Obama administration backs prayer at local government meetings

William Haskins

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WASHINGTON — The Obama administration and congressional Republicans have found something to agree on: Town councils should be allowed to open their meetings with a Christian prayer.

Lawyers for the administration and two groups of lawmakers from the House and Senate, nearly all Republicans, separately made that argument in briefs to the Supreme Court this week. The high court should relax the constitutional limits on religious invocations at government meetings, they argued.

The case could lead to a major change in the law on religion that would go well beyond prayers at council meetings.

<snip>

Looked at through the eyes of a "reasonable observer," the town's prayer policy "must be viewed as an endorsement of … a Christian viewpoint," the U.S. 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals said in ruling against the town.

The justices agreed in May to hear the town's appeal this fall.

The case has drawn attention because it could provide the court's conservative majority an opportunity to alter a legal rule that dates to the 1980s and a set of opinions by then-Justice Sandra Day O'Connor. Her decisions said government actions would violate the 1st Amendment if they appeared to "endorse" religion. That rule has been followed in cases saying that government agencies cannot display the Ten Commandments in their buildings or host Nativity scenes at Christmas.

But O'Connor's "endorsement" standard, which remains the law, can be difficult to interpret. Part of the difficulty is that what one person perceives as endorsement of religion might seem completely benign to someone else. The standard has often led to disputed rulings and widely differing decisions among lower courts.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-court-prayer-20130809,0,6470966.story
 

mirandashell

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I don't know why you don't make all Federal and State stuff secular. And then let people pray to whoever they like in private.

Makes life a lot easier.
 

William Haskins

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the first amendment is complicated in that it guarantees free speech on the one hand and protects against establishment/endorsement of religion on the other.

reconciling these two tenets is often messy.
 

mirandashell

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Hmm... I honestly don't see it. Isn't enforcing a prayer at the start of a meeting endorsing a religion? Just make all that shit secular. Problem solved.
 

Gregg

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I wasn't aware of O'Connor's ruling. But it seems to me that there is a difference between endorsing (to support or approve) and establishing (bring into existence) a religion.

That being said, I don't see the need to open a governmental meeting with a prayer.
 

nighttimer

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Obama back in his Pander Bear mode? Will he ever learn? :rolleyes:

(Shakes head. Walks out of room.)
 

mirandashell

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ETA: Yes we do have a state religion.

But we passed a law allowing gay marriage with very little fuss.

We don't burn down abortion clinics.

We don't sue our schools for the right to say a prayer in our 'leaving school speech'.

We don't really make a fuss about this stuff.

Because the majority of us just get along with our God. Whoever he or she is.

What were you saying about state religion?
 

William Haskins

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we'll see how much attention they pay when jesus is summoned by an american city council ala beetlejuice and turns his sights on a bunch of heathen brits.

boy is he going to be pissed. (american pissed, not drunk).

btw, i thought you had me on ignore.
 

Shakesbear

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says the person from the country with a state religion...

In a perverse way having a state religion seems to mean that we tolerate all religions. Praying does not always mean a religious prayer - that is the prayer could be very general and cover all religions, gods, goddesses, goblins, elves, hobbits and so on and so forth. It becomes dangerous when one religion is favoured over all others and excludes those from minority faiths.
 

William Haskins

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jesus christ on a kipper...

it was a joke.

i admire the collective british shrug at god, okay?
 

robjvargas

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We don't burn down abortion clinics.

I think it's more of a 'splosion. :sarcasm

Seriously, it's kind of difficult to separate politics and religion here. It's *part* of how we came to be. It's created a rather intense population that looks more strongly at the free exercise clause of the First Amendment than about the establishment clause.

And anyone who says Britain has no problems with religion hasn't watched football/soccer matches. :tongue
 

Zoombie

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As my dad says: "Australia was lucky. They got all the convicts, crooks and thieves. We had to end up with the religious nutcases."

I mean, speaking as a modern American, I think "religious nutcase" is a tad harsh to describe early American colonists...but they were definitely weird people. I know, I read their journals for college.
 

dfwtinman

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Hmm... I honestly don't see it. Isn't enforcing a prayer at the start of a meeting endorsing a religion? Just make all that shit secular. Problem solved.

The tension in the First Amendment with respect to religion lies between two clauses known as the "Establishment Clause" and the "Free Exercise" clause.

The First Amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

[note the "Free Speech" clause follows outside the bold]

So, as you can see, when one person argues you can't have a town hall prayer due to the Establishment Clause, another stands up and says "well, then you are prohibiting me from freely exercising my religion under the "Free Exercise Clause."


For the most part, the Supreme Court has said that "excessive entanglement" equals a violation of the Establishment Clause."

Conversely, courts have required that governments make "reasonable accommodations" or not "unduly burden" religious practice in order to remain faithful to the Free Exercise clause.

What exactly constitutes an "excessive entanglement" or a "reasonable accommodation" has shifted as public values have shifted. For example, when I was growing up and attending public school in the 60's and mid-70's, it was typical for schools to have Christmas pageants (including having the school choir sing Christmas Carols) and "Easter Egg Hunts." When my kids went through school this would have been an extreme no-no.

As for prayer, courts have found that schools can have rooms set aside before and after school, for example, to allow kids to gather and pray- as a way of making an accommodation. Allowing Muslim women to wear head dress during sporting events is another example.


Personally, however, I don't see how you can more or less open an government meeting with a sectarian prayer without appearing to favor one religion (or any religion). What's more, I can't see why anyone needs to.
 
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Haggis

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Then there's the issue of those with no religion. Aren't you offending them with a non-sectarian prayer?

And, dammit, I haven't had kippers in years. Now that's all I can think about.
 

benbradley

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the first amendment is complicated in that it guarantees free speech on the one hand and protects against establishment/endorsement of religion on the other.

reconciling these two tenets is often messy.
No, it's clear as a bell, but we got people who want to add Creationism Intelligent Design to government school science classes, hang the Ten Commandments in courthouses, and who knows what else.

Perhaps the big difference between the the USA and Teh Motherland is evangelism (with both big E and little e). I recall in Baptist Sunday School the teacher giving a one-hour (minus two hymms) sermon on the Bible verse Go Tell Others (that IS in the Bible, isn't it? I didn't bother to look it up).
In a perverse way having a state religion seems to mean that we tolerate all religions. Praying does not always mean a religious prayer - ...
I want to see an example of a prayer that's not religious.
 
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benbradley

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I'm personal friends with Ed Buckner (okay, we say hello when we see each other about once an month), and regret not driving the 50 miles to attend his "benediction" er, invocation at the Cobb County (suburb of Atlanta, GA) Board of Commissioners (famous for among other things, this) meeting a few years ago. Fortunately, it was recorded:
http://communications.cobbcountyga.gov/tv23/boc2009/07-28/290.asx

Here's a pertinent post-invocation comment from the speaker:
It may be noteworthy than, in introducing me, Chairman Olens informed the audience that they had to let me do this "under federal law"--not a disclaimer, I think, that the county offers with any others offering invocations.