Orange is the New Black - Season 5 Spoilers

Viridian said:

Also, I need to get something off my chest about Judy King.

Spoilers: Judy King raped Luschek, right? He did not want to have sex with her. He turned her down, and then she blackmailed him into it. The contrast between how Pennsatucky's rape was handled versus how Luschek's rape was handled is unsettling. Pennsatucky has a character arc devoted to it... Luschek continues casually hanging out with his rapist, doing drugs with her, and even has a threesome with her.

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I agree. It bugged me that the show seemed to play it for laughs a bit and didn't really seem to take it seriously.

Katiemac, I just read that article a few days ago. Pretty solid read.

Caputo was just . . . I don't know. I feel like he is trying to do the right thing, but in the end, he chose to save "the boy" who he wanted out of the prison business instead of focusing on the tragedy.

I wasn't sure how I was supposed to feel about that scene with Bayley doing what he did. It was like the show wanted to address the senselessness occurring with the arrests and deaths of African Americans, but also wanted to show how a corrections (or police) officer can make mistakes when things get chaotic. The show didn't want to piss off anyone from any camp? Or, were they just trying to show how things might have gone down?

The season was solid. I feel like the show has a tendency to make us feel sympathy for a character by giving us a glimpse into their backstories--or putting them through something awful in prison--then, they cheapen it. Like when the corrections officer made Maritza "make her choice for real," then turned her right back into a shallow character, giggling about being in front of the cameras because of "the dead girl."

I did enjoy Red this season and Lolly. The "gang" situations felt weird.

In the last few seasons, I had no connection to Piper at all. Same holds true this season. Just, meh... Not interested.

I still liked watching it. Not enough Laverne, though.

CrastersBabies said:

Caputo was just . . . I don't know. I feel like he is trying to do the right thing, but in the end, he chose to save "the boy" who he wanted out of the prison business instead of focusing on the tragedy.

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Caputo really annoys me. He has these moments where you can see that he's really trying to do the right thing, but he's ultimately pretty cowardly and short-sighed.

I wasn't sure how I was supposed to feel about that scene with Bayley doing what he did. It was like the show wanted to address the senselessness occurring with the arrests and deaths of African Americans, but also wanted to show how a corrections (or police) officer can make mistakes when things get chaotic. The show didn't want to piss off anyone from any camp? Or, were they just trying to show how things might have gone down?

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I actually thought it worked well that Bayley was the one who did it. I don't think they were trying to play it safe or pull any punches there (they were fine with showing how horrible some of the guards were in other episodes). I think the point wasn't that Bayley made a mistake so much as he was set up to fail by a system that provided inadequate training and encouraged abuse. The guards who came in right after MCC took over (like Bayley and Coates) were woefully unprepared and undertrained. And the new batch of guards, who were enabled by Piscatella, were mostly abusive and cruel. Piscatella created a volatile situation that Bayley was not in any way prepared to deal with, and it had tragic results. For that matter, it never would have happened if Caputo had stuck to his guns earlier when he first learned about the abuse and Piscatella's disregard for his orders. It was an accident, and Bayley isn't an evil guy, but the situation was a direct result of poor management and oversight.

DancingMaenid said:

Caputo really annoys me. He has these moments where you can see that he's really trying to do the right thing, but he's ultimately pretty cowardly and short-sighed.

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I really wanted to root for him ALL season, but felt like he kept doing dumb things (like hooking up with that lame MCC lady).

I actually thought it worked well that Bayley was the one who did it. I don't think they were trying to play it safe or pull any punches there (they were fine with showing how horrible some of the guards were in other episodes). I think the point wasn't that Bayley made a mistake so much as he was set up to fail by a system that provided inadequate training and encouraged abuse. The guards who came in right after MCC took over (like Bayley and Coates) were woefully unprepared and undertrained. And the new batch of guards, who were enabled by Piscatella, were mostly abusive and cruel. Piscatella created a volatile situation that Bayley was not in any way prepared to deal with, and it had tragic results. For that matter, it never would have happened if Caputo had stuck to his guns earlier when he first learned about the abuse and Piscatella's disregard for his orders. It was an accident, and Bayley isn't an evil guy, but the situation was a direct result of poor management and oversight.

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Thanks for your perspective. I'm mulling it over. I think it's good that I'm conflicted in a sense because I'm not all gung ho to just jump on one "side" or the other. That's really what this show does well. It lets us hate characters then redeems them to some extent, then shows us their flaws and dares us to make up our minds . . . either way.

I don't think they were trying to play it safe or pull any punches there (they were fine with showing how horrible some of the guards were in other episodes). I think the point wasn't that Bayley made a mistake so much as he was set up to fail by a system that provided inadequate training and encouraged abuse. The guards who came in right after MCC took over (like Bayley and Coates) were woefully unprepared and undertrained. And the new batch of guards, who were enabled by Piscatella, were mostly abusive and cruel.

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Agreed. It has would have been far easier for an inmate death to be at the hands of one of the abusive guards. Instead, the show is highlighting the overall breakdown in the system. Mismanaged prisons are a danger for the inmates and the guards.

Here's what Samira Wiley said on the topic:

How did you feel about the fact that the guard who kills her is humanized in the episode? He's not one of the jerks. That that's real life, too. Honestly, it was a really smart decision on their part because it is complicated. All life is complicated. You could've had one of those asshole guards be the one to do it, but then that would've made your feelings so cut and dry. It wouldn't have been complicated like life is. It's something I didn't know was coming. Even when I was reading the script up until that moment, I knew what was going to happen but I was surprised that it was him. In the last episode, you see that they are two kids, and we pass each other on the street. That's really cool of them to do that, too, just to see that these are just two kids walking down the street. In however many years, one is going to kill the other. It's not this vicious crime. It's the system. That's what Jenji's trying to do. She's trying to highlight this horrible corrupt system that's corrupt on both sides.

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All I know is that I want to see more of Humps (the guard that made Maritza eat the baby mouse) next season. I'm always fascinated by psychopathic characters like that - Mr. Blonde in Reservoir Dogs, Ralph Ciffaretto in The Sopranos, Dexter (obviously), etc. I'd love for them to do some flashbacks with him that show how he ended up the way he did.

katiemac said:

I thought the entire last episode Caputo was going to grow a pair and do something, just not that.

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CrastersBabies said:

Caputo was just . . . I don't know. I feel like he is trying to do the right thing, but in the end, he chose to save "the boy" who he wanted out of the prison business instead of focusing on the tragedy.

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DancingMaenid said:

Caputo really annoys me. He has these moments where you can see that he's really trying to do the right thing, but he's ultimately pretty cowardly and short-sighed.

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I interpreted Caputo's speech waaaaay differently.

The corporation needs someone to pin the blame on someone. They couldn't pin the blame on Poussey, so they tried to use Bayley as a scapegoat.

Caputo just destroyed that defense. He announced on television that the officer was not at fault because the officer was "set up to fail." Maybe I'm crazy, but I feel that MCC itself -- not Bayley -- is responsible for Poussey's death. They shoved hundreds of people into one tiny prison, then denied those people basic necessities like food, tampons, and sleep. In those conditions, a riot is inevitable. And when there's a riot, people get hurt.

Caputo put MCC in a bad position, and I'm pretty sure he did it on purpose. I'm cool with that.

Er... katiemac? I think you might have goofed. It looks like you edited my post, deleted every single thing that I wrote, and then used my post to write your own.

That really sucks.

Anyway. Moving on. I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I definitely remember Caputo talking about how Poussey's death was a tragedy. He did talk about Bayley more, but after an entire episode devoted to Poussey, I was willing to let Bayley have thirty seconds of "he didn't mean to hurt her and really it's the prison's fault" time.

Er... katiemac? I think you might have goofed.

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And you're back. Sorry about that. Sometimes I don't know my own power.

Viridian said:

I interpreted Caputo's speech waaaaay differently.

The corporation needs someone to pin the blame on someone. They couldn't pin the blame on Poussey, so they tried to use Bayley as a scapegoat.

Caputo just destroyed that defense. He announced on television that the officer was not at fault because the officer was "set up to fail." Maybe I'm crazy, but I feel that MCC itself -- not Bayley -- is responsible for Poussey's death. They shoved hundreds of people into one tiny prison, then denied those people basic necessities like food, tampons, and sleep. In those conditions, a riot is inevitable. And when there's a riot, people get hurt.

Caputo put MCC in a bad position, and I'm pretty sure he did it on purpose. I'm cool with that.

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Just to be clear, since you quoted me, I don't disagree with any of this. Caputo was definitely taking a stand against MCC, and I don't think he was trying to throw Poussey under the bus.

It just borders on too little, too late. Maybe this is a turning point for him, but it's hard to tell since it all took place in the last few minutes of the finale. I hope that where they're going with him is that he's finally had enough.

But up until that point, he tried but just couldn't bring himself to do what needed to be done. There were so many moments where he could have acted but backed down, or allowed himself to be swayed. It's good if that's changing now, but that doesn't change the fact that he was the warden and if he'd stood up to Piscatella more, things might not have gotten as bad.

Just finished watching season 4. And avoiding the Internet as much as possible. Perils of not binge watching.

Powerful. Raw. Painful. Samira Wiley rocks. The rest of the cast rocks. The writers are outstanding. Everything about the last three episodes of this season were brutal and brilliant and wow, I need to hug a teddy bear.

I'm only at episode 7, smirking at Chapman's kitchen escapade. She had it coming. A horrible person all around; her girlfriend screwed her over, so now she's "victim gone perp" and lashes out, and puts a couple more years on an innocent woman's sentence to save her silly panty business? Hell no. Bye, Felicia. I just wish they'd have picked a different design. Nobody deserves to get beat up for something they're not. Never liked her much. A coward, a manipulative pity seeker, liar, shallow, fake, insecure... just the whole package of Ew.

Since the new season will be starting soon, I thought I'd post this Sesame Street clip to get you excited. I'm sure the references go over the kids' heads, but I thought it was funny and cute:

Orange Is The New Snack

Just caught up with the new season, curious to hear your thoughts when you reach the end. Overall I'm happier with the tone that with season 4, which got far too grimdark for my liking, but.... there were a lot of attempted red herrings, I think?, that ended up feeling like forgotten character traits: diabetes guard, most notably. Again, in this season, male rape and abuse was played for laughs and nothing else. The Donuts & Tucky plotline still infuriates me. The timeline was kinda inconsistent, and there was a massive and awkward over-reliance of poop humour over every other kind of comedy. I could do with never hearing fake shitting sound effects again in my life, please.

But... I really loved Frieda's whole arc, and Flaritza's vlogger adventures. Loved the constant presence of Poussey's memory and impact on the cast. Enjoyed a season where Nicki didn't relapse and Alex and Piper managed to stay relatively drama-free for four whole days. Lots of wonderful and poignant social commentary, lots of powerful statements, and I really enjoyed that the whole season was structured in such a short time window. LOVED that so much of the season was about people looking out for and taking care of Suzanne.

Also, some absolutely glorious cinematography moments. The horror movie Episode 9 and the pop-music-video shots in episode 12/13(?) were absolute highlights.

Just caught up with the new season, curious to hear your thoughts when you reach the end.

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SPOILERS

I've finished the season. I admit that I didn't know what to do with a lot of it. I had little sympathy for the characters and a lot of them acted like idiots. I agree wholeheartedy that they did not correctly handle the abuse and rape of the male guards. Pennsatucky and the other guard is infuriating. But then you have characters like Daya slow to realize that shooting a guard means going to max? Or Red thinking that a plan to torture a guard into a signed murder confession wouldn't be completely inadmissable? I have no idea why part of our main cast ended up holing up in the pool bunker fully expecting to be killed rather than self-surrender like Nicky told Lorna to do. And while we're on that, maybe don't get caught wearing a guard's uniform and handcuffs?

I wasn't much of a fan of the condensed timeline. Having what was essentially a bottle season may have impacted the ability to balance the humor and drama that show is usually very good at.

Oh yeah, completely agree. A lot of the character beats felt off in this one. I didn't mind Daya and Red so much since it fits their core characters, in my head (naive and easily swept up / ruthless and easily blinded by rage) but I'm still mystified by Tucky getting pushed to her limit and then... punching Linda? That's it? She's such a creature if righteous rage and punishment but her fire was missing in this one.

The bunker thing bothered me too: the bunker-characters kept talking about how awful it was on the surface to justify not going there, but... it wasn't? And it was characters who had been up there and seen it that were saying this. The prison's had far worse than SWAT uniforms and hands-against-the-walls, the raid didn't come across as anywhere near as terrifying as the show seemed to think.

I think this was partly because nobody got hurt, despite all the lampshaded potential deaths. With nobody hurt, it seemed ridiculous for the show to position the bunker (with friggin' Piscatella in it!) as a safe place.

And it was super weird that Frieda, the most sensible of the lot, chose to face the raid holding a gun and wearing a head-visor and armour. Frieda is smarter than that! I could buy Tova wearing the guard uniform because she makes a lot of ridiculous decisions, but Frieda pushed believably for me.

DancingMaenid said:

I agree. It bugged me that the show seemed to play it for laughs a bit and didn't really seem to take it seriously.

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although they way they're handling Pennsatucky's is making me really uncomfortable too

I was icked out by Pennsatucky's "love interest," but then I thought well, it is an example of major dysfunction...

I just love this show. I binge watched the whole season in two nights and now it's over.