Using "crap" and "damn" in an MG novel?

kkosach

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My current MS has a lot of Damn & Hell in the first chapter... but that's only because its coming from the very-real General Patton, who was known to have a total potty mouth. I don't want to talk down to middle graders. They are smart. Will some parents be mad? Yes, but if they are going to allow me to teach their children about history during wartime, I need something (because I am cleaning it up already).
 
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frimble3

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Where I come from 'crap' meant junk or stuff. My ninety-year old mother will still say things like, 'where did all this crap come from?'

Must be a New England thing.
Nope. Clear across the continent, in a foreign land, we use 'crap' in much the same way. Sort of a derogatory reference to 'stuff'. "I'm throwing this crap out of the living room!" "That's not crap, that's my stuff!"
 

benjj

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I avoid using "crap" after a school librarian warned me against it. I figured ... she's the Gatekeeper in my world.
 

SarahRoss

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How about "darn"? I've tried to avoid it, but is that necessary?
 

Debbie V

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How about "darn"? I've tried to avoid it, but is that necessary?

Is it necessary to your story? It's a substitute word for damn, so it's better. But it still needs to fit the character and the story. I have damn (twice) and Hell (once) in my manuscript. I'll fight for both of them. A substitute word wouldn't be realistic in the situations where they show up. So avoid it if you can, but don't sacrifice your character or story to the avoiding.
 

Toastymallow

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I'm sometimes surprised when I realize how adroitly an author has gotten around using any kind of "questionable' language. It might be something like "Sam yelled something that made Jillian gape, then sucked at the cut on his thumb." If you're creative, you may find that it's even more fun this way. :)
 

Cyia

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Hi :)

I'm working on an MG novel and my MC uses words like, "crap", "damn", "hell." Are these words okay for an MG book? He's 14, but the target audience is younger (maybe 12 and under).

Thanks!

14's firmly YA, not MG. MG is going to be 8-12, with YA filling out the 14+ category. 13's nebulous, with many agents / editors preferring you age the character up or down to get them firmly in one category or the other. There have been (famous) examples of cursing in YA novels, but I'm not sure any of them started in the US market, where editors and parents are a bit more pearl-clutchy with the word-choices, and it would have to be a rare use, not a common one where the character uses the words often.

Given your character's age, however, I'd say the point is moot. You're in YA territory. No one's going to blink.
 

Mark Moore

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My situation is a bit different. I'm self-publishing. I'm writing what I consider to be a MG magical-girl series. There are plenty of lower-level curse words thrown around: hell, damn (as in "damn it" and "damn right"), pissed off, sucks. The characters are currently 12 and about to enter middle school, but I might change it to 13 and about to enter high school, because it makes it more considerate on the parents' parts to not yank them out of school for a cross-country move. (Side note: the e-book editions of "Avalon: Web of Magic" (a MG series) changed the characters from 12 to 13.)

Since I'm more of a TV/film person, I go by that when determining content. Example: they used "hell" on "Saved by the Bell" and "Full House", which are in perpetual reruns. The new English dub of "Sailor Moon" (the original series) has plenty of hell, damn you, damn right, damn it, and so on.

What should I do? Put a language notice on the blurb?
 

Roxxsmom

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Generally, I'd say no, but is edgy midgrade ever a thing? And it's certainly true that words like "crap" and "damn" are fine for PG-13 movies, and depending on context, maybe in PG as well, at least in limited quantities. It might differ, based on whether it's aimed at older MG readers (10-12) than younger ones (8-10), but remember that kids read up, so the most mature 10-12 year olds might already be reading YA, and the kids reading a book with a 12-year-old protag might be younger.

Fiction is different from movies, video games, or TV, though. There's no actual mandated rating system or parental advisories, but individual publishers and editors have their own guidelines or rules of thumb. And parents and teachers are more actively involved in selecting MG reading material (I'm guessing many MG books are purchased as gifts, or introduced to kids via school reading programs and libraries) than they are for YA.
 
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Mark Moore

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I don't know about edgy midgrade, but I'm not trying to be edge, just write how teens actually talk. Well, okay, I can't write how they ACTUALLY talk in a midgrade book, but I would think stuff like what the Sailor Guardians say would be okay, but, then again, that comes from a different culture, so maybe not?

And I'm calling it MG only based on the expected length, which is about that of books that I've read (the Americanized Sailor Moon novels from 2000, the W.I.T.C.H. novelizations of the comic books, the Riverdale High and Betty and Veronica novels from Archie, etc.): roughly 30,000 words / 120 pages. YA tends to be longer, right?
 

GeneBWell

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First of all I'd love to pre-order your book since an original English magical girl series sounds awesome. Though I don't think MG books have to be short. The last 2 MG books I read have been 400+ pages. MG is mostly about tone and the age of the main characters.

I like the concept of creative swears. Even adult books like The WHEEL OF TIME series does this with 'blood and ashes!' In my cooking fantasy MG novel they use 'jam!' or 'jam it all to jelly!' if they're really upset. I think using creativity here could put some good voice into the novel while still having the same dramatic weight of a normal swear. Just my .02
 

Mark Moore

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First of all I'd love to pre-order your book since an original English magical girl series sounds awesome.

Awww, thanks. :) They do exist, though:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avalon:_Web_of_Magic

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daughters_of_the_Moon

Though I don't think MG books have to be short. The last 2 MG books I read have been 400+ pages.

Wow. That sounds like about the expected length of the one full-length novel that I'm currently writing (I'm about 40,000 words into an expected 100,000-word length), but that's meant to follow three characters through an entire year of their lives as they deal with work, family life, and spirituality, so I have plenty of material to work with.

With this magical-girl series, I view it as more episodic in nature (there's no one particular antagonist / "main bad guy" for them to deal with; it takes more of a "confront evil wherever we find it" approach, which sidesteps the issue of why the bad guys keep attacking someone within walking distance of the heroes), each possibly dealing with a problem or two and taking place within a relatively short amount of time. Also, all of my stories are protagonist-centric, so I don't cut away to scenes with the villains (I generally find villain scenes boring to write). The reader confronts them alongside the heroes. All of this kind of limits the length of an individual story. Fortunately, I have five protagonists, each of which has one parent, and they're all getting used to new living situations, so that should give me enough material to work with, even if I'm avoiding some of the tropes, such as crushes on guys (the girls are all involved with each other) and fitting in in school (all except one of them don't care about popularity).

I like the concept of creative swears. Even adult books like The WHEEL OF TIME series does this with 'blood and ashes!' In my cooking fantasy MG novel they use 'jam!' or 'jam it all to jelly!' if they're really upset. I think using creativity here could put some good voice into the novel while still having the same dramatic weight of a normal swear. Just my .02

I do have some of that in addition to the normal curses (the latter of which is usually followed by an admonishment by one of the parents, which is usually followed by a "Whaaat?" or "Sooorry" by the girl). The girls are into fairies, so they sometimes make fairy-related puns, but this has also extended into fairy-related "cursing".
 
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