creepy romance?

Alright, I think you guys have listed almost everything that bothers me.

Hmm... I suppose I can come up with one or two:

When something horrible a female does is excused because she's female, but if she were a guy, everyone would be screaming "abuser."

When the LI has a girlfriend/boyfriend yet continues to flirt with the MC and there are no consequences for this whatsoever—in fact, it's a good thing because the girlfriend/boyfriend is a straw!asshole. I never forgave McDreamy for that.

maybegenius said:

Negging. Negging is creepy. If you're unfamiliar with the term, it's when someone hits on you/flirts with you/speaks to you in a way that tries to "knock you down a peg" by using an insult wrapped in what could be considered a compliment. For instance: "You're pretty. I bet more people would like you if you weren't such a know-it-all." or "You know, a lot of people want to date me. Lucky for you, I'm not interested in them. [So doesn't that make you feel special and imply you should be grateful when I want to date you?]"

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#1 pet peeve, right there, although I didn't know it was called that. I'm okay with friendly ribbing. I also know what friendly ribbing sounds like, and it doesn't sound like that (friendly ribbing also implies banter, ie "You're pretty. I bet more people would like you if you weren't such a know-it-all" met with a response like, "Thanks, but I'd feel more complimented if single-celled organisms didn't look like Mensa material next to you," not the LI hurling insults while the MC meekly accepts them). That's thinly-disgused (or flat-out undisguised) verbal abuse.

I agree with the other things, too: possessiveness, LI dictating what the MC does and wears, spying, MC developing an LI-centered identity, romanticizing violence and coercion. I'm also not fond of this subtle but icky variant: pining LI lingers soulfully and passive-aggresively in the background as the MC blows through a succession of Wrong Choices, written in a way that the readers are clearly expected to think she's evil and clueless for Not Noticing How Much He Loves Her.

Although I also echo what EMaree said. If the relationship is intentionally dysfunctional and that's acknowledged in-universe, that's different than the same relationship being portrayed as ideal and romantic. I've even written that kind myself (one of which is one of my favorite stories; featured an evil overlord who was a needy, broken mess of a person and a subordinate who was desperately in love with him. Evil Overlord didn't reciprocate, but due to needy brokenness, kept the subordinate around and encouraged the crush because he wanted someone, anyone to love him, even if he couldn't make himself feel the same way. Meanwhile, the far-from-clueless Subordinate knew this and kept the relationship going from a mix of selfishness and pity. Do not try this at home, kids).

ETA: Anyone hear the Weird Al song, "Do I Creep You Out?" It's now running through my head, lol.

I thought of a few more.

1. When the LI gets angry for the MC for something that is beyond the MC's control. For example, a third party starts flirting with the MC, not knowing that they are in a relationship. Even without the MC flirting back the LI freaks out and gets pissed at the MC for it.

2. When the LI thinks that the MC shouldn't have friends of the opposite sex. Where even talking to someone of the opposite sex (who is not related to the MC) makes the LI angry.

Everything in this thread, times a billion.

My personal pet peeve is infantilization of the female MC. It overlaps with a lot of the behaviors described here--controlling the FMC's life, telling her he knows what's "best" for her, and basically acting like a possessive, overprotective father. The FMC then acts helpless and childlike, which is totally creepy and sexist and gross.

I'm okay with this IF the abusive relationship is intentional and IF it's portrayed as such (even if the abused person is in denial), but it's often portrayed as the opposite--somehow, treating the FMC like a child and running her life is supposed to be romantic. Puke.

Moose said:

I thought of a few more.

1. When the LI gets angry for the MC for something that is beyond the MC's control. For example, a third party starts flirting with the MC, not knowing that they are in a relationship. Even without the MC flirting back the LI freaks out and gets pissed at the MC for it.

2. When the LI thinks that the MC shouldn't have friends of the opposite sex. Where even talking to someone of the opposite sex (who is not related to the MC) makes the LI angry.

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Yessss! Unless the MC proceeds to dump the LI's ass over shit like this. Then I approve. >.>

Keyaroscuro said:

Also, thought of another creeper trope I read recently. It's the type where the LI (usually male) is so much older than the girl (like 100 years plus) that almost every excuse for his jerk behavior is because he's older and more experienced and knows better, so he gets away doing whatever he wants and practically running the girl's life and decisions. And she has to ask him permission to do things or sexually manipulate him to agree with her decision. It gets old. Really fast.

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It always struck me as odd that it's OK for the centuries old vampire to date the teenage girl but 'creepy' if a forty year guy shows interest in a teenager. Somehow it's all right because the vampire looks young .

It also totally destroys the vampire character for me. I can't respect anyone who's lived for so long, has such great life experience, yet 'falls in love' with a teenager. That's just wrong. We have a word for that in real life: pedophilia.

thebloodfiend said:

Alright, I think you guys have listed almost everything that bothers me.

Hmm... I suppose I can come up with one or two:

When something horrible a female does is excused because she's female, but if she were a guy, everyone would be screaming "abuser."


When the LI has a girlfriend/boyfriend yet continues to flirt with the MC and there are no consequences for this whatsoever—in fact, it's a good thing because the girlfriend/boyfriend is a straw!asshole. I never forgave McDreamy for that.

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Ugh, yes. TV shows are particularly bad at this. I've seen guys getting beaten up by their tiny wives played for comedy. Like, I don't care how small she is, getting slapped across the face, hit with frying pans or pushed into things can still freaking hurt.

Also, since this thread is very dude-centric (though unfortunately they are the major offenders in YA at the moment), I'll add some girly ones.

The girl who acts like she has a right to be with a specific boy. This is an especially funny one because it's just as common in "heroes" (well, MCs) and villains. You have the villain saying, "hands off, bitch, that's MY BOYFRIEND" and, perhaps even worse (because, you know, the girlfriend does have a right to be somewhat pissed), the MC who becomes convinced that she and Specific Boy belong together. Common traits- assuming it's what the guy wants and demonising his current girlfriend (three cheers for the "slutty cheerleader"!)

It just presents the guys as so stupid and, to me, is the male equivalent of the LI who disregards the FMC's wishes. They just assume that, because this guy is so perfect, he can't possibly want her, he must want me instead.

I especially hate the double standard of the girl who despises her love rival and refers to her as the slut, the whore, the one the guys only want because she shows herself off or everybody knows she's easy. Not only is this a terrible, slut-shaming thing to do, but if you really hate that kind of girl so much, how can your LI be so special if he's into that? Oh, right, because boys are blind idiots who are led around exclusively by their dicks, and it's up to you to show him what real love is. If you can be so sanctimonious and demeaning of a girl he seems to like, you don't deserve him.

Breaking a couple up so you can be together. No way does that work.

The guy with the girlfriend who is perpetually mean to the MC by the guy is too stupid to see it.

The guy who slept around with all the girls before he met you, and now he only wants you. There's nothing inherently wrong with wanting to slow down on promiscuity for a longer relationship, but I think it too often creates a dichotomy where the female characters who did sleep with the LI are considered to be stupid, whores or at least "not good enough" where the MC is considered great because she's pure.

Okay, this last one might be a little contentious but - stringing two guys along. The phrasing is frequently associated with the kind of guys who believe the "friend zone" is a thing and Nice Guy syndrome. But I must admit that when a girl is constantly swinging between two very attractive guys (who mostly seem content to just wait around for her to make up her goddamn mind), I just roll my eyes. Especially if she changes her mind several times (if you're writing a series).

The_Ink_Goddess said:

(awesome words about females, double standards, slut-shaming, etc.)

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I agree completely.

If something is considered bad for one gender, it should be bad for the other gender as well. However, girls can get away with so much more simply because they are girls. Additionally, people just sort of expect girls to be emotionally unhinged and stuff, which is bullshit. That view just lets these abusive women get away with way more than a man would.

For example: creepy, obsessive, stalkerish behavior is dismissed as just being normal, female jealousy. Stop right there! That isn’t just jealousy! That’s like full-on crazy that you would be terrified of if the person doing it was a guy!
Unless the guy is a sparkly vampire. Because then it’s not terrifying at all, and it is seen as extremely romantic behavior that makes girls drop their panties.

There’s also emotional manipulation, and (like you mentioned) the physical abuse. It’s terrible.

I hate the slut-shaming as well. A girl who is confident in herself and her sexuality (who happens to be the so-called rival in love) = automatic slut and terrible whore. Why? Is it so wrong to have a healthy sex life?

As for this “friendzone” and “Nice Guy” stuff. That’s just... ugh. Yes, go ahead and be a “friend” simply for the sake of hoping to get into a girl’s pants. Then you can complain when your Friendship Loyalty Points don’t automatically get traded in for a relationship. You just go ahead and do that, dude.
That’s not how relationships work!

Haha I was totally coming back to cite "friendzoning" and Nice Guy/Nice Girl (TM). I was reading some commentary on it that really hit home for me: besides the fact that no one owes you sex or a relationship EVER, how shitty is this Nice Guy thing, really? Essentially by saying you've been "friendzoned," you're implying that your relationship isn't real or valuable unless you get to have sex with the object of your "affection." She trusts you, relies on you, calls on you, and you're clearly very important to her, but none of that matters because you never wanted friendship. You wanted to get laid.

Can be theoretically flipped for females, but in female/male relationships, the power dynamic is completely different. Girls who fall into the same pattern (pining, wanting to be in a relationship, declaring love, etc.) are considered pathetic and usually dismissed. Guys who do it actually have the social clout behind them to receive support and pressure the girl to "give him a chance" and then drag her over the coals for being a TOTAL BITCH if she dares decline. Girls don't exactly have that same social system in place to back them if they get "jilted."

However, that's talking from a purely hetero standpoint. These rules could probably be shaken up a lot in non-hetero relationships.

Dorky said:

I hate the slut-shaming as well.

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This one actually makes sense to me in the context of a 1st person POV rival. Girls are pretty harsh on each other. Who doesn't secretly call people they don't like unpleasant names?

However, when EVERYONE in the story takes the same position on "the other" girl, it's a different story. That's when it becomes epidemic of a bigger issue, and it would actually be a great change to have a POV character who calls the other girl horrible things actually called on it by a friend.

Liosse de Velishaf said:

Any sort of PUA tactic in general creeps me out. Especially if you joined the community to learn it.

Also, gaslighting is scary as hell.

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i.e.: the Edward Saves Bella from the Death Van Scene. "How'd you get over there so fast?" "I was standing right next to you, Bella." "No, you were next to your car." "I think you hit your head pretty hard."

*shudders*

I didn't realize there was a word for that. We have so many different subcategories of "jerkass" these days. Why's it called "gaslighting," I wonder?

keepcalmandwriteon said:

Incest definitley would creep me out. I was thinking the other day how there's really no unique love story lines anymore. And that the only one that hasn't been done is incest. Well, lo and behold I found a book where the LI's are brother and sister.

It sounds like a good book, but I don't think I could get past the creep factor to read it. That'd be too disturbing, and that's saying something because I love disturbing books.

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As an addendum to this, because incest seems to be a Thing nowadays which I don't get at all, but more often than not I'm seeing Faux-Cest. Where the brother and sister turn out to be adopted or in some other way not related by blood. That annoys me almost more than incest stories on the whole--it's such a cop-out. "See, it's okay, they're not really related!" I feel like publishers are probably pushing for that, but yeah--still a cop-out. I'm not really creeped out by that, by the way--just aggravated.

(Is there a mindset that growing up together breeds intimacy or something? It breeds Stay Out Of My Room and Stop Pulling The Heads Off My Dolls and No That's MY Pink Floyd Album, Not Yours, GIVE IT BACK. At least that's what happened for me. I don't hate my brother, but I am glad he lives several states away from me.)

@ Rhoda - it's called Gaslighting because of an old movie where a husband tries to drive his wife mad so he can have her money. It's from the '30s, I think, so not a new concept (without even getting into the madwoman in the attic of Victorian fiction).

The_Ink_Goddess said:

@ Rhoda - it's called Gaslighting because of an old movie where a husband tries to drive his wife mad so he can have her money. It's from the '30s, I think, so not a new concept (without even getting into the madwoman in the attic of Victorian fiction).

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So...the movie's called Gaslighting? He uses gas/vapor to drive her mad? Still not getting it.

Rhoda Nightingale said:

So...the movie's called Gaslighting? He uses gas/vapor to drive her mad? Still not getting it.

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The gas light is on? Or off? That's what I'm guessing.

The movie is called Gas Light, though.

ETA: Looked it up. Apparently the husband is fucking with the wife, claiming that the gaslights aren't dimming when they really are, to slowly drive her insane.

Have you read the The Twits? Fantastic kidlit novel. Gaslighting is all the couple does.

thebloodfiend said:

The gas light is on? Or off? That's what I'm guessing.

The movie is called Gas Light, though.

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OH, and he switches it on and off to confuse her--is that what happens? Okay. Thanks! (Sorry, that was just bugging me.)

ETA: And I have read The Twits! That's a great little book. And again, they're rightly portrayed as damaged, unhealthy, horrible people.

Rhoda Nightingale said:

OH, and he switches it on and off to confuse her--is that what happens? Okay. Thanks! (Sorry, that was just bugging me.)

ETA: And I have read The Twits! That's a great little book. And again, they're rightly portrayed as damaged, unhealthy, horrible people.

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He uses the lights, as well as other mentally abusive tactics to make her question her sanity. It's a great, atmospheric movie with Charles Boyer and Ingrid Bergman.

missesdash said:

Twincest would freak me out but I'm thinking we won't see that in YA. Like ever.

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I have a twincest idea brewing in my mind these days. May or may not get written. It's a really interesting (not to mention disturbing) thing.

Can we maybe not do the twincest thing? I mean, in fanfic or whatever, it's fine.

But seriously, there's too much of that in the media already, and it's really frustrating.


Personal disclosure time: I am a twin. My twin and I do not get along. He is an evil twin. He treats people like shit and is abusive. Not sexually, just verbally and physically. I hate, hate, hate my twin most of the time, and I dread going home on breaks because I have to be in the same house with him.

But people, usually girls(I assume since my twin and I are identical males?), think it's funny or sexy to make twincest jokes to me. More frequently than I think is reasonable. And sometimes, they make comments about twincest where I do not think they are joking.



Now, not everyone who has a twin has the same issue with them. it probably follows about the same lines as normal siblings. I know many twins, and a majority of them seem to get along pretty well.

I assume most of these twincest stories involve straight fraternal twins of opposite genders, so I suppose at least it is objectively possibly for them to be physically attracted to each other. But I have never met any twins who found the idea of twincest attractive, or amusing. Perhaps not offensive exactly, but silly or maybe ridiculous.


The majority of incest happens in homes that are abusive, awful places to be. It is not sexy. It is not healthy. It is not cute or amusing. It also happens mostly between an older, more authoritative figure, and a younger, weaker figure.

And even if the portrayal followed the general pattern of real-life incest, the whole twincest deal is so often over-sexualized as a fantasy, especially in fanfic. Normal portrayal of twins in fiction is bad enough, do we really need to throw this kind of thing into the mix, as well?

I don't think I ever hated a "LI" as much as I did Patch. And even though I did like the Twilight stories (for the most part) I did hate the whole protection vs. control thing, which is why I preferred Jacob over Edward. When he takes the piece from her car out so she can't leave that pissed me off. BUT DON'T MAKE THIS A TWILIGHT CONVO PLEEEEEEEEEASE.

RE: gaslighting, yep, everybody else pretty much covered it. Although the idea of the terminology has less with DRIVING someone insane as it does making them THINK they're unreasonable/overthinking things with the goal of discrediting them or making them question themselves, which eventually gets them to shut up... which is the ultimate goal. It's a silencing tool.

AKA, when a woman responds complete rationally and even-handedly to an argument, and some guy tells her to "calm down" and "stop getting so emotional." You do that enough, and eventually a woman starts to shut up because she wonders if every time she opens her mouth, she's actually acting irrationally.

Other examples include "you're taking this too seriously; it's a joke," "stop overreacting," and "you're obviously too close to this issue to think about it rationally." It's particularly insidious when the perpetrator does something they KNOW FOR A FACT will be upsetting to you, and then shuts you down when you react EXACTLY as they knew you were going to.

Here's an essay on the subject written by a man, who openly discusses the multitude of ways in which men do this to women and the effect it has on women.

Aaaand I'll stop there before I get too far off tangent!

Windcutter said:

To add to the faux 'cest discussion. I have an old wip (which I'm working on from time to time) where MC and LI are new stepsiblings. Her father marries his mother, and that's how they meet in the first chapter. Some early readers were grossed out by their romantic tension, saying it felt almost like incest. Even though they haven't even seen each other before.

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I actually know someone like this in real life. I didn't find it all that creepy, but people in that friend group gave him no end of shit about it.

nightowling said:

He uses the lights, as well as other mentally abusive tactics to make her question her sanity. It's a great, atmospheric movie with Charles Boyer and Ingrid Bergman.

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I haven't seen that version (from 1944) but I have seen the previous British film from 1940 - stars Anton Walbrook and Diana Wynyard and that's pretty good IIRC.

eyeblink said:

I haven't seen that version (from 1944) but I have seen the previous British film from 1940 - stars Anton Walbrook and Diana Wynyard and that's pretty good IIRC.

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I forgot there was an earlier one, I need to see it. Thanks for the reminder!

maybegenius said:

RE: gaslighting, yep, everybody else pretty much covered it. Although the idea of the terminology has less with DRIVING someone insane as it does making them THINK they're unreasonable/overthinking things with the goal of discrediting them or making them question themselves, which eventually gets them to shut up... which is the ultimate goal. It's a silencing tool.

AKA, when a woman responds complete rationally and even-handedly to an argument, and some guy tells her to "calm down" and "stop getting so emotional." You do that enough, and eventually a woman starts to shut up because she wonders if every time she opens her mouth, she's actually acting irrationally.

Other examples include "you're taking this too seriously; it's a joke," "stop overreacting," and "you're obviously too close to this issue to think about it rationally." It's particularly insidious when the perpetrator does something they KNOW FOR A FACT will be upsetting to you, and then shuts you down when you react EXACTLY as they knew you were going to.

Here's an essay on the subject written by a man, who openly discusses the multitude of ways in which men do this to women and the effect it has on women.

Aaaand I'll stop there before I get too far off tangent!

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Yep, I HATE all of this. Also someone invalidating your feelings by telling you that you're too sensitive.

what she said

Keyaroscuro said:

Kind of what KateSmash said, but what's super creepy to me is when a character becomes so obsessed with the love interest that she (it could be a he, but for sake of avoiding the he/she bit, let's grab a gender and stick with it) starts basing her entire life and personality off of him and what she views as the ideal girlfriend for him. Sort of like a fangirl blinded by her obsession to the point that she loses herself completely.

The extra creep factor is when the love interest acts as an enabler and encourages the behavior.

And like others have said, some of the creepiest ones are when a main character is trapped in a relationship that is damaging/controlling/abusive, and either she or the people around her don't take it seriously and instead act like it's cute and that it's not a big deal because it's TWOO WUV (saw a license plate like that the other day minus the space). Gets my creeper sense tingling.

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I agree with everything she said. Anytime the person just gives up who they are and can't live without the other person it's a sad thing. It's a constant thing in books, music and movies. I hope more and more strong role models become the popular thing.