upset (a rant)

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android415

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tl;dr

I want to be published already. Living off my writing is the dream. I'm angry because in my mind, I've slaved away for years, and still have nothing to show for it. etc. etc...


I feel a little better now. I think I'm going to take a break for a few days, and think about the comments and advice I've been given below.
 
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shadowwalker

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Have you ever gotten constructive critiques of your writing? Writing isn't as simple as "Just tell me what to write, and I will write it". It's continual learning, practicing, adjusting, polishing, not to mention learning how to choose which agents, magazines, and/or publishers to contact and how to contact them.
 

android415

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Have you ever gotten constructive critiques of your writing? Writing isn't as simple as "Just tell me what to write, and I will write it". It's continual learning, practicing, adjusting, polishing, not to mention learning how to choose which agents, magazines, and/or publishers to contact and how to contact them.

I realize writing isn't that simple, that was more of a desperate plea. I was emphasizing that at this point, I genuinely don't know what to submit anymore, because it seems nobody will like it anyway.

And yes, I have gotten critiques before. I am an English major who has to defend her (creative) thesis to advisers, so I've gotten stuff from them about my writing style and voice that have been very helpful. I'm using some of the critique I get in my latest works!

Maybe I really do suck, and no one has had the nerve to tell me. Like, I'm written some pretty bad stuff before, but perhaps everything I write is bad.
 
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cornflake

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I think you're looking at this in a very black-and-white way. The only kind of careers you can really decide you've ultimately failed at by 21 are those you had to be doing professionally or close before 21, like many athletic careers.

If you're 21 and you've never danced a day in your life, doesn't matter how much you want it or how dedicated you'll be from this point forward, you're not going to be a professional classical ballet dancer. If you've never been on skates, you're not making the NHL. A majority of Olympic medals are not in your future, no matter what.

Writing, however, is not like that. Same as painting, acting, or any other artistic endeavour that people take up at many points and succeed, or toil at for decades before succeeding.

You're also defining success in an exceedingly narrow manner - that, you can also change. It's not about giving up on a dream, it's about growing up and evolving and maturing. You may actually write the Great American Novel. You may not. If you don't, doesn't mean your dream is dead and you collapse.

A lot of kids want to be a prima ballerina or an NHL star. They want it desperately. They study from toddlerhood. As they grow up, most of those kids are immersed in a sea of their own competition. They begin to recognize where they fall in that competition, because they're exposed to it all the time. Their dreams start to evolve.

A girl may still dream of being a soloist, dancing the swan queen, but realize that what she really wants is to be able to be involved with dance for a living. Maybe she's good enough to be in the corps. Maybe she's not - then maybe she can study teaching, or choreography or etc. Maybe she decides that's not what she wants, and she'd rather explore other types of jobs that will allow her to take recreational dance classes after work and attend a lot of ballets. It's about what you really want, as an adult, not a child, because they're different realities.

You can still have the dream, but you can also have other dreams, goals, ideas and aspirations. If you're looking at everything as a step toward the one thing that'll kill you if you don't get it, nothing will ever be satisfying and you maybe will have a hard time progressing because you're looking too far ahead and not focusing on what you're doing now.

If the girl dreaming about being a ballerina only wants to figure out how to be on pointe, she's going to be a mess for a long time, because she can't do that until she's like 12. It's a process and you have to go step by step.

Why do you want to write? To be famous? To be rich? To write? To tell a story? Because you love language? Because...? Figure that out first, then work from there and figure out what to do with that answer.
 

Amadan

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You are 21. You've just gotten started. You don't even know what you don't know yet.

And making it your goal to be the next F. Scott Fitzgerald is an awfully high bar. Though I did laugh a little at your setting J.K. Rowling above him and Hemingway. But still - make it your goal to get published, rather than comparing yourself to your favorite writers.
 

android415

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I think you're looking at this in a very black-and-white way. The only kind of careers you can really decide you've ultimately failed at by 21 are those you had to be doing professionally or close before 21, like many athletic careers.

If you're 21 and you've never danced a day in your life, doesn't matter how much you want it or how dedicated you'll be from this point forward, you're not going to be a professional classical ballet dancer. If you've never been on skates, you're not making the NHL. A majority of Olympic medals are not in your future, no matter what.

Writing, however, is not like that. Same as painting, acting, or any other artistic endeavour that people take up at many points and succeed, or toil at for decades before succeeding.

You're also defining success in an exceedingly narrow manner - that, you can also change. It's not about giving up on a dream, it's about growing up and evolving and maturing. You may actually write the Great American Novel. You may not. If you don't, doesn't mean your dream is dead and you collapse.

A lot of kids want to be a prima ballerina or an NHL star. They want it desperately. They study from toddlerhood. As they grow up, most of those kids are immersed in a sea of their own competition. They begin to recognize where they fall in that competition, because they're exposed to it all the time. Their dreams start to evolve.

A girl may still dream of being a soloist, dancing the swan queen, but realize that what she really wants is to be able to be involved with dance for a living. Maybe she's good enough to be in the corps. Maybe she's not - then maybe she can study teaching, or choreography or etc. Maybe she decides that's not what she wants, and she'd rather explore other types of jobs that will allow her to take recreational dance classes after work and attend a lot of ballets. It's about what you really want, as an adult, not a child, because they're different realities.

You can still have the dream, but you can also have other dreams, goals, ideas and aspirations. If you're looking at everything as a step toward the one thing that'll kill you if you don't get it, nothing will ever be satisfying and you maybe will have a hard time progressing because you're looking too far ahead and not focusing on what you're doing now.

If the girl dreaming about being a ballerina only wants to figure out how to be on pointe, she's going to be a mess for a long time, because she can't do that until she's like 12. It's a process and you have to go step by step.

Why do you want to write? To be famous? To be rich? To write? To tell a story? Because you love language? Because...? Figure that out first, then work from there and figure out what to do with that answer.

I want to write because I am in love with storytelling. I said that in my rant. If I didn't write novels, I would make movies. If I didn't make movies, I would paint. Any form will do, I just chose writing.

Storytelling, and the ability to touch someone, specifically. My first favorite book, Behind the Attic Wall by Sylvia Cassidy opened my eyes to the power it can have. I want to do that.

I want to clarify that I'm not confused about my goals and motivations, but I may well be delusional, I admit. I wish I wasn't. I wish I wasn't hellbent on doing this. I think my aspirations to become like great writers confused you all. Obviously, that is the highest dream, but I'm not suggesting that I expected to be Fitzgerald by now. I just expected to actually have made some progress, even if it's just one step forward.

Realistically, I just want to be published, somewhere. I can't even do that. Hence...this rant.
 
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cornflake

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I want to write because I am in love with storytelling. I said that in my rant. If I didn't write novels, I would make movies. If I didn't make movies, I would paint. Any form will do, I just chose writing.

Storytelling, and the ability to touch someone, specifically. My first favorite book, Behind the Attic Wall by Sylvia Cassidy opened my eyes to the power it can have. I want to do that.

I want to clarify that I'm not confused about my goals and motivations, but I may well be delusional, I admit. I wish I wasn't.

The 'tell me what to write and I'll write it' part didn't go with that motivation, hence the question.

Storytelling though, isn't the same as being a renowned novelist. They're different things. This is all I'm saying is to not think in such black-and-white terms, with the 'if I don't achieve X, I'll die inside,' because if to be a storyteller is what you want, then being famous isn't relevant.

I've never heard of your first favourite book or the woman who wrote it. See?
 

sdbrown

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Most of the time your rejections will be as stale as bread left on a counter overnight. They will simply say "Not for Us" (or some other variation) and leave you hanging. Have you tried Beta-Readers? If so how many? I ask this because often times what a rejection letter wont say a better reader might. For example: if there was a problem with the story, a typical rejection wont tell you that but a beta reader might catch it (sorry if I dont make sense lol). Im not saying plaster your stories or novels everywhere but having a friends and acquaintances willing to help you out with purely honest opinions could completely change everything for you in the long run in a good way.

I do not see any problems with your dreams; not at all but in order to reach those dreams you need to solid foundation. If you are confident in your ability then show it to others who you know will be bluntly honest wi you. If they catch something you can take their information into consideration before submitting to anyone. Just a thought!

Keep on Writing!
SDBrown
 

JoNightshade

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Your dream is a fantasy. Your desire to be another Rowling is akin to dreaming that if you just save up enough money and buy enough tickets, you'll win the lotto and become a billionaire. Or that if you find the right guy to marry, you'll become a princess.

Rowling is successful not because she is a skilled storyteller, but because she is a skilled storyteller and also happened to write the right thing at the right time and run into the right people who did the right things. It's a perfect storm of publishing.

Here's what's in your power: you can become a skilled storyteller. And you can play the game.

Here's what's not in your power: the era you're writing in, the agents who read your query, the publishers who buy your book, and the people who read your writing. You could write something that's absolute genius and spend the rest of your life in obscurity. Being a skilled storyteller increases your odds of success, but it's no guarantee of anything.

Give up the dream. It's pointless and is only going to discourage you in the long run. Do what you CAN do - which is to continually work at becoming the best writer you can be. There is no end-point to that pursuit. It's a lifelong discipline.
 

android415

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Your dream is a fantasy. Your desire to be another Rowling is akin to dreaming that if you just save up enough money and buy enough tickets, you'll win the lotto and become a billionaire. Or that if you find the right guy to marry, you'll become a princess.

Rowling is successful not because she is a skilled storyteller, but because she is a skilled storyteller and also happened to write the right thing at the right time and run into the right people who did the right things. It's a perfect storm of publishing.

Here's what's in your power: you can become a skilled storyteller. And you can play the game.

Here's what's not in your power: the era you're writing in, the agents who read your query, the publishers who buy your book, and the people who read your writing. You could write something that's absolute genius and spend the rest of your life in obscurity. Being a skilled storyteller increases your odds of success, but it's no guarantee of anything.

Give up the dream. It's pointless and is only going to discourage you in the long run. Do what you CAN do - which is to continually work at becoming the best writer you can be. There is no end-point to that pursuit. It's a lifelong discipline.


This is all true, good advice. Thank you.
 

folkchick

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I'm not one to talk, but I'll give you the best advice that I keep having to tell myself every day: Hang In There. Keep working hard. You can't control other people's reactions to what you do, but you can control how hard you work, and how much you work, and how much you allow yourself to enjoy the process of your work. If someone thought your writing was good enough for a request, then someone else is bound to think it again. Hang in there.
 

Kerosene

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I agree with JoNightshade.

You might have been writing and querying for a long time, but how much time have you devoted to the craft of writing and storytelling? How much effort have you put into finding your style of writing and storytelling?

Publishing, IMO, should be the very last on your list of to-do's.

I scanned through your recent submissions to the SYW section, and they seem more experimental than anything. Do you have a personal style of writing? One that you regularly write in?

What are you trying to do? Rather than being published. Would you like to be successful enough to earn a living off your writing? Are you leaning towards short stories or novels? Do you specialize in a genre? Or have your own niche planned out?


Bombardment of questions, huh? I do mean them in the best of ways so I can help you with your problem.
 
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android415

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I'm echoing JoNightshade here.

You might have been writing and querying for a long time, but how much time have you devoted to the craft of writing and storytelling? How much effort have you put into finding your style of writing and storytelling?

Publishing, IMO, should be the very last on your list of to-do's.

I scanned through your recent submissions to the SYW section, and they seem more experimental than anything. Do you have a personal style of writing? One that you regularly write in?

What are you trying to do? Rather than being published. Would you like to be successful enough to earn a living off your writing? Are you leaning towards short stories or novels? Do you specialize in a genre? Or have your own niche planned out?


Bombardment of questions, huh? I do mean them in the best of ways so I can help you with your problem.


Thanks, I'll ponder these questions.
 
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Kerosene

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Let me give you some advice.

Making a living off your writing is hard, and it doesn't just happen over night. Your greatest chance (I think only chance) is with novels. As you've said, you would like to write novels. I suggest focus solely on that for your own writing, and just do short work to either test things (like a vignette) or for your classes.

The idea of publishing short stories and working up the ranks to novels, is old. Nowadays, it doesn't really matter (unless you have awards and such). I suggest focusing on a single novel. Throw out all the ideas of sequels or other works. Make that one novel your debut in the writing world. There's a split census here if that first novel will create a high mark for your career or just become a starting point. I would lean more towards that one novel planting the seed for your career to grow, so planting a good seed will insure a better growth.

I suggest for you to polish up some of your most current writing from your most current story (best if it's newly finished because WIPs tend to be bad for getting critiqued). Maybe your most recent novel's opening. One you'd like to publish. Edit and finecomb it. Then put it up in the SYW section.
Why? Because you should be focusing on working on the craft of writing and the SYW section can be greatly beneficial in this regard. You'll learn a lot. Getting experimental writing critiqued can sometimes not help your own writing style.
(I don't visit the YA section very often, but I'm a dweller of the SFF section. If you do post something up, I'll either look for it or you can message me to take a look)

Focus on becoming a great writer. Spend 4-8 hours a day either reading or writing (stole this from Stephen King, btw). Work at the craft. Spending some time in the SYW section, both commenting and getting critiqued can greatly help. Read good writing. Read good "on-writing" books like Stein on Writing by Sol Stein(highly recommend, btw). Revise and edit your work, striving for perfection. Look at what works for you as a reader and try to do that as a writer. Never stop refining your work.


EDT: I guess I got you before you edit. Oh well.
 

android415

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^Yep, I edited, but it doesn't really matter.

Thanks for taking the time to give me such great advice. I was/am just feeling a little overwhelmed by my own feelings at the moment, so I was like, I'm going to just step away from the computer right now and go do something else.

Again, I will use this advice and read it again when I am in a more receptive frame of mind!
 

RevanWright

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at this point, I genuinely don't know what to submit anymore, because it seems nobody will like it anyway.

This seems to be what is eating at you. This is frustration, and it is the exact frustration that nearly every one of us has, is, or will go through.

I understand that writing is your dream, and you've got to keep chasing it. This is what you went to college for. After 12 years, it's frustrating as all Hell not to be there yet. But you're still very young. In fact, you're right at the age where someone that's been writing since childhood begins coming into their own as a writer.

Trust me on this. I have a hard job. It's 110 degrees through long summers and cold, miserable winters. I hate it, and I hate the fact that I've spent ten years on one story, pouring my love and attention and will into it, and I still haven't got there. Every rejection I'm getting is killing me. But I keep working to solve the problems and submitting. I only get out of bed every day because I believe that the proverbial gold under the rainbow is there, and I will reach it, no matter what.

Here's what I suggest: start a new story. One that you can continue to grow with, and can truly showcase the skills you've developed. Or, if you truly believe in the story you've written, then rewrite it. Keep at it and keep improving until you find something that really works for you.
And when you miss a step, these guys at AW will be here to pick you back up. That's what they did for me.

If this truthful but admittedly dramatic pep talk hasn't worked, then I suggest a strong drink/batch of brownies and a good book to take your mind off things.
 

JoNightshade

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Just as a follow-up to my earlier post - I'm going to say it: You're only 21. I've been playing this game since I was 16 (novels, that is - started earlier with short stories) and am just now enjoying my definition of "success" at age 31. So, that's half my life spent at this pursuit.

If you're writing something to entertain, to thrill, or for a younger audience, I don't think age is a problem. However, if you're trying to write something for adults, something that speaks to the broader human experience, something deep/meaningful/whatever - to be perfectly honest, it's hard to do that unless you've had your own life experiences. I'm not saying it's true for everyone, but looking back I can see it was definitely true for me.

I needed to get out, live a little, make my own mistakes, have a bunch of crappy jobs, travel, fall in love. While I was out doing that, I was working on my craft all the while. Writing, writing, writing. Subbing subbing subbing. But at some point I think I finally experienced enough to be able to write what I really wanted to write.
 

Jamesaritchie

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Rowling is successful not because she is a skilled storyteller, but because she is a skilled storyteller and also happened to write the right thing at the right time and run into the right people who did the right things. It's a perfect storm of publishing.

Nice theory, and one everyone raises when some writer hits it big. Unfortunately, there isn't one single piece of evidence to show it's true.

A great story with great characters and great writing makes its own timing, and all the right people come to it. Period. There was no perfect story, and it all started with a gentle breeze. READERS flocked to the story and characters and writing, with pretty much no help from anyone in publishing. No one backed Harry Potter until AFTER readers did.

This theory is always nothing more than an excuse for why it didn't happen to me.
 

Jamesaritchie

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I want to write because I am in love with storytelling. I said that in my rant. If I didn't write novels, I would make movies. If I didn't make movies, I would paint. Any form will do, I just chose writing.



Realistically, I just want to be published, somewhere. I can't even do that. Hence...this rant.

First, any form will not do. You may have the talent to do all these things, or none of them. But you must not only choose just one, but master it before thinking about the others. I'ma storyteller, but my form of storytelling is writing. This is a specific think, requires specific skills and talent. Both take a while to master, if you can master them at all.

If you choose writing, it needs to be because you love writing more than anything else, and have more talent for it than anything else.

Seconds, "I just want to be published somewhere" is often the same thing as saying "I don't want to be published at all". It's an all too common mistake.

Realistically, six months to a year from now, where do you want to be published?

If it's in a magazine, which magazine. Pick one or two or three, read at least a year's worth of issues, and write stories that fit those magazines.

You have to write what readers want to read, not just whatever strikes your fancy. This should mean also writing what you most love to read, which is how you pick the magazines to write for.

The same is true of novels. Where do you want to have a novel published? It should be at the publisher or three that buys and releases the novels you most love to read. Here, too, you have to write what readers want to read. You write the kind of novel you most love to read, not just the kind you most want to write.

Outside of this, how much reading, and how much writing, are you doing day in and day out? Writing for publication is a business, and you have to treat it like one. You have to put in the hours, you have to give the public what it wants, and in the way it wants it. Do it right, and it will also be what you want to write, and what you want to read, but it must always be what the public wants to read.

There's nothing wrong with dreaming big. The bigger, the better. You may not reach your goal, but the bigger you dream, and the harder you work, the closer you'll probably come.

You do need some talent, you do need some skill, but this is no where most fail. Most fail because they don't understand the business, they don't put in the hours, and they make excuses for both. They are their own worst enemies.

It is not about getting critiques. It is not about beta readers. Darned near every story that arrives at a magazine, or in a an agent or editor's slush, has had both in spades, and they almost all stink on ice. It's about being good, about being original (And beta reader/critiquers are wonderful at destroying both, turning everything into same old, same old), and about reading and writing almost every last day, but with an eye toward what the reader wants.

You may lack the talent, you may lack the self-discipline, yu may lack the work ethic, and you may lack the common sense needed to succeed. Time will tell.

But you're only twenty-one, and very darned few writers accomplish anything until they're well past this age.

Forget "storyteller". That's a catchall phrase that will work against you. If you really want to be a writer, then read every darned day, write every darned day, and give readers what they want, which should also be what you most love to read. Do this often enough, for long enough, and if you have any talent, you will succeed.

On the other side of this coin, don't be a damned fool about it. Give it another five years. If you work as much and as hard as you should, five years is more than enough time to show some serious signs that you have what it takes. You may not be rich and famous by then, but if you aren't published in a fair number of places, odds are high that you never will be.
 

gothicangel

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And yes, I have gotten critiques before. I am an English major who has to defend her (creative) thesis to advisers, so I've gotten stuff from them about my writing style and voice that have been very helpful. I'm using some of the critique I get in my latest works!

I am also an English graduate, and I can tell you this: what would get you a first class honours is not the same thing that would get a yes from a commissioning editor.
 

Phaeal

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Let me tell you something else: You have to be incredibly, ridiculously stubborn once you're convinced that what you're offering is good. Because it may take a looooooong time before you find the agent or editor who agrees with you.

I like to brag about the 281 queries it took me to find my wonderful dreamy agent. And there are people around here even more stubborn than me!

The trick is having the patience and humility to earn your stubborness, to read and read and read and write and write and write and study and study and study until you've honed your taste to the point where you can apply it to your own work.

Art is long. Slow down. Ultramarathon runners need to pace themselves. ;)

PS: Also, if you're willing to sub to nonpaying markets, you should be able to get some short story credits. Pro and semi-pro story markets are tough to crack. Not that you shouldn't try. Anyhow, you don't need the short story creds to sell a novel, but if you like writing shorts for themselves, keep trying.
 

Lady Chipmunk

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I believe the conventional wisdom, said by someone not me whose name I do not remember, is that you have to write a million words before you get to the point where you know what your doing. Or something like that. I am obviously paraphrasing.

Point is, while there are always the exceptions, most people work for years and years and years until they get anywhere. And, brutal honesty here, some never do. It's an amazingly tough field and lots of people with talent don't make it.

Which is no reason to not keep trying. You can't possibly succeed if you stop.
 

Fuchsia Groan

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So, you got me thinking about back when I was in college. (I'm old.) Here's a story that might be instructive, or not.

I went to school with a lot of ambitious young writers. T.S. Eliot used to work at our college literary magazine, so there was lots of history/pressure! However, some of us ended up more successful than others.

Two people I knew (or knew of) got publishing contracts in college. One wrote a sensationalist memoir and has continued to sell well, cultivating her "outrageous" public persona. (I recall my friend who had a class with her mocking her writing.) The other produced a couple of literary novels, and I haven't heard of him since.

Then there was the girl who'd started publishing stories even before college. She's had bestselling novels now. I remain jealous of her, yet I have no desire to write what she writes.

Then there was the guy whose amazing, gut-wrenching short stories everybody loved. We were in awe of him. Several years ago I met him again; he was self-publishing a collection. His stories were as good as ever, but literary trends had moved on. A year after that, he committed suicide.

He's the second suicide I know of from our group. The other, a good friend of mine, was an excellent poet. We were all in awe of her, too.

There was the guy who turned Amish after college and became a successful poet only then (insofar as any poet is successful).

There was the guy who toiled for decades on a novel that eventually earned him a $600K advance and became a bestseller.

There's the brilliant guy who's had his criticism appear in major magazines but whose fiction, to my knowledge, remains obscure.

And the one who struggled for years with a high-concept novel and kept getting brutal critiques. The novel (not his first) was published at the right moment for the concept and became a bestseller.

There's a good friend of mine who showed no inclination toward fiction writing in college but started publishing ten or fifteen years after graduation and seems to be doing well.

There are the writers who went on to become doctors, lawyers and college professors.

And there's me, sort of making a living at writing but not much closer to publishing my fiction, despite having written literally thousands of pages in various genres.

The moral I see in this story is that there is none. Talent and persistence are both valuable, but neither guarantees you anything. If you write what you want to write and learn your craft, however, you are guaranteed the rewards of a job well done. They may not include fame and fortune, but they are rewards nonetheless.

If you bank on being successful quickly, you may well be disappointed, because it's a crapshoot. But writing is not a glamour profession. You don't need to be a hot twentysomething in your author photo to get a book published. Many of yesterday's writing "prodigies" are forgotten today. (Back then, we were all envious of Bret Easton Ellis. He's still around, of course, but he's had to develop a professional persona that transcends "kid who got famous for precocious book full of sex and drugs.")

No guarantees.
 
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shakeysix

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Enjoy being twenty one. Everything comes in stages. Great success at an early age often carries a hefty emotional price tag. Write every day and read what you want, after you have read what was assigned but, unless you are Stephen Crane or Mozart, don't count on life being over at thirty. You have a long, long time to master your craft.-- s6
 
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