Query Advice: What would you do?

GiddyUpGo · Feb 14, 2013

I have been working on my query over in Query Hell for the past couple of days and I'm floundering. I was hoping to get some "what would you do" kind of advice about a POV problem. My story is a multiple POV. The first MC (Mia) commits an awful crime and gets away with it for 12 years. The other two MCs (Angela and Sarah) are the people who are affected by her crime. But because the story begins with the crime, and therefore with Mia's point of view, that's one I used for the query (also because I just thought it was hookier).

Since posting the query though I'm getting a lot of negative feedback about Mia, who is admittedly Very Bad Person without a lot of redeeming qualities. Critters want to know why they should feel any sympathy for her. My answer is that they shouldn't, because she's a Very Bad Person.

But a lot of critters seem to think the query should be written from a point of view that they can sympathize with. I do make it clear at the end of the query that this story is told from three POVs, but I worry that if the agents reading the query feel the same way as these critters do, they won't even make it that far.

But because Mia's POV is also the one used in the first 18 pages of the story, it's the one agents are going to see when they read the sample pages. So wouldn't it be confusing to query the story from a completely different point of view?

So what would you do:

A) Change the query so the POV is more sympathetic, and not worry about matching the POV in the query to the one in the first few pages

B) Keep the query from Mia's perspective and try to make her more sympathetic

OR

C) Make it more obvious early on that there will be multiple POVs in the story.

And if your answer is C, how would you do that without actually including all three POVs in the query, which I've always been told is a no-no?

Thanks in advance! My head is spinning trying to figure this all out.

Dancre · Feb 14, 2013

I would go with Mia's pov. Just remember, Mia is the good guy. Who's the bad guy? What will happen if the Bad guy wins and Mia loses? Answer those questions and you'll make it. You don't have to answer every question and you just want to make the reader want to read more. Not all Main characters have to be sympathetic. Mine isn't. Folks hated mine when they first read about him, but warmed up to him later. I'm sure we'll warm up to Mia later in the book.

amschilling · Feb 14, 2013

If the query states there are 3 POVs, then no, I wouldn't think the agents would be confused if an alt POV is in the sample pages. They know to expect more than one narrator.

So not B (not true to the character) but A or C. For C I'm not sure if you mean change the book or the query, but if the story works I wouldn't recomend changing it. And if you mean the query, please, for the love of God do NOT write it from multiple POVs. If you think QLH is tough, you haven't seen anything until you post a multiple POV query. Queryshark agrees--do not do.

So by process of elimination? A. Pick one of the other characters and tell it through their eyes.

EDIT: Ahhh. Dancre seems to have read it, which I haven't. And makes a good point about "The Cat Who Walked Through Walls." If your unsympathetic person who does bad things is the hero/anti-hero/protag, then it might be worth the pain to stick with her. It'll just require a lot of finesse in the query to show agents that she can work as the lead.

CatchingADragon · Feb 14, 2013

I think evil characters are always tricky, and no matter what you do, they are just less likely to work for certain readers.

I don't think the point is to make her sympathetic as an overall character, but to make her sympathetic through her situation. What is she dealing with that we can all relate to? Is there a character even more evil than her?

Or, perhaps, let her be the most evil character, but make sure her choices are extremely interesting. What lengths is she willing to go to to keep her secret? Evil characters can be extremely fascinating because they'll do things readers themselves wouldn't dare, but we still want to wonder just what would happen if we did. If you can make her fascinating, even if despicable, you should attract some readers. Some readers may still not go for it, but there'd be an audience for it somewhere.

buz · Feb 14, 2013

I felt some sympathy for Mia. She's obviously twisted, but she wants this guy more than anything in the universe and is willing to do a horrible thing to get him--then he dumps her. That's painful and draws some sympathy from me.

I think that's what some critters were talking about: making that moment really come through as hugely devastating...which I agree with.

That crushing blow, combined with restructuring her whole life around her daughter and herself alone, is what makes her sympathetic to me. So I'd really make that bit pop.

I still think she's, yanno, twisted, but I can feel for twisted people.

quicklime · Feb 14, 2013

1. it might be a bit odd (it is; I'm being polite) to come here to ask about the advice you're getting from the folks who HAVE seen the query. there's a couple problems with this beyond the whole breach of etiquette of coming here to ask about the advice you're being given there, mainly that a) these folks may well have not have seen your query, b) the folks in QLH are the ones with the experience and desire; it isn't a spot we're sent for unruly behavior, we WANT to be there, and c) again, you're taking the advice of the folks who have seen the pitch and now asking folks who have not "are these guys full of it?"

2. you write the query based on the person who is the MC...it sounds as though the book is mostly Mia's book....so the query should ideally be her

3. There will be disagreements, and occasionally even bad advice, in QLH...same as anywhere else. You learn to weed.

4. as far as "starting" that's somewhat irrelevant...it is very common in thrillers, for example, to start with the killer....it is a bit tired, im ny eyes, but it gets the ball rolling..."Karl peered through the bushes at the naked coeds tanning". Nobody writes the query about Creepy Karl though. So if I'm wrong about Mia being the MC, you write from the MC.

5. I BELIEVE most of what you have seen is Mia is unlikeable and not carrying a query. This isn't the same as "make it about the cat, at least the cat isn't an asshole," (which I KNOW you have been told, as a participant in your thread), it is about the fact you're failing to give the reader any reason to want to do anything but wash their hands of Mia, as it stands now.

You need to fix how you portray Mia, not switch to a bit player. But this would probably be a more useful discussion in QLH, with your critiquers. Because they know the story at least somewhat.

JSSchley · Feb 14, 2013

D) change the POV in the query to the person with the most at stake/ who changes the most.

And if that person is someone the reader isn't intended to like or root for (or as CatchingADragon put it, be fascinated by), then accept you might have a problem with the book itself.

Your query should give us a reason to care about your novel and its stakes, and a reason to think it's unique. Beyond that, it doesn't really matter if it's written from one POV but the sample pages have another, but that's if the person the query is about is the major player and the opening pages are a minor player.

Good luck! Throw a link to your thread in this thread; some of us might want to go have a look-see.

BethS · Feb 14, 2013

I haven't read the actual query. But based on your post here, I'd say focus on one of the other characters. Just because your story starts with Mia's actions doesn't mean that she's the character you need to highlight in the query.

Ultimately, whose story is this? Which character has the most to lose and the most to gain? Which character has the most compelling journey through the story? Unless this is a story of redemption, then I'm guessing that character is not Mia.

ETA: now that I've read the rest of this thread, I'm wondering: is Mia the protagonist or the antagonist? If the former, then the query does need to focus on her. But if she's the antagonist, then no.

CrastersBabies · Feb 14, 2013

I'd focus on the main character and just on her. I wouldn't even mention multiple POVs.

I would also try to make her more compelling as a main character (not sure "sympathetic" is the right word). But, there has to be something interesting and engaging about her. Is she truly just a "bad person" all the time? Or are there good qualities? If she's 100% bad, well, that's kind of falling into 2-dimensional characterization in a sense. That's not a character that I would really get into much.

Consider these types:

1. Good guy who has no flaws and never does anything wrong.
2. Bad guy who only has flaws and isn't capable of good.

Both seem like very flat characters to me.

I would put the focus on the story elements about this main character.

What does she want?

What is in her way?

What is the "then one day . . ." moment?

If those are interesting, I'm probably sold, even if the character isn't perfect.

kkbe · Feb 14, 2013

I have no problem with an mc who's an asshole or Evil Personified. Personally, I don't think likeability of the mc is as important as interestability. <-- thinking that ain't a woid.

I was in advertising design for a while. In advertising, the mantra is: Presentation is the key. If your query presents an interesting mc in a compelling situation facing significant obstacles, you're halfway there. If you can show that your mc is unique, her story is unique, you're getting closer. If you can make that mc come alive through voice and tone, such that an agent gets a real sense of your character, you're closer still. If you choose your words carefully, write clearly and succinctly, avoid generalizations, ensure your QL has zero grammatical errors. . .

The onus isn't on your mc. How cruel or sweet or odd or insane your mc is doesn't matter as much as how you, the writer, present her and her story, showing her in the best light possible.

katci13 · Feb 14, 2013

Focus on the character who gets the most face time.
The purpose of a query is to get the reader of the query to want to read your story. It just needs to highlight the stakes and be interesting.

Susan Coffin · Feb 14, 2013

I have a question for you, GiddyUpGo,

Why are you not talking about this in your query letter thread? Why have you come out here to another room with your issues?

That said, just because Mia (who I perceive as the antagonist. Or, is she supposed to be the protagonist? In other words, does she change by the end of the story and become good or something?) has the first 18 pages does not mean you are obligated to write her as the main character in your query letter.

If Angela and Sarah are most affected, my guess one of them is the antagonist, or they both are are as a team. If they are most affected by Mia's crime, my guess is they are the ones who should lead the query.

GiddyUpGo · Feb 14, 2013

Susan Littlefield said:
I have a question for you, GiddyUpGo,

Why are you not talking about this in your query letter thread? Why have you come out here to another room with your issues?

Actually it's because I've been hacking away at this for so long, and I think most of the people who were going to comment either already have or have seen so many versions that they can't see straight any more.

I kind of just wanted to get some fresh opinions from people who haven't already seen the query.

GiddyUpGo · Feb 14, 2013

quicklime said:
1. it might be a bit odd (it is; I'm being polite) to come here to ask about the advice you're getting from the folks who HAVE seen the query. there's a couple problems with this beyond the whole breach of etiquette of coming here to ask about the advice you're being given there, mainly that a) these folks may well have not have seen your query, b) the folks in QLH are the ones with the experience and desire; it isn't a spot we're sent for unruly behavior, we WANT to be there, and c) again, you're taking the advice of the folks who have seen the pitch and now asking folks who have not "are these guys full of it?"

Oh, I'm so sorry if that's the impression you got. I don't think at all that the people who have been critiquing the query are "full of it," it's just that I'm getting so many completely different opinions that I honestly don't know which one to go with. I thought asking a "what would you do" question in this forum from people who haven't seen the query would give me a fresh perspective, that's all. If it was a breach of etiquette I apologize. I never intended to upset anyone or to imply that I don't think the people in QLH know what they're talking about.

Susan Coffin · Feb 14, 2013

GiddyUpGo said:
I never intended to upset anyone or to imply that I don't think the people in QLH know what they're talking about.

I don't think anyone's upset, GiddyupGo (love your user name, but the way.

). I'm not, I was just curious.

Theo81 · Feb 15, 2013

This is not intended to be hurtful, but it is going to be frank.

You aren't listening in QLH (How many times have you been told the title of the work goes in capitals? What have you got it in?).

You are throwing up revisions like there's no tomorrow. Four in the last 36 hours. It doesn't give us a chance to crit. It doesn't give you a chance to think about the advice.

It sounds like you're trying to please everybody and that's an impossible task.

It also sounds like you have to write the Q about Mia. She doesn't have to be likeable, or sympathetic, but it may help if you could show her character a bit more. Try writing a Q in the 1st person, then use that to create a third person version - see what you get.

Also, and I cannot stress this enough: crit some queries. You'll learn a lot.

wayndom · Feb 15, 2013

I'm not at all sure why a query letter should have a POV. Mine never have, and I've had very good results from them.

A query letter should read just like the blurb on the back of a mass-market paperback, because its function is exactly the same: to tantalize the reader into wanting to read the whole book.

As such, its function is NOT to tell the whole story, but only enough salient features to intrigue the reader and make them want to read more.

IMO, the best way to learn to write a good query is to read the back-cover blurbs on lots of paperbacks.

Edited to add: On re-reading your post, I gather you're talking about a sample that goes with the query, not the query letter.

If the opening chapters present the MC as an unpleasant character that readers don't like, then you have a problem with the novel, not the query package. If readers start reading your novel, whether in a book store or on Amazon, and don't like what they see, they're not going to skip to the middle or later chapters to see if it gets better.

In short, you have to give your readers a reason to want to keep reading at all points in the story. If your MC is an unlikable person, give her some likable traits to offset her negative ones, even if she still remains more a villain than hero.

People thinking about reading a book read the first page, and if they like that, subsequent pages until they decide whether to buy it or put it back. A novel can't wait until halfway through to give readers something they like.

quicklime · Feb 15, 2013

how does one write a query in NO POV?

I don't know about the blurbs, as they tend to be replete with cliches and deliberate ominous teases, which are to me a pitch at a very different market than the agents are.....one is a commercial, one is a business pitch.

GiddyUpGo · Feb 15, 2013

wayndom said:
If the opening chapters present the MC as an unpleasant character that readers don't like, then you have a problem with the novel, not the query package.

Does she have to be likeable, though, or does the reader just have to be invested in what she's doing? If there's enough suspense about what's going to happen, do you still have to like that character?

rwm4768 · Feb 15, 2013

You might want to try writing it again from one of the other points of view. At least give the agent an indication that you're going to a more likeable character.

You might want to look at this example for how to handle the multiple points of view.

http://queryshark.blogspot.com/2011/03/199-ftw.html

Susan Coffin · Feb 15, 2013

Excellent link, RMN, as my novel is multiple point of view and I did not know how to handle two points of view. I love Query Shark.

Theo81 · Feb 16, 2013

GiddyUpGo said:
Does she have to be likeable, though, or does the reader just have to be invested in what she's doing? If there's enough suspense about what's going to happen, do you still have to like that character?

.

Dancre said:
I would go with Mia's pov. Just remember, Mia is the good guy. Who's the bad guy? What will happen if the Bad guy wins and Mia loses? Answer those questions and you'll make it. You don't have to answer every question and you just want to make the reader want to read more. Not all Main characters have to be sympathetic. Mine isn't. Folks hated mine when they first read about him, but warmed up to him later. I'm sure we'll warm up to Mia later in the book.

CatchingADragon said:
I think evil characters are always tricky, and no matter what you do, they are just less likely to work for certain readers.

I don't think the point is to make her sympathetic as an overall character, but to make her sympathetic through her situation. What is she dealing with that we can all relate to? Is there a character even more evil than her?

Or, perhaps, let her be the most evil character, but make sure her choices are extremely interesting. What lengths is she willing to go to to keep her secret? Evil characters can be extremely fascinating because they'll do things readers themselves wouldn't dare, but we still want to wonder just what would happen if we did. If you can make her fascinating, even if despicable, you should attract some readers. Some readers may still not go for it, but there'd be an audience for it somewhere.

buzhidao said:
I felt some sympathy for Mia. She's obviously twisted, but she wants this guy more than anything in the universe and is willing to do a horrible thing to get him--then he dumps her. That's painful and draws some sympathy from me. I think that's what some critters were talking about: making that moment really come through as hugely devastating...which I agree with. That crushing blow, combined with restructuring her whole life around her daughter and herself alone, is what makes her sympathetic to me. So I'd really make that bit pop.

I still think she's, yanno, twisted, but I can feel for twisted people.

CrastersBabies said:
I'd focus on the main character and just on her. I wouldn't even mention multiple POVs.

I would also try to make her more compelling as a main character (not sure "sympathetic" is the right word). But, there has to be something interesting and engaging about her. Is she truly just a "bad person" all the time? Or are there good qualities? If she's 100% bad, well, that's kind of falling into 2-dimensional characterization in a sense. That's not a character that I would really get into much.

Consider these types:

1. Good guy who has no flaws and never does anything wrong.
2. Bad guy who only has flaws and isn't capable of good.

Both seem like very flat characters to me.

I would put the focus on the story elements about this main character.

What does she want?

What is in her way?

What is the "then one day . . ." moment?

If those are interesting, I'm probably sold, even if the character isn't perfect.

kkbe said:
I have no problem with an mc who's an asshole or Evil Personified. Personally, I don't think likeability of the mc is as important as interestability. <-- thinking that ain't a woid.

I was in advertising design for a while. In advertising, the mantra is: Presentation is the key. If your query presents an interesting mc in a compelling situation facing significant obstacles, you're halfway there. If you can show that your mc is unique, her story is unique, you're getting closer. If you can make that mc come alive through voice and tone, such that an agent gets a real sense of your character, you're closer still. If you choose your words carefully, write clearly and succinctly, avoid generalizations, ensure your QL has zero grammatical errors. . .

The onus isn't on your mc. How cruel or sweet or odd or insane your mc is doesn't matter as much as how you, the writer, present her and her story, showing her in the best light possible.

Theo81 said:
This is not intended to be hurtful, but it is going to be frank.

You aren't listening in QLH (How many times have you been told the title of the work goes in capitals? What have you got it in?).

You are throwing up revisions like there's no tomorrow. Four in the last 36 hours. It doesn't give us a chance to crit. It doesn't give you a chance to think about the advice.

It sounds like you're trying to please everybody and that's an impossible task.

It also sounds like you have to write the Q about Mia. She doesn't have to be likeable, or sympathetic, but it may help if you could show her character a bit more. Try writing a Q in the 1st person, then use that to create a third person version - see what you get.

Also, and I cannot stress this enough: crit some queries. You'll learn a lot.

On the dissenting side:

wayndom said:
I'm not at all sure why a query letter should have a POV. Mine never have, and I've had very good results from them.

A query letter should read just like the blurb on the back of a mass-market paperback, because its function is exactly the same: to tantalize the reader into wanting to read the whole book.

As such, its function is NOT to tell the whole story, but only enough salient features to intrigue the reader and make them want to read more.

IMO, the best way to learn to write a good query is to read the back-cover blurbs on lots of paperbacks.

Edited to add: On re-reading your post, I gather you're talking about a sample that goes with the query, not the query letter.

If the opening chapters present the MC as an unpleasant character that readers don't like, then you have a problem with the novel, not the query package. If readers start reading your novel, whether in a book store or on Amazon, and don't like what they see, they're not going to skip to the middle or later chapters to see if it gets better.

In short, you have to give your readers a reason to want to keep reading at all points in the story. If your MC is an unlikable person, give her some likable traits to offset her negative ones, even if she still remains more a villain than hero.

People thinking about reading a book read the first page, and if they like that, subsequent pages until they decide whether to buy it or put it back. A novel can't wait until halfway through to give readers something they like.

Giddyup, why are you hung up on the MCs likeability?

Dominicus · Feb 16, 2013

My suggesstion is to change the order of POV, Have Mia's be second or third with the first POV have the purpose of leading up to Mia's Point of view, have the reader get to know them and feel comfortable and wonder what kind of person had comitted the crime and what would drive them to do it, let their imagination run wild!

BethS · Feb 16, 2013

quicklime said:
how does one write a query in NO POV?

I think people confuse POV with focus when it comes to queries. A query will typically focus on the protagonist. But it's not written in the POV of that character, because it talks about him or her. So queries don't have POVs, but they should have a focus.

quicklime · Feb 16, 2013

here they are usually written in close third, to give a better feel for the character, but failing that, wouldn't it be omni? is there such a thing as "no point of view" outside ingredient lists on cereal boxes?

Query Advice: What would you do?

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