Cali parents want 2nd opinion on proposed heart surgery for 5-mo-old son, then CPS takes son

Chrissy said:

I'm personally not okay with the control the state has in the "interest of the children," generally speaking.

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I can live with it. Sometimes I wish it interfered more.

There's been a case recently, where a pair of religious nutters managed to kill off a second child by refusing to get it medical attention, instead relying on prayer. They tried this four years back with one kid, and that child died, and they were effectively let off and now those useless shits have done it again. And they've seven more children!

If the state had done their job and removed their kids after the first death, the second would never have happened, but no, parents have rights too, and their rights are apparently greater than those of the vulnerable people in their charge.

Some people aren't fit to be parents. This is not to say there shouldn't be oversight, and I think in the case the OP mentioned CPS made a mistake. But if the mistake had to be made, I'd rather it erred on the side of the safety of the kid. A child taken away unnecessarily is horrific, but that child can be returned. A child dead because of its parents is less reversible.

Before having any opinion I would want to know if the kid really does need the surgery pretty soon. The heart can act different minute from minute and the first hospital had full records. I would lean to thinking a false negative was more likely than a false positive.

I don't know whether CPS did wrong here or not - like a few others said, it depends on whether the child really does need surgery.

However, I am pretty certain that CPS here is grossly underfunded, and the biggest tragedies have occurred when it didn't act, rather than when it did.

Chrissy said:

I do think there are some parents who are... sociopathic, for lack of a better description. But I think those types of parents are very few and far between..

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Actually, they are many, and close together.

But, what kuwisdelu was responding to was this, which you said:

Chrissy said:

In my whole life I've never actually seen anyone love kids more than the kids' own parents do (adoptive parents included)

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He was not addressing the specific incident that provoked this thread, but that blanket statement. In your life and specific personal experience, perhaps it applies, but there exists ample evidence to the contrary in general public experience.

(And I was also an adopted child, and never a victim of any abusive behavior.)

caw

clintl said:

However, I am pretty certain that CPS here is grossly underfunded, and the biggest tragedies have occurred when it didn't act, rather than when it did.

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I just moved out from that area. (I notice you're from Davis. *waves*) Like most state agencies they're underfunded and overworked. The more I think about it, the more I wonder what exactly the hospital records said to make them move so quickly. Maybe more info will come Monday.

I wonder if the occasional issue with CPS is the same issue with airport security and zero tolerance in schools--it's a lot easier to crack down hard on things that you know about, but that might not warrant a major reaction, than it is to predict or identify the major things.

In this case, I don't feel like I can judge without more info.

clintl said:

I don't know whether CPS did wrong here or not - like a few others said, it depends on whether the child really does need surgery.

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Yes, I agree. I suppose, at this point, we can't really tell, but it seems the CPS might have had reason to believe the baby did need surgery.

Parental kindness, just this past week:

http://news.discovery.com/human/psy...rrested-over-death-of-second-child-130424.htm

caw

Celia Cyanide said:

Yes, I agree. I suppose, at this point, we can't really tell, but it seems the CPS might have had reason to believe the baby did need surgery.

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And I found it interesting that Kaiser Permanente said that the baby was "fine".

I know in the Washington DC area, Kaiser Permanente has a terrible reputation for under-treating illness, misdiagnosis, and mismanagement of chronic conditions.

In the 90s, it was the go-to choice for HMO for local businesses and quickly fell out of favor with the population for apathetic, wrong, and labyrinthine healthcare.

Chrissy said:

But it took a long time. I can say with 100% certainty that neither I nor my kids would have been "better off" if the state had intervened during that process.

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You had someone to intervene. Your mother. Someone still intervened. Not everyone has someone to intervene like that, and that's when the state needs to step in.

Chrissy said:

Like I said, I think these kind of situations in which there is an OBVIOUS need for intervention due to abuse/neglect are far more rare than the cases that come before CPS where kids are taken away from their parents.

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Part of the point of my story is even when there is abuse, it's not always obvious. It was obvious to me, but none of the adults around me.

I think culture plays a large role in that, and I'm also sure how CPS handles it's cases varies greatly from state to state. The girl I knew lived in Carmel, IN, a very conservative area, very prone to thinking "that could never happen here".

clintl said:

However, I am pretty certain that CPS here is grossly underfunded, and the biggest tragedies have occurred when it didn't act, rather than when it did.

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Same with where I live. It seems like twice a year one of the local news networks does a big story on the many failures of CPS and the children who have died because they failed to step in. I once dated a girl who worked for the state with families where abuse was suspected: against children, spouses, elderly parents, whomever. It's pretty much a no-win. You're going to have times when you go too far in protecting a suspected victim who was actually in no danger at all, or act too late and don't save a victim. Unless it's a definitive and wildly egregious error, I tend to cut people in this line of work a bit of slack.

Jcomp said:

Same with where I live. It seems like twice a year one of the local news networks does a big story on the many failures of CPS and the children who have died because they failed to step in. I once dated a girl who worked for the state with families where abuse was suspected: against children, spouses, elderly parents, whomever. It's pretty much a no-win. You're going to have times when you go too far in protecting a suspected victim who was actually in no danger at all, or act too late and don't save a victim. Unless it's a definitive and wildly egregious error, I tend to cut people in this line of work a bit of slack.

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And no news agency is going to bother to report the mistakes they don't make.

clintl said:

I don't know whether CPS did wrong here or not - like a few others said, it depends on whether the child really does need surgery.

However, I am pretty certain that CPS here is grossly underfunded, and the biggest tragedies have occurred when it didn't act, rather than when it did.

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Plus, of course, California has some 38 million people, more than say, Canada.

Any organization dealing with social problems is going to have the intrinsic problems and some major screw-ups -- though it's not clear that this is one of them.

But the reason these stories get such play is that they reinforce a certain worldview -- that government is not to be trusted at best, or is actively evil at worst.

These stories are used as cautionary tales -- as examples of what happens when we allow government to "take away our rights." It's seen by some as the norm, as proof that government overreaches and should have its power severely limited.

rugcat said:

Plus, of course, California has some 38 million people, more than say, Canada.

Any organization dealing with social problems is going to have the intrinsic problems and some major screw-ups -- though it's not clear that this is one of them.

But the reason these stories get such play is that they reinforce a certain worldview -- that government is not to be trusted at best, or is actively evil at worst.

These stories are used as cautionary tales -- as examples of what happens when we allow government to "take away our rights." It's seen by some as the norm, as proof that government overreaches and should have its power severely limited.

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We saw another shining example over in the "600-page" thread just today.

There's a helluva lot of smoke for there to be no fire.

This seems to me like a very unfortunate mistake, and I don't really fault anyone - the parents made a mistake taking the baby out without discharging it, and it sounds like CPS didn't get all their facts straight before they jumped in and removed the kid. Both parties were doing what they thought necessary to protect the child.

What is bothering me is that this has not been very quickly resolved. If it seems obvious a mistake could have been made, this should go before a judge ASAP. There is absolutely no reason to keep the child from its parents. At the very least these people should be allowed supervised visits with the child for longer than an hour. Good lord, if someone tried to keep me from my 5 month old for more than a day I would go ballistic.

Perks said:

And I found it interesting that Kaiser Permanente said that the baby was "fine".

I know in the Washington DC area, Kaiser Permanente has a terrible reputation for under-treating illness, misdiagnosis, and mismanagement of chronic conditions.

In the 90s, it was the go-to choice for HMO for local businesses and quickly fell out of favor with the population for apathetic, wrong, and labyrinthine healthcare.

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I do not know anything about DC Kaiser, but CA Kaiser did in fact have a really bad reputation - in the past. They have totally turned that around and are now exemplary, and I say this both from experience and general consensus. I believe they're one of the outstanding health care models in our nation now.

And this is from a skeptic - my mom's a nurse, and growing up we heard horrific stories about Kaiser. When my husband got a job with Kaiser health care I flipped out. But they've completely won this skeptic over. I've been through several health emergencies in the past couple of years, and I dread to think what would have happened to me if I hadn't had Kaiser.

Kaiser IS conservative. They would rather observe and monitor wherever possible rather than open someone up and cause even more trauma. I can't speak to this baby's particular heart condition, but conventional wisdom with heart babies is that you want to delay surgery if possible to get the baby big and strong enough to handle the shock. Of course this is always arguable, but it sounds to me like the parents were aware that heart surgery was in the baby's future and were watching him closely.

blacbird said:

Actually, they are many, and close together.

But, what kuwisdelu was responding to was this, which you said:



He was not addressing the specific incident that provoked this thread, but that blanket statement. In your life and specific personal experience, perhaps it applies, but there exists ample evidence to the contrary in general public experience.

(And I was also an adopted child, and never a victim of any abusive behavior.)

caw

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By that I meant that (at least in my experience) no one besides a parent (like a CPS worker, for example, or any one of us talking about hypothetical children in general) is going to love those kids and care about them like their own parents do. The parents and the children have relationships. Yes, there are some really bad parents, but, outside of abuse/neglect I think overwhelmingly kids are better off with their parents.

kuwisdelu said:

You had someone to intervene. Your mother. Someone still intervened. Not everyone has someone to intervene like that, and that's when the state needs to step in.

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She didn't "intervene" though. She didn't come over and take my baby.

But yes, I had her help as an option and I took it. So in that way I was fortunate where some people aren't.

Part of the point of my story is even when there is abuse, it's not always obvious. It was obvious to me, but none of the adults around me.

I think culture plays a large role in that, and I'm also sure how CPS handles it's cases varies greatly from state to state. The girl I knew lived in Carmel, IN, a very conservative area, very prone to thinking "that could never happen here".

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Right, and how can we best resolve these problems? Education. Information. Not the CPS police. (IMO)

Chrissy said:

By that I meant that (at least in my experience) no one besides a parent (like a CPS worker, for example, or any one of us talking about hypothetical children in general) is going to love those kids and care about them like their own parents do. The parents and the children have relationships. Yes, there are some really bad parents, but, outside of abuse/neglect I think overwhelmingly kids are better off with their parents.

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But wait. Aren't abuse and neglect exactly the kind of problems we're talking about and why CPS exists?

She didn't "intervene" though. She didn't come over and take my baby.

But yes, I had her help as an option and I took it. So in that way I was fortunate where some people aren't.

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Point was you and your child had that support system. Not true of everyone.

Right, and how can we best resolve these problems? Education. Information. Not the CPS police. (IMO)

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Education and information wouldn't have helped in that case. Tell me how it would have helped. What would have helped was some kind of police actually doing their job and intervening. Whether that's the actual police arresting the abuser or CPS removing the child or both, whatever works.

I'd have settled for a vigilante.

Like I said, I think these kind of situations in which there is an OBVIOUS need for intervention due to abuse/neglect are far more rare than the cases that come before CPS where kids are taken away from their parents.

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I kind of envy you that you believe this. I've been practicing pediatrics long enough to know that it's not the case, to put it mildly.

The underlying assumption in this discussion is that CPS is this sinister, mustachio-twirling entity that exists only to remove people's children. That's actually a minority of what it does. Many calls to CPS aren't even accepted, and the majority of the ones that are may be followed by things like parenting instruction (education! information!) goal setting, referrals for drug rehab, and making sure children get medical and dental appointments. In general the workers don't want to remove the kids from family except as a last ditch option.

but it's fun for people to get their paranoia on.

kuwisdelu said:

But wait. Aren't abuse and neglect exactly the kind of problems we're talking about and why CPS exists?

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Yes.

Education and information wouldn't have helped in that case. Tell me how it would have helped. What would have helped was some kind of police actually doing their job and intervening. Whether that's the actual police arresting the abuser or CPS removing the child or both, whatever works.

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Did the daughter report her mother or not?

@Terza, no I don't think CPS is sinister. I don't think the government is trying to "take kids away from their parents cuz they are teh evil." But I do think bounds get overstepped. Often. The OP is one case. I've seen many others, just in my wee little town.

I've also heard how difficult it is for parents to get their kids back (especially in drug use situations). Drug use does not equal child abuse or neglect.

For example: I knew this one lady, addicted to heroin, who hand egged and breaded fresh chicken breasts and other such elaborate (to me) meals for her kids' dinner. There were no frozen chicken nuggets in her house. (She was quite poor as well, but she use her little bit of money -- and food stamps -- to buy the healthiest foods for her kids that she could.) I remember watching her bread the chicken and thinking... this is not how anyone (myself included, a few years prior) would picture a 20-year heroin addict.


When I say abuse and neglect worthy of removal, I mean physical abuse, sexual abuse, or neglect of the variety that your kids aren't getting fed, going to school, and getting life-saving medical treatment. (I don't think that's ALL it takes to be a good parent, but I don't think we can intervene beyond this. And there should be facts & evidence as well.)

And by information and education, I didn't mean, "If you don't want your kid removed, you have to go to this class or do this thing." I meant making it available. Sending out the word to everyone so that they can voluntarily access it.

Chrissy said:

Did the daughter report her mother or not?

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No, never her mother. She reported her father once.

You don't seem to understand how child abuse works. No amount of education or information can break through as long as the adult wields such total power.

Do you not think I encouraged, begged, and pleaded with her to do so?

She thought it was pointless. And she wasn't stupid. She was brainwashed.

And by information and education, I didn't mean, "If you don't want your kid removed, you have to go to this class or do this thing." I meant making it available. Sending out the word to everyone so that they can voluntarily access it.

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Can you qualify that a bit more? How is information and education not already out there in a way that people can voluntarily access it?

Heh, yeah well, I was beaten almost every day as a kid to get the devil out of me (only welts though, no bruises) and I never once thought of telling on my parents. So yeah, I do understand. I suppose you could call me brainwashed, but I would say ignorant. It had actually never even occurred to me that I was being treated wrongly. That was all I knew, until I got older and started talking to other people. When I was 16 and had had enough, and stood up for myself. (It worked in my case.)

Chrissy said:

Heh, yeah well, I was beaten almost every day as a kid to get the devil out of me (only welts though, no bruises) and I never once thought of telling on my parents. So yeah, I do understand. I suppose you could call me brainwashed, but I would say ignorant. It had actually never even occurred to me that I was being treated wrongly. That was all I knew, until I got older and started talking to other people. When I was 16 and had had enough, and stood up for myself. (It worked in my case.)

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It can work. It doesn't always work.

ColoradoGuy said:

This has also been my experience. Outrage at CPS is a chance for the all government is evil folks to ride their favorite hobby horse.

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No, not all the government is evil folks. I do think the government at all levels overreaches too often, but I basically agree with TerzaRima and rugcat when it comes to CPS. Just one of the reasons I'd make a lousy Libertarian.

kuwisdelu said:

Can you qualify that a bit more? How is information and education not already out there in a way that people can voluntarily access it?

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Sorry I missed this the first time around.

I think the whole "we are here to help" works better than "if we catch you, you're fucked."

And yes, some programs are available and known about and freely accessible, depending on where you live. In some places they're non-existent, not well-known, or not accessible unless you meet some criteria that really shouldn't be relevant if we really are just trying to help people. Like income restrictrions, for example.

In my area, there are a lot of free parenting and other support classes put on by the school board. A recorded message is sent to every parent's phone on record (i.e., with an enrolled child) informing us of upcoming classes, events, etc. This is a fairly recent thing (maybe 4-5 years going). More of this would be awesome.