story most is a balanced system.

So your fire mage and ice mage get into a fight. Why on earth should it take as much energy for each to cast an offensive spell?

Surely imbalance drives the society. If ice mages have an inherent advantage and are more dangerous then maybe 200 years ago an ice mage rose to power , acted like a dick and ever since ice mages have been kept in concentration camps for the protection of the people . . . or the king sets his army of ninjas on every one he can find as soon as the child manifests ice powers.

. . . or the ice mages are still in power and every powerful position is given to them. They happen to know they have a rock / paper / scissors type weakness to blood mages so they created the ninja army to hunt down blood mages.


My only point is balance is unnatural anywhere except game systems, and people who feel threatened usually try to stack the odds in their favour through laws, persecution and ninja armies.

You can have any magic system you like, just remember to spend more energy making it interesting than making it balanced.

Craig
 
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Fizgig

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LordM, I hope you find a way to balance this for your story :) I read you whole post and I honestly don't have any thoughts, mainly because I am having flashbacks to when I worked on a big ole MMO. Every time they introduced a new update with new powers, the entire balance of the game system would be wonky for a few weeks.

I do agree with everyone saying that I think the real answer isn't in some kind of inherent power balance, but in what you want the limitations and role of magic to be. Then, if you really want to have some larger understanding of how things work (hell you could even assign points of damage and a numerical cost to each spell, etc) I think you could use the larger idea about the role you want magic to play to guide you as you do that.

I know you were hoping for some specific feedback but I hope this helps.
 

BethS

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Have you read Brandon Sanderson's essay on types of magic systems? It might trigger something:

http://brandonsanderson.com/article/40/Sandersons-First-Law

Have to say, this is an excellent essay, as is the follow up of Sanderson's Second Law.

Basically, there's no single, correct way to write about magic. I like the way he differentiates between "soft" magic and "hard magic" and puts them on a continuum.

Ultimately, what matters far more than rules and systems is consistency.
 

Grenouille Bleue

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I’m done talking; if it helps here’s a quick summary of the current limits:[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
1) I always explain how magic works, and mentally make sure it’s balanceable.[FONT=&quot]

2) [/FONT]There’s consistency. There’s no Deus Ex Machinema endgame god-power, and the characters have a limited array of spells they have access to. I.e. they don’t learn new stuff that makes them the Avatar.[FONT=&quot]

3) [/FONT]Fatigue: All spells physically fatigue a person. The more magic they use, the physically weaker they become to the point they may faint (never die, only faint).[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]4) Anticipation: canceling a spell usually costs less energy than casting. Thus a smart opponent may well parry/riposte with his spells.

5) Visibility: Using magic, especially in excess, will send “ripples” through the world around you; a good fighter may be able to anticipate the spell and respond to it.
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]​

I didn't read the other answers, so maybe someone said it before, but you could also balance it with the casting time, ESPECIALLY since you mentioned that mages have to be well-versed in swordplay if they want to survive a battlefield.

This sounds to me like a great limitation, along with the others you mentioned. You want to cast THE ULTIMATE FIREBALL OF DESTRUCTION ? Well, not only will it be so taxing that you won't be able to do anything else, but you'll also have to stand like a fool with your hands in the air, mumbling some arcane stuff for like ten minutes.

On the other hand, when engaged by an opponent in swordplay, your mage might be able to cast some very quick, very simple spells that have little effect but might still tip the duel in his favor (make the opponent stumble, or make the wind blow in his face, or dodge a fatal wound).

Hope this helps :D
 

AnthonyHill

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I was writing a short fiction that involved a magic system but I couldn’t get my head around it. I thought I should get a stronger reign on it. You can actually study some magic systems from shows and manga.
 

LordMegatron

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Finally I’m back! Jeez here I thought I posted an update but apparently the post never made it d’oh! (*Headbash*) Everyone, I wish I had the words to describe how grateful I am; I know I probably say that a lot but I do really mean it. I was on hiatus for a bit; life is getting a little complex, but hopefully now that I have a grip and I’m getting back into writing I can be more active on the forum.

Well, in short I’ve come to a realization: after making some big plot changes (good ones mind you), I’ve seen just how flawed this system is. Even without my botched explanations (I mean people think there’s numbers above people’s heads? Massive fail on my part), the system just doesn’t fit the story anymore, even if it was perfected.

I’m working on a new system, paying close attention to what’s been said here. This time I’m being careful to let the static plot shape it, trying to make it more of a dangerous tool that may cause more problems than something to get out of tight spots. Following Sanderson’s First Law, this is hard magic so it will have visible limits, readers will have some idea of what it can do, etc. This story is going for huge mystery and wonder; I’m more interested in facts and connecting people to the world, the characters, and explaining why things happen the way they do.

The new system is much more deeply connected to the world, characters, and mythology. It has limits of course which will be apparent to the reader, but not just because I’m telling it to them for no reason—it’s part of the story and will play up some extra tension. I also think this new system is less complex but much deeper than the one I described here, meaning the effects and limits are more clear-cut and the explanations generally simpler. However there’s a lot more limits and dangers which are connected to the world and story as a whole.

In other words, I don’t sit down and give a 3 page explanation of the limits of magic and how it functions. The limits and dangers are more implied and shown. For example, in this new system magic is an innately corrupting force that requires immense caution when using it. Overuse may lead to a number of issues—you’ll attract Cambion (the world’s most dangerous monsters), can distort your view of reality, cause you to go insane, etc. Realize that’s just one limit of many, not all of which are even a flaw in the magic system.

Example in action: in one scene the main character isn’t careful and unleashes a powerful spell that kills many people; the massive release of life energy and mana attracts the most dangerous creature in the world: a Roc. In another she pushes herself too far and temporarily loses her grip on reality and begins fighting imaginary monsters, forcing her family to abandon their fights to protect her until she comes to. In another, she wants to cast a powerful spell but has to focus and introspect: remember uncle’s lessons, remember the full enchantments, yadda-yadda-yadda. It takes time and careful planning since each fight and environment is unique making your choice of spell and its execution important. She could attempt a spell by screwing around with raw mana and hope all goes well, but that’s a very dangerous assumption.

Again, these are just a few examples; I know the system sounds complex, and there’s a lot to it, but the mechanics are much simpler than before. It’s mainly the limits that are complex. However, most of it is explained as the story progresses not as an up-front info dump, much in the way I described a minute ago.
 

richcapo

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If devising a "system" is causing you too much stress or taking up too much of your time or whatever, then just have fun with it, I say. Write your story well and have a blast doing so, and the magic sorts itself out in my experience. Of course, I'm not a published author, so take my advice with a bag of salt.
 

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Okay, I haven't read the whole thread, so bad on me. But someone did mention fatigue. I've read books in which magic users have to eat a lot to keep up their weight, too.

The thing is, if you move X amount of weight for Y distance, it needs Z energy, whether it's done by human power, horse power, machine power, or magic. The energy has to come from somewhere. You might use magic to light your campfire, especially if the wood is wet, but you wouldn't use it to unroll your sleeping bag, because it's just as easy to do it by hand. Your magic-wielders get the power from somewhere--from the earth, from combining with one another, from lightning, I don't know. But it's never free. It has to cost.
 

Rufus Coppertop

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I think it's possible to get much too caught up in specific laws and formulae.

Write the story and show us some limitations of magic through action.

Character tries to cast a honking great fireball. Manages to set fire to a nearby bush.

Readers will understand that it has limitations.

BTW - Torgo. I love that story.
 

shaldna

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Hey everyone, I've been hanging around here for a little bit and finally decided to ask my first question. I know it’s a bit complex, and I ramble a lot, for which I apologize in advance. To try and cut down on length I left out some information I didn’t think was relevant to keep this as short as possible. If you need any information I’m happy to elaborate.

Alright, I’m looking for advice on a fantasy novel I’m working on, specifically on how to balance out the magic system and avoid making it overpowered.
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][/INDENT]

Okay, what always turns me off when it comes to magic is a system where there is no consequence and no balance. I tend to stick with the principle that every action has an equal and opposite reaction. If you stick with that then yo avoid having an overpowerful magic system.

So, what does casting magic cost your characters? Strength? Soul? Memories? Life expectancy? Something bad happening somewhere else?

Think back to Final Fantasy 7 - the more chracters use magic the more of their memories they lose until it reaches a point where they have to decide between holding on to their lives and using their abilities. It added moral and personal choices to a magic system that otherwise could have been too powerful.

So, what you need to ask yourself is what does your character have to lose by using magic.
 

little_e

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I feel a little late to the party, but I just wanted to note that there is absolutely nothing wrong with working out a convoluted magic system in your head to help guide with writing the story, if that's the sort of thing you enjoy doing. Ultimately, though, the important thing is all in the execution, which obviously none of us here can see. The magic system in Harry Potter, for example, is actually fairly complex, but little of the plot really hinges on the 'rules' of magic. And when you really think about it, there are all kinds of magical inconsistencies--like not noticing Pettigrew on the marauders' map, or not using truth serums on everyone, especially before locking them up in Azkaban. Magic in Harry Potter is completely broken and overpowered, actually, and people use it for all sorts of everyday activities like cooking and transportation and building houses, but the plots work because a combination of execution (the reader is just so caught up in the world and the fun of it that they don't think of the plot holes,) and because the characters themselves simply aren't very good at thinking up magical solutions to their problems. (Like, why would the Weasleys be poor when they have magical abilities?) And yet, Harry Potter has sold very well and people love it and the magic is a huge part of the books' appeal.

So don't over-stress it. The biggest limitations on your magic system are the ones which you, the author, arbitrarily impose. Magic exists in my world, for example, but my MC is not very good at it--he can set up a shield which deflects rocks and spears, but when bullets start flying, he runs. Your characters use as much magic as you let them use.

Good luck!
 

BoltzmannBrain

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I also prefer stories that define the rules clearly. There is an excellent article on tvtropes that explains this and has lots of examples:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagicAIsMagicA

I would also like to point out though that I think that the risk of the reader overanalyzing your system increases if you explain it in too much detail.
If a story has a wizard lifting an object with telekinesis without explanation, I can accept that because it's such a basic thing to do with magic. But if the author explains how exactly the telekinesis works, I start wondering why it can't be used differently, say to just push the opponent's brain out through his nose instead of throwing a boulder at him.
 

Jengajam

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The problem with something so detailed is that if you want to use an aspect of the magic as a plot point (especially a plot twist), the reader needs to have a good understanding of that aspect.

It sounds like a really interesting concept, but perhaps it would be best handled by explaining a simple branch of the magic and how it relates to the main character(s), while implying that there is more out there.

That way you keep the richness of your ideas without making getting to know your world hard work for readers.
 

Jengajam

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Sorry, I didn't see your latest reply so now my point may seem redundant.

Don't be afraid to make your world complex, as long as it's not hard to follow.

Earth's a complicated place, but most of us only know a few things about it in depth.
 
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