Things you took for granted

Rachel Udin · Jul 29, 2013

Things that you took for granted when you were writing historical fiction and only found out later didn't exist yet.

For me, so far, it's kissing, the saddle (I thought the leather saddle was older), the stirrup, tailored clothing in India.

I never thought kissing had to be invented... I was lucky that it started in India, because I have no idea how to fill the gap between hugging, necking, rubbing noses/cheeks and sex.

I understand now why not many romances are set in Greece before Alexander the Great came. The kiss is a cornerstone of romance...

donroc · Jul 29, 2013

Usually it is flora, fauna, food, customs, and techology.

gothicangel · Jul 29, 2013

I don't think I've ever experienced that. I think its the other way with Roman history for me, things like barber shops and bakeries, tenement buildings, taverns serving hot food, or things like tweezers and bronze mirrors.

I was recently amazed to discover that the levels of Roman industry were never achieved again until the 18th century.

Tocotin · Jul 29, 2013

I remember a few surprises (I'm writing about Japan):

most people didn't own futons/bedding until 20th century,
no tables until the end of 19th century,
no wall closets,
totally different times of kabuki performances in teh Edo period (starting at dawn)

benbenberi · Jul 29, 2013

The furniture in French peasant houses before the mid-19c consisted almost entirely of a few stools, benches, and possibly storage chests. Tables & chairs were extremely rare -- only the wealthiest villagers had them. Built beds, the same.

Screws didn't really exist before industrial manufacturing -- too hard to make, and no standardization possible. Nails were also difficult & expensive to make (each one built by hand!), which is why wooden pegs were ubiquitous and nails unusual in construction, furniture, etc. till the 19c.

Siri Kirpal · Jul 29, 2013

Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

So far, I haven't had the problem myself.

But I have seen a book with tomatoes in Italy during Dante's lifetime. (They're a Western Hemisphere plant.) And yes, the furniture thing: I did see one book where someone in Medieval Britain was moving and had a cart full of furniture, including tables and chairs.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal

Sonsofthepharaohs · Jul 29, 2013

Rachel Udin said:
I never thought kissing had to be invented... I was lucky that it started in India, because I have no idea how to fill the gap between hugging, necking, rubbing noses/cheeks and sex.

I understand now why not many romances are set in Greece before Alexander the Great came. The kiss is a cornerstone of romance...

Wha...?

Yeah, never thought about that before, just assumed it was a universal and instinctual expression of love/lust. So.... where does that leave the romance scenes in my ancient Egyptian novel???

:Huh:

Ahhh, screw it. It's called poetic licence for a reason

snafu1056 · Jul 29, 2013

For a story set in 1893 I initially took it for granted that zippers were already in common use. Nope. No zippers.

CWatts · Jul 29, 2013

Kallithrix said:
Wha...?

Yeah, never thought about that before, just assumed it was a universal and instinctual expression of love/lust. So.... where does that leave the romance scenes in my ancient Egyptian novel???

Ahhh, screw it. It's called poetic licence for a reason

You're fine - people did kiss in Egypt, to show familial affection at least: http://www.brooklynmuseum.org/openc..._Queen_Nefertiti_Kissing_One_of_Her_Daughters

I seriously doubt that kissing had to be "invented" but like all human behaviors, things go in and out of fashion and may not be commonplace (and may even be taboo) in a given place and time.

benbenberi said:
The furniture in French peasant houses before the mid-19c consisted almost entirely of a few stools, benches, and possibly storage chests. Tables & chairs were extremely rare -- only the wealthiest villagers had them. Built beds, the same.

Screws didn't really exist before industrial manufacturing -- too hard to make, and no standardization possible. Nails were also difficult & expensive to make (each one built by hand!), which is why wooden pegs were ubiquitous and nails unusual in construction, furniture, etc. till the 19c.

Thomas Jefferson had a nailery at Monticello which was apparently very profitable for him. Unfortunately it was based not only on slave labor, but child slave labor -- it was the work assigned to young boys from age about 6 to mid-teens.

Rachel Udin · Jul 29, 2013

Tocotin said:
I remember a few surprises (I'm writing about Japan):

most people didn't own futons/bedding until 20th century,

no tables until the end of 19th century,

no wall closets,

totally different times of kabuki performances in teh Edo period (starting at dawn)

Also soy sauce, despite being on the mainland china and Korea for years wasn't invented in Japan until the Sengoku period, which just made me blink really hard and go WHA~ Apparently how we think of Japanese food wasn't around until the late Sengoku period...

Kallithrix said:
Wha...?

Yeah, never thought about that before, just assumed it was a universal and instinctual expression of love/lust. So.... where does that leave the romance scenes in my ancient Egyptian novel???

Ahhh, screw it. It's called poetic licence for a reason

Kissing as in between mother and child was commonplace before then. However, records show that the first mention of romantic kissing ever was in India, mentioned in the Mahabharata which was only written much later.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/14/world/asia/in-india-kisses-are-on-rise-even-in-public.html?_r=1&

In some African tribes, it's thought that if you kiss your soul will be sucked out or it's dirty...

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7348582

I found this out through watching a crapload of BBC documentaries and was shocked to find out that kissing had to be invented... (I went into panic mode too.)

http://news.discovery.com/history/history-of-kissing-130214.htm

Yeah... Alexander the Great... >.<;; Several sources supported this, including the BBC, several scholars, etc. Which made it harder to refute.

I had to think hard on a way around this since this was pre much of any kind of real sturdy way to write down language in a manner that was transportable.

SpinningWheel · Jul 30, 2013

Collared doves in England - I didn't realise they only arrived in the last few centuries.
I'd been scrupulous about trees, flowers, horses and dogs but just assumed birds were all the same.

angeliz2k · Jul 30, 2013

Idioms. I tend to use a lot of idioms, and I have to check to be sure they were use during the time period in question. Since the English of the 19th century is very similar to our own, it's easy to forget it wasn't exactly the same.

And flora. Certain plants weren't known to Europeans before they came to the new world (e.g. potatoes), and some weren't eaten until relatively recently (e.g. tomatoes).

I've written mostly in the 18th and 19th centuries, which are pretty familiar to me, so I haven't (I hope) taken too many things for granted.

Sonsofthepharaohs · Jul 30, 2013

Well, I use modern swear words and other translated expressions/traits, so I ain't gonna bother myself too much about a little kissing. I'm not writing a historical study, but a novel. Certain things you just need to translate into language a modern reader can understand - including body language. A wink, a wry smile, a coy glance - where would we be if we denied ourselves these common physical expressions of emotion in our writing?

I'm gonna put even mire kissing in it now

gothicangel · Jul 30, 2013

Kallithrix said:
Well, I use modern swear words and other translated expressions/traits, so I ain't gonna bother myself too much about a little kissing. I'm not writing a historical study, but a novel. Certain things you just need to translate into language a modern reader can understand - including body language. A wink, a wry smile, a coy glance - where would we be if we denied ourselves these common physical expressions of emotion in our writing?

I'm gonna put even mire kissing in it now

As a historian, it's an interesting quandary. If something isn't mentioned in the historical record, does that mean that past peoples didn't do it?

Personally, I choose to remain sceptical.

Sonsofthepharaohs · Jul 30, 2013

gothicangel said:
As a historian, it's an interesting quandary. If something isn't mentioned in the historical record, does that mean that past peoples didn't do it?

Personally, I choose to remain sceptical.

Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence

mayqueen · Jul 30, 2013

gothicangel said:
As a historian, it's an interesting quandary. If something isn't mentioned in the historical record, does that mean that past peoples didn't do it?

That question then gets even more complicated when you don't have a reliable historical record. I tend to write in poorly documented early medieval periods. I'm writing right now in seventh century pagan England. All the primary sources are probably Christian propaganda.

I had the same issue with the stirrup and, especially, what the horses would have looked like.

DianeL · Jul 30, 2013

Mayqueen, same here - I found it dangerous, too, when I FOUND any related research, the way I wanted to use too much of it or spend too much time on it. The amount of time I spent on Tarpan mounts was awful! And I cut every last word of it in edits.

I have more concern about the preconceptions my readers will bring to a novel about a "barbarian" king and such, than I've had issues with my own expectations. There's always that "guitarist at the back of the bar" sneering about the choices an author makes, you know?

Bookewyrme · Jul 31, 2013

For me it's usually food-items or word-choice/expressions that are thoroughly anachronistic and I have to go back and change.

But, um, kissing? It honestly never would have even occurred to me that people might not have kissed to show affection in my time-period.
Huh.

Tocotin · Aug 1, 2013

Rachel Udin said:
Also soy sauce, despite being on the mainland china and Korea for years wasn't invented in Japan until the Sengoku period, which just made me blink really hard and go WHA~ Apparently how we think of Japanese food wasn't around until the late Sengoku period...

Yes. (The Japanese Wikipedia claims that soy sauce was around in Yayoi period already, though, but it's Wikipedia...) Lots of foods now considered traditionally Japanese, like sushi, appeared only in Edo period.

Speaking about kissing... in Western fiction about Japan there seems to be a general consensus on the kiss being a Western invention. It's not true, kissing was just a very intimate act, and as such depicted in erotic woodblock prints quite a lot.

BardSkye · Aug 1, 2013

Being acquainted with a few Middle European men who love their coffee houses, I put a coffee house in a caravanserai on the Silk Road. Only later, when I checked, did I find out I was several centuries ahead of the facts. Oops.

SpinningWheel · Aug 1, 2013

I've just had a horrible thought (while watching a nature documentary that mentioned how common corncrakes used to be).
I've been scrupulous about not having birds that weren't around in 16th century England but I haven't checked which ones were more common than they are now.
That's going to be harder, too. Damn!

snafu1056 · Aug 1, 2013

Tocotin said:
Yes. (The Japanese Wikipedia claims that soy sauce was around in Yayoi period already, though, but it's Wikipedia...) Lots of foods now considered traditionally Japanese, like sushi, appeared only in Edo period.

I think I might trust Wikipedia in this case. It seems kinda unlikely that such a staple of Chinese culture wouldn't reach Japan until the 1500's. It's not like the two countries were isolated from each other. Chinese culture--especially Tang dynasty Chinese culture--made a pretty big impression on Japanese culture early on. I can't imagine that soy sauce wasn't part of that cultural exchange. The Soy Sauce wiki says it came to Japan from China in the 7th century. Since this falls within the Tang dynasty I'd say it's pretty probable.

Tocotin · Aug 2, 2013

snafu1056 said:
I think I might trust Wikipedia in this case. It seems kinda unlikely that such a staple of Chinese culture wouldn't reach Japan until the 1500's. It's not like the two countries were isolated from each other. Chinese culture--especially Tang dynasty Chinese culture--made a pretty big impression on Japanese culture early on. I can't imagine that soy sauce wasn't part of that cultural exchange. The Soy Sauce wiki says it came to Japan from China in the 7th century. Since this falls within the Tang dynasty I'd say it's pretty probable.

I just did a mini-research hehe. According to my sources (a little handbook of Japanese food history and the Soy Sauce Info Center), the first time when the sauce is mentioned seems to be the year 702 (the Asuka period), when the Taihō Code was compiled. In the Code, there is a special office for making different types of sauce, which was the base for what we know now as soy sauce, for the use of the court. And in the Heian period, there were already 50 stores selling the sauce in the capital alone.

DianeL · Aug 2, 2013

LOVING the soy sauce research going on right here before our eyes. This is such great stuff.

Also, SpinningWheel, GOOD luck with the birds. It's a good thought, and I've had some of those "Dammit" moments too ...

snafu1056 · Aug 2, 2013

Tocotin said:
I just did a mini-research hehe. According to my sources (a little handbook of Japanese food history and the Soy Sauce Info Center), the first time when the sauce is mentioned seems to be the year 702 (the Asuka period), when the Taihō Code was compiled. In the Code, there is a special office for making different types of sauce, which was the base for what we know now as soy sauce, for the use of the court. And in the Heian period, there were already 50 stores selling the sauce in the capital alone.

Yeah that sounds more likely. The Tang dynasty had a huge influence on Japan. You can still see it today. For example, this is what a Tang Chinese woman looked like. To a lot of people this would be a classic Japanese look, but it comes from China.

Things you took for granted

Historicals and Horror rule

Toughen up.

deceives

practical experience, FTW

Swan in Process

Still writing the ancient Egyptian tetralogy

down the rabbit hole of research...

never mind the shorty

Still writing the ancient Egyptian tetralogy

Toughen up.

Still writing the ancient Egyptian tetralogy

practical experience, FTW

Imagined half of it.

deceives

Barbershoppin' Harmony Whore

deceives