Hiding your scent

I think the water thing comes from hunting with dogs. When they reach water, they can't follow the scent, but I think that is just because the scent doesn't stay on the water (especially running water) as it does on land. But once the trail has been found on the other side of the water, they can follow it again. The wet person still smells.

Kind of depends on the state of the city. Is it destroyed, or just abandoned? If it was just abandoned, your characters could try to look for scent-killing deodorants, detergents, spray or special scent-free clothes (hunters usually wear those) in some stores.

Something else that's important: Always, always try and make your characters move downwind of the vampires/dogs. The scent should be carried away from the pack, as far away as possible, so it's vital to not have the wind carry your scent right into the nose of them. You can easily find out if you are travelling downwind if you feel the wind blowing in your face when you face the dogs. Or, you know, simply use a handkerchief.

I would advise you to avoid all water. My logic tells me it would simply wash away the scent-killers, making you an easy prey again.

Please note that all of this comes from simple research as I'm not a hunter or anything, so you might want to wait for an expert's response on this one.

Cheers and I hope I could help,
Cookie

Mythbusteres did a whole episode on Bloodhound tracking.

http://videos.howstuffworks.com/discovery/30220-mythbusters-bloodhounds-video.htm

Basically - if you 'interrupt' the trail... it takes time for the dogs to find it. But find it they will.

Pepper. Just spread some pepper on your trail. It will destroy a dog's nose for hours. It works like pepper spray. Otherwise, anything that is stronger smelling then you and will burn the nostrils will cover the scent. Gasoline for example. Skunk probably.

Wolves are not big scent trackers. A lot better then humans, they will fail dismally compared to a beagle or other dog that is bred for tracking.

Wolves are mainly using their noses to scout out the situation, like looking and listening. But smell travels with the wind, and you're blind to scent over about half of a circle around you. Think about downwind and upwind. Understand that in a city, the buildings cause the wind to change direction in ways that are unusual.

There is a MYTHBUSTERS episode where they're tracked by a dog. See http://mythbustersresults.com/hair-of-the-dog. But realize there's a lot of differences between a trained bloodhound and the average dog.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

scent detection

There is nothing that will mask the scent of prey/humans when being scented out by a canine or wolf. Period. Water actually conducts scent, and search dogs are used to find the bodies of people below the water surface. Scent molecules float to the surface and will be transported by both air currents above the water and water currents.

If the humans/prey are inside the building they will be detected. The only scenario that would work for you is to have them jump from building to building, especially if it's hot. Sunlight and hot air will draw scent upwards in what we call a chimneying effect. If it's cold or at night the scent will drop to the ground although it will be confusing to the wolves, possibly buying your people time.

jclarkdawe said:

Pepper. Just spread some pepper on your trail. It will destroy a dog's nose for hours. It works like pepper spray. Otherwise, anything that is stronger smelling then you and will burn the nostrils will cover the scent. Gasoline for example. Skunk probably.

Wolves are not big scent trackers. A lot better then humans, they will fail dismally compared to a beagle or other dog that is bred for tracking.

Wolves are mainly using their noses to scout out the situation, like looking and listening. But smell travels with the wind, and you're blind to scent over about half of a circle around you. Think about downwind and upwind. Understand that in a city, the buildings cause the wind to change direction in ways that are unusual...

Click to expand...

Pepper will not mask the odor, although it will be an irritant. Wolves can and will both trail and air scent, superbly. Ground tracking is not the most efficent way for a hunter to hunt so there is no reason for wolves to adopt this method, although they are certainly capable of it. Tracking is where a dog will follow footstep by footstep (think Bloodhound). In search and rescue we generally will use air scenting dogs as opposed to ground tracking dogs although ground trackers certainly have their place.

Not sure how you draw the conculsion between a wolf and a beagle. Wolves work for themselves and can not be *trained* the way a beagle or other domestic dog can be trained so there really is no comparison. Wolves have been known to be able to scent prey from a mile away. Their very existance is dependent on this ability. Beagles were bred to trail or track a rabbit (preferably slowly) so the rabbit will circle back to the waiting hunter.

And yes, being upwind will provide a buffer to being detected.

I trained search and rescue canines for years from wilderness air-scent to urban man-trailing and human remains detection. There are a whole lot of aspects which will play into your situation. Please PM me and I'll be happy to work with you more specifically. I can give you general info, but I think we should discuss your setting (area, structures, and weather), the people involved, and a lot of other aspects to hold your readers suspension of disbelief in check. Unfortunately, I think to make a scene like this work you'll need to share some plot details you may not be ready to publicize (thus the PM), but I'm happy to help. I'm on bedrest after surgery, so have some time to share if you need. Let me know.

Staying on top of a building may help slow the critters down temporarily (like seconds or minutes if you're lucky) but dogs aren't dumb. They know prey species live in the trees (squirrels, coons, etc.) so a few animals might not think to look up, but as soon as one figures it out, the whole pack will be on them.

Air currents in an urban search are really tweaked by buildings and do strange (very cool things - I'm a scent theory nerd). The water may create some interesting scent movement, but sadly it won't thwart the wolves too much.

Also the fact that its an abandoned environment means that your protags scent will be very strong without others to saturate the area. I have a few thoughts on how you could do this, but again, PM me. This sounds like a fun challenge!

Elaine Margarett said:

Pepper will not mask the odor, although it will be an irritant. I'm sorry I wasn't clearer here. Yes, nothing masks odor. But pepper and certain other chemicals can cause sufficient irritation to limit a dog's ability to smell for some period of time, depending upon dosage.

Wolves can and will both trail and air scent, superbly. Again, sorry for not being clearer. The dog family, including wolves and foxes, have, I believe, the best ability to smell. Incredibly better then a human. But that doesn't mean that all members of the dog family are equal.

Ground tracking is not the most efficent way for a hunter to hunt so there is no reason for wolves to adopt this method, although they are certainly capable of it. Tracking is where a dog will follow footstep by footstep (think Bloodhound). In search and rescue we generally will use air scenting dogs as opposed to ground tracking dogs although ground trackers certainly have their place. I'm glad you pointed this out. I think the original poster didn't quite understand this, and I was conflating terms.

Not sure how you draw the conculsion between a wolf and a beagle. Wolves work for themselves and can not be *trained* the way a beagle or other domestic dog can be trained so there really is no comparison. Wolves have been known to be able to scent prey from a mile away. Their very existance is dependent on this ability. Beagles were bred to trail or track a rabbit (preferably slowly) so the rabbit will circle back to the waiting hunter. Here's a chart of the scent receptors for humans and some dog breeds.

Humans 5 million
Dachshund 125 million
Fox Terrier 147 million
German Shepherd 225 million
Beagle 225 million
Blood Hound 300 million

I can't find similar numbers for wolves, but as the high end of dogs are specifically bred for scenting ability, my guess is that these numbers will exceed a wolf. Further, the high end of dogs used for their noses' ability are going to be like human intelligence. Maybe not all genius sniffers, but better then average.

What I wanted to suggest is that putting wolves as equivalent with the top sensors of the dog world is probably over-rating wolves. My guess is that wolves are probably closer to the high end average, but that the top dogs can probably beat a wolf consistently.

And yes, being upwind will provide a buffer to being detected.

Click to expand...

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

I respectfully disagree. An animal dependent on its ability to scent for it's survival will be superior to an animal bred by man for that specific purpose.

Domesticating dogs *removed* much of these abilities. Selective breeding to improve a dog's scenting ability simply returned to a degree what thousands of years of domestication took away.

BTW, I grew up with beagles, all with field trial champions in their background. I switched to German Shepherds once I grew up, and have trained GSDs to find people, drugs and explosives. I'll take a GSD over a beagle, any day. <g>

The wolves presumably will have difficulty with doors. I suggest periodic simple barricades as they go through buildings, and traps if possible

I would go with George. Unless the vampire just uses the wolves to find the humans and then attacks himself. Or herself.

Here's a question: is this wolf pack made up of regular wolves, or werewolves?

Since there are vampires, I'm thinking it could be either. And quite frankly, if you're dealing with mythical creatures you have a lot more leeway. You want them limited on scenting abilities? Viola--your werewolves can't scent as well or have limits due to their partial human nature. You want them to be able to smell a squirrel burp from ten miles away? Done. They're your beasties. Be able to open doors? Okey dokey--again, your beasts, and part human so even in transformation they might have opposable thumbs. That said, even with mythical beasts it's good to have an understanding of what a real, related animal can and can't do. Some of us would be just dorky enough to call an author on something blatantly outside the realm of the possible.

Shifters might not work with your WIP, of course. You might be looking at 100% real wolves. Just wondering if you do, in fact, have room to play around a little.

Any studies involving bloodhounds is moot because they are bred and trained strictly to track. Which is nose to ground, and if the trail on the ground is interrupted they are held up until they find it again.

Wolves don't operate that way. They are going to work much more like a search and rescue dog works, which is using a combination of trailing and air scenting. An air scent dog is encouraged to basically put its nose in the air and follow the quarry that way. So they won't necessarily trace the exact steps, they may end up taking a shortcut, or they may get lost.

Water will not throw off a tracking canine. My aunt's dog is trained specifically for underwater cadaver recovery. She can take her dog out in a boat, in a search pattern across the lake and it will tell her when they're above the dead body. She's found bodies more than 30' underwater this way.

When I was hiding for the search and rescue trainings, my job was to go out and try to fool the dogs for as long as possible. The longest it ever took to find me was about 8 hours. I had the wind at my back and jumped off a big ledge into a really big hole, then buried myself in wet leaves.

Because they're air scenting, you want the wind at your back. Try licking your finger and hold it up (outdoors), you can feel the air direction better. There are a lot more complicated things you can do with wind direction and eddies, etc. to trick them and I suggest taking Sonata up on their offer.

Beyond that, cigarette smoke really screws up dogs noses for scent work. It doesn't incapacitate them, but it makes it harder. The local search and rescue group had to ban smoking around incident scenes because it did make things noticeably harder on the dogs. They're also careful not to let car exhaust vent anywhere near the dog's crates, as that is thought to interfere. I don't know if it actually does though.

Don't know how much it might help, but what would happen if they found and rolled in/smeared themselves with, wolf feces. Probably wouldn't block all scent, but might mask some. Would also indicate desperation, as you wouldn't do it unless you were desperate.

Elaine Margarett said:

There is nothing that will mask the scent of prey/humans when being scented out by a canine or wolf. Period. Water actually conducts scent, and search dogs are used to find the bodies of people below the water surface. Scent molecules float to the surface and will be transported by both air currents above the water and water currents.

If the humans/prey are inside the building they will be detected. The only scenario that would work for you is to have them jump from building to building, especially if it's hot. Sunlight and hot air will draw scent upwards in what we call a chimneying effect. If it's cold or at night the scent will drop to the ground although it will be confusing to the wolves, possibly buying your people time.

Click to expand...

Partly true - there's nothing that will mask scent entirely, but there are ways to prevent a specific dog from being able to follow your scent for short periods:

1) cigarette smoke and car exhaust kill their ability to smell for half an hour or so

2) scent spreads more on dry days than it does when wet - it's a pain in the neck to search when it's raining, because you're soaked and visibility is bad and the scent is bad too.

3) scent also spreads more at certain times of day than others (i.e. early morning when the ground is warming and the air is rising versus evening when everything is cooling down).

4) scent goes with the wind and follows the terrain downhill and into gulleys/valleys/alleyways.

5) underwater cadaver detection is actually pretty hit-or-miss - when the dog does alert on a section of water at the surface, you have to figure out where the water came from That can take quite a bit of thermodynamics to track currents and heat levels and time. While splashing through a river won't stop a dog from being able to follow you via air scent (because your scent is still hanging around on the wind), it does make it more difficult for the humans to track you via footprints/trail/trash left behind/etc.

6) Air scent only spreads when the air is moving - it does still spread in still air, but very, very slowly. If your protagonist can find somewhere airtight to hide (a closed room with no a/c, for example), that can really hinder the scent from spreading. There are products sold for hunters which can also help mask your scent (airtight gloves/mask/clothes, for example) - they won't stop your scent entirely, but they will reduce it.

7) Elevators would slow everything down, since they'd have to check every floor for his scent signature

8) If you're high up in the air, like in a tree or on a building, your scent falls down in a cone shape (altered by the air currents, which themselves are altered by nearby buildings). This can make it really tricky to track where you are if they think you might be on the ground because it spreads your scent out without giving it directionality.

Canotila said:

Any studies involving bloodhounds is moot because they are bred and trained strictly to track. Which is nose to ground, and if the trail on the ground is interrupted they are held up until they find it again.

Wolves don't operate that way. They are going to work much more like a search and rescue dog works, which is using a combination of trailing and air scenting. An air scent dog is encouraged to basically put its nose in the air and follow the quarry that way. So they won't necessarily trace the exact steps, they may end up taking a shortcut, or they may get lost.

Water will not throw off a tracking canine. My aunt's dog is trained specifically for underwater cadaver recovery. She can take her dog out in a boat, in a search pattern across the lake and it will tell her when they're above the dead body. She's found bodies more than 30' underwater this way.

When I was hiding for the search and rescue trainings, my job was to go out and try to fool the dogs for as long as possible. The longest it ever took to find me was about 8 hours. I had the wind at my back and jumped off a big ledge into a really big hole, then buried myself in wet leaves.

Because they're air scenting, you want the wind at your back. Try licking your finger and hold it up (outdoors), you can feel the air direction better. There are a lot more complicated things you can do with wind direction and eddies, etc. to trick them and I suggest taking Sonata up on their offer.

Beyond that, cigarette smoke really screws up dogs noses for scent work. It doesn't incapacitate them, but it makes it harder. The local search and rescue group had to ban smoking around incident scenes because it did make things noticeably harder on the dogs. They're also careful not to let car exhaust vent anywhere near the dog's crates, as that is thought to interfere. I don't know if it actually does though.

Click to expand...

(quoting this one too because it has a lot of good points)

Bloodhounds scent on the ground, following a trail. Most other dogs do air scent, following wind patterns and whatnot. Bloodhounds do have spectacular noses compared to other breeds, but it can also take them longer because they don't take shortcuts - if you run in giant squiggles, they'll track the whole thing instead of just getting the gist of it and going straight.

I think, given the right setting and plot backstory, you've got a good shot of eluding werewolves in an urban environment

(My background: I did K9 search and rescue for four years a few years back, air scent, mostly land and water cadaver searches. My dog was live find trained, though, so we did a few of those too. I won't profess to be an expert by any means, but I did learn a lot!)

Dry, still weather really ought to help your protag escape the wolves. Moisture catches scent (puddles, dew on grass, etc) and the smell will pool there (stinky bacteria love skin rafts and water). Also, lack of wind will not push the scent particles around much making tracking more difficult. Alternately, a heavy storm would make tracking virtually impossible. What time of day or night might be important, too, but if the air's hot, dry, and not moving much that should be enough to help your protags.

I'll give you a few ideas about how scent works, then you can work what you want into your story and ignore what you don't. If you get to something and aren't sure, let me know. When you're ready, I'd also be happy to beta read your scene to look for logistical issues, if you like.

That said, if your group splits up, that will help the odds. I think that your protag running atop roofs is a great idea. It should confuse most of the dogs for quite a while anyway, so long as none of them actually see him and bust him that way. They might catch his scent, but it would be so diluted from distance and height that they would have a hard time pinpointing him, unless he stops for any length of time.

Remember, the longer any of your characters stay in one place, the stronger their scent will be there. So, say you hide someone in an alcove, their scent will get stuck there for hours after. If you stuff them in a closet with a closed door, the scent will seep under the door, but it will be much more difficult for the dog, because it will have to have proximity to the door in order to detect the scent. Once it does though the smell will be so strong, there won't be any shaking the animal.

Unfortunately for your protags, an abandoned urban environment will be free of human scent meaning that the character's scent will be very easy to pick up for the wolves.

Rule of thumb - scent moves like smoke. Watch it slide over pavement, then get tangled in grass and bushes. Something to think about when you're moving your characters around. The more "props" the more the scent will get caught and pooled.

Quick lesson on how (we think) scenting works for dogs. Dogs follow essentially two scents - ground (or what comes off your shoes exactly where you step - that's bloodhound territory, and generally the weaker scent) and "air-scent." Humans shed a downright creepy amount of particles off the top of their heads, which then flows like a cone outward with the wind, with the person as the "point". This is our strongest scent loss by far. So covering your protag's head well won't hide the scent entirely, but it should help a little. Lets just say, I never remove my hat when I'm hunting.

We're not sure exactly how, but dog's can sense hormones very easily too. Example - if one of your characters is especially panicky (lots of adrenalin pumping through the system), that character will be particularly easy for your wolves to find, and downright distracting from other calmer characters. Sweating heavily, breathing hard, and adrenalin all stink and your wolves will find that fast. A blood trail will also make it super easy (I'm sure the vamp would agree), so if any one is injured, they will have a particularly hard time.

If your character goes into water, the wolves will likely work it out, especially if he's under any physical duress. After he leaves, his wet footprints will be like a yellow brick road for them to follow, at least if the wolves are hot on his trail.

A word on wolves. I know these are "special" wolves, but a "natural" wolf will not want to split up to find their quarry. They are far weaker as individuals. Just something to consider when writing your scenes.
Also, all dogs, especially those with a high prey drive (like wolves) can not resist a chase. Its ingrained in their DNA. So if some character gets the bright idea to just run, they are so going down. There will be no outrunning the wolves unless they can get an obstacle between them. I'm not kidding, a fast-moving, shrieking "prey" kicks in a very primal instinct in predators and they just have to chase, unless their teeth are already sunk into something yummy. I thought that might spark an idea for you with this scene, so I wanted to share.

Hope some of that helps, and my meds haven't made my brain so fuzzy that only I think I'm making sense. Please don't hesitate to ask more questions. Bad portrayals of wolves and dogs is a major peeve of mine, so I'd like to help however I can.

Also, in response to some earlier posts (too lazy to go looking for quotes: sorry) one of the reasons dogs make such excellent tracking machines is because they have the ability to single out an odor and mark it. They actually have a special compartment in their olfactory system just for that purpose (again, we think - there's still a lot human's just don't "get"). So smoke, coffee grounds, febreze, whatever will only confuse them for a few moments at best. Once they've imprinted a scent they can single it out with incredibly accuracy. While smoke and exhaust won't help them breathe by any means, it won't stop them either. It just makes their job harder.

As far as underwater HRD (human remains detection) goes, bodies release gasses as they decomp, which float to the surface, so that's what the dogs key in on as far as we know. After working with an HRD dog, I just can't bring myself to swim anywhere that white foam builds up in a river or lake. "Body foam" - gives me the heebie-jeebies.

Elaine Margarett said:

Pepper will not mask the odor, although it will be an irritant. Wolves can and will both trail and air scent, superbly. Ground tracking is not the most efficent way for a hunter to hunt so there is no reason for wolves to adopt this method, although they are certainly capable of it. Tracking is where a dog will follow footstep by footstep (think Bloodhound). In search and rescue we generally will use air scenting dogs as opposed to ground tracking dogs although ground trackers certainly have their place.

Not sure how you draw the conculsion between a wolf and a beagle. Wolves work for themselves and can not be *trained* the way a beagle or other domestic dog can be trained so there really is no comparison. Wolves have been known to be able to scent prey from a mile away. Their very existance is dependent on this ability. Beagles were bred to trail or track a rabbit (preferably slowly) so the rabbit will circle back to the waiting hunter.

And yes, being upwind will provide a buffer to being detected.

Click to expand...

I've been looking to actually train some of my dogs for search & rescue, and would be grateful for advice, websites etc on this. Maybe I'm googling the wrong keywords cause I've found very little. Please do contact me if you have info.

efreysson said:

Related, how good is canine hearing?
.

Click to expand...

much like people, depends on the individual. We have one Great Pyr who is all but deaf, and completely relies on memories of where fences are and his sight which is poor. I think he operates mostly on scent.

Others can hear me give them a spoken request from 1/8 of a mile away and follow complex instructions

ECathers said:

I've been looking to actually train some of my dogs for search & rescue, and would be grateful for advice, websites etc on this. Maybe I'm googling the wrong keywords cause I've found very little. Please do contact me if you have info.

Click to expand...

Hi ECathers. I see you're a fairly recent member. Welcome to AW. My dialup isn't letting me PM so the short answer would be for you to contact www.ardainc.org (American Rescue Dog Assoc.) and google NASAR (National Assoc. of Search and Rescue). That will point you in the right direction. Good luck!

Sorry for the quick hijack. Please return to your regularly scheduled discussion. ;-)

If these are natural wolves and not some super hybrid type, then they have natural enemies, like cougars.

Find a sporting good store, (one that is well stocked), and see if they carry cougar pellets, made to smell like cougar piss. Its how a cougar marks its territory.

Your sprinkle it around the building they are in, and the wolves stay away. Or maybe skunk pellets, or others that ward off predators.

We had to sprinkle fox pellets around our property to keep out raccoons. It works until it rains, and then we would have to do it again. Once the raccoons got the idea that a fox was marking its territory, they just started staying away.

As to when your characters are on the move, they could mix up a match of those pellets in water, and then soak their pants in the stuff. The scent will be confusing to any wolves tracking by air...