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Pandamoon Publishing
- Thread starter tbrosz
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Old Hack, you're much more experienced than me. I'm still struggling to be a Young Hack. But hundreds or thousands of sales in the first week seems extraordinary for most unknown writers being published by a tiny press. In my experience with small publishers, the most I saw was five hundred sales over a three year period. Some of my friends tell me they'd kill to get 500 sales of any of their novels.
This afternoon, I happened to read Lawrence Block mentioning that paperback publishers would pick up a writer if they thought his/her mystery would move 3,000-6,000 copies; it was in his The Crime of our Lives. That was 'back in the day' (and he failed to be really clear about when that day was) but is it reasonable to think this small publisher could copy those results in a week or two?
Or am I misunderstanding here?
I don't think you're necessarily misunderstanding here, but read my post in context:
Just nine sales in the first week is dreadful. That first week should be when all the promotional efforts come together to give a big hit of sales. That first week is usually when the biggest chunk of sales come, and is an indicator of sales to come. If you make just nine sales in that week, and ten in six months, then your publisher is not doing its job and is not publishing you well.
Moving on to your point, I can see how sales in the thousands might be out of reach for many of us: but a few hundred? It's the minimum we should hope for.
If you're with a small press that is struggling to sell 500 copies in the first year of publication, I suspect you'd be financially better off self-publishing: you might not sell as many books but you'd earn more per copy, which can be a significant help to many writers, and you'd be able to be more flexible in how your book is published.
If you want a trade deal, however, I understand the urge to see your work published: but I feel that when we spend so very many hours writing it, the least it deserves is a publisher which is going to bring it to the market with thought and care, and which is going to promote it effectively and ensure it makes a good number of sales.
I would hope they were actively involved in #PitDark considering I hosted the event.
Also, just FYI for those who got a PitDark "like" -- I'm pretty sure Pandamoon is closing for submissions on 5/30, so get your submission in before then if you're interested.
This is so sad to hear. If a publisher can't move more than 500 copies of your book in three years, they are not doing you any favors. That means for 60% of the cut they managed to sell two books a day. You could literally stand on a street corner and do the same thing for 100% of the cut. Treat your work with the respect it deserves.
Does Pandamoon produce results? On the plus side, their books do have handfuls of reviews on Amazon. A lot of small presses can't manage to do that. Unfortunately, the covers are not inspiring at all. There are also no staff bios so authors don't know if their books are in capable hands or not. They publish in multiple genres which is a turn off. Publishers should focus on one genre and do that well. You don't see Tor trying to publish space operas, cozy mysteries and motorcycle gang romances.
ETA: They're selling a copy every other day, not two per day. Maths. I know them. Really.
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I got a full manuscript request in early December. I heard from Zara Kramer that she'd be reading it in late April. For those who have had full requests from Pandamoon, how long did it take to hear back? It's been 9 weeks since I heard from them. Is it reasonable to get in touch?
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This is really disturbing.
To put these figures in perspective through comparison... I selfpubbed my first book through KDP. The book went live on May 15th (just this last month). The book fits in a very small niche (gay fantasy romance) and wasn't written entirely to market. Despite flubbing my launch (only had a small number of ARCs; didn't get the ARC readers to the live page fast enough; one ARC reader 1-starred the work a couple days after release; re-doing the Amazon categories and keywords and blurb a day in; didn't set up an Author Central page; didn't have a functional author website) and spending less than $100.00 on promotion, I've sold 2,897 copies and, via KU, have had an additional ~83k pages read so far. I botched this release! I had very little idea of what I was doing and made serious mistakes! It's the very first book I've ever self-published!
If a small press can't move 500 digital copies of a given book in a year, they should really take a hard look at their strategy and think about whether they are doing the right thing by their authors, their readers, and their employees.
This, FFS THIS. If your 'publisher' is moving under 500 copies in three years, if most of their books are above 1,000,000 sales rank on Amazon, and if they have chronic cover and editing issues...they are not a good publisher. They might be fun, they might be surrogate family, but unless you are writing as a hobby, this is seriously bad news. Even if you are writing as a hobby? There's a very good chance that a publisher who fucks up on the aforementioned stuff will also find themselves in bankruptcy, or running back to South Africa just ahead of the authorities.
I don't care how cute a logo is, or how well an editor's #mswl might mirror my work. I don't care about all the new writers in their honeymoon phase. If I smell hints of trouble, I never even query a publisher. I might actually withdraw a submission, if my information changes for the worse after I query. If I'm already with a publisher and I sense they might be on the edge...I find a life raft and start paddling. I look at publishing the same way I look at lottery tickets and poker: I never wager anything I can't afford to lose outright.
I don't care how cute a logo is, or how well an editor's #mswl might mirror my work. I don't care about all the new writers in their honeymoon phase. If I smell hints of trouble, I never even query a publisher. I might actually withdraw a submission, if my information changes for the worse after I query. If I'm already with a publisher and I sense they might be on the edge...I find a life raft and start paddling. I look at publishing the same way I look at lottery tickets and poker: I never wager anything I can't afford to lose outright.
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I just received a like from them during pitdark as well. I came straight here to see if I could find anything recent on them.
I also received a like from them on the October 20th PitDark twitter pitch, and came here to see what others have said. From this thread started in 2013, I'm guessing they're only about three years old. And perusing their website, they seem like other new, small publishers following a model that doesn't seem to be working past the fifth year.
PandaNinja, if you send work to them, I'm interested to know how it works out for you. Best of luck!
PandaNinja, if you send work to them, I'm interested to know how it works out for you. Best of luck!
Pandamoon is one of those companies that I *wish* would turn out legitimate and strong. I gotta admit, the logo is cute. The editors' manuscript wishlist posts are really tempting, and they've even liked some of my twitter pitches. But then I look at what happened to Jolly Fish, a press that had none of the issues we've noted about Pandamoon. Very scary.
I signed with Pandamoon about a year and a half ago. We've released one book since then, On the Bricks. Yes, you are expected to do some marketing. But every publisher expects that now unless you're a very well-established author. I've put up no money of my own except to get some bookmarks printed. A friend of mine who is agented and signed with a small imprint of one of the big six had to do the same thing.
Pandamoon provides you with a publicist and marketing training. It's a collaborative environment, and I can contact them directly at any time with questions or concerns. I understand why people are skeptical. There are a lot of cons in every business. But Pandamoon is not one of them.
Pandamoon provides you with a publicist and marketing training. It's a collaborative environment, and I can contact them directly at any time with questions or concerns. I understand why people are skeptical. There are a lot of cons in every business. But Pandamoon is not one of them.
No, they really don't.
If you do, it's a bonus. But it is not required. If it were, how would you explain the success of authors who died before being published?
I want sales numbers, doesn't have to be exact. Because their sales ranks numbers on Amazon (admittedly an opaque metric) don't look encouraging. And that's the least worry I have about Pandamoon.
Stumbled on this thread and read the most recent posts with interest. Any updates since 2016/18? There were a lot of concerns back when the thread was active. Six to eight years later, the press still exists - maybe that's a good sign? I've seen them around in various Twitter pitch events over the years, but never submitted.
They have recently reopened to submissions so I thought it was worth reactivating this thread as they might be appearing on various lists or be active on social media. Also, at the time this thread was active, the company had only been around 3-5 years. It has now existed for over a decade so there must be more information garnered since, more authors signed, etc. I do think I came across them a few months ago too and saw they were closed or taking a break from submissions. (I also have a vague memory of reading this is something they do regularly/semi-regularly, but I might be thinking of another publisher. Someone here might know?)
Having a look at their website (I haven't yet looked at Amazon sales ranks, of which there were lots of complaints previously in the thread), here's some more notes:
I think their book covers need more work. Some of them are okay, but most of them are imo not great. I like some of their oval-shaped graphics they have on their website for each genre more than I like the book covers - maybe whoever designed those could have a go at the books themselves? (Edit - only some of these are graphics, the rest are photographs. I do like the ones on Cozy Mystery, Thriller/Suspense, Dystopian, etc. But maybe these were licensed from somewhere else.) I haven't yet looked at their sales figures but the covers alone would personally put me off submitting at this time.
I agree with an earlier poster that their logo is cute.
They say they publish non-fiction, but it's mostly fiction. I see only two non-fiction titles listed on their website, one of which is marked as "sold out" (it's also marked as "not yet available" and "cover in progress" so maybe it's being reprinted?).
Someone also had concerns about the amount of genres they publish. Here's what they're looking for, primarily three genres (but lots of sub-genres) and non-fiction as well, plus the list of things they don't publish:
A couple of more things I saw on their About us/FAQ page. I'm only pasting the bits about authors, as I think it's relevant, and I'm a little concerned about the "author training" one. For context, these snippets come from a a four-part philosophy, including treating the customer as part of the community, so I'll link to the page here if anyone wants to read it all: https://pandamoonpub.com/pages/about-us
Overall, I'm reactivating this thread as they're open again to submissions since last month. I have mixed feelings on them but I don't want to be too critical. They seem like nice people and the founder has quite a touching message about her husband's recovery on their About page. They seem like they foster a nice community, but I would have some business concerns (with their covers, training authors as marketers). Still, they've been around for well over a decade, so I guess they're doing something right!
They have recently reopened to submissions so I thought it was worth reactivating this thread as they might be appearing on various lists or be active on social media. Also, at the time this thread was active, the company had only been around 3-5 years. It has now existed for over a decade so there must be more information garnered since, more authors signed, etc. I do think I came across them a few months ago too and saw they were closed or taking a break from submissions. (I also have a vague memory of reading this is something they do regularly/semi-regularly, but I might be thinking of another publisher. Someone here might know?)
Having a look at their website (I haven't yet looked at Amazon sales ranks, of which there were lots of complaints previously in the thread), here's some more notes:
I think their book covers need more work. Some of them are okay, but most of them are imo not great. I like some of their oval-shaped graphics they have on their website for each genre more than I like the book covers - maybe whoever designed those could have a go at the books themselves? (Edit - only some of these are graphics, the rest are photographs. I do like the ones on Cozy Mystery, Thriller/Suspense, Dystopian, etc. But maybe these were licensed from somewhere else.) I haven't yet looked at their sales figures but the covers alone would personally put me off submitting at this time.
I agree with an earlier poster that their logo is cute.
They say they publish non-fiction, but it's mostly fiction. I see only two non-fiction titles listed on their website, one of which is marked as "sold out" (it's also marked as "not yet available" and "cover in progress" so maybe it's being reprinted?).
Someone also had concerns about the amount of genres they publish. Here's what they're looking for, primarily three genres (but lots of sub-genres) and non-fiction as well, plus the list of things they don't publish:
A couple of more things I saw on their About us/FAQ page. I'm only pasting the bits about authors, as I think it's relevant, and I'm a little concerned about the "author training" one. For context, these snippets come from a a four-part philosophy, including treating the customer as part of the community, so I'll link to the page here if anyone wants to read it all: https://pandamoonpub.com/pages/about-us
Overall, I'm reactivating this thread as they're open again to submissions since last month. I have mixed feelings on them but I don't want to be too critical. They seem like nice people and the founder has quite a touching message about her husband's recovery on their About page. They seem like they foster a nice community, but I would have some business concerns (with their covers, training authors as marketers). Still, they've been around for well over a decade, so I guess they're doing something right!
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