The Pope is resigning

Torgo said:

Ladbrokes' 5/2 favourite is Ghanaian Peter Turkson. I kind of wish they'd choose the Pope by steeplechase, actually.

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Popelechase?

I like the whole pope-electing deal. If it wasn't the way it was done and you invented it for a novel, I think a lot of people would find it unbelievable. 'Really? People sit around watching for white smoke?'

TTCleveland said:

That's not very fair.



As explained above, he was addressing the Cardinals.

What is with this chip on people's shoulder? A good man is resigning because of severely bad health. This isn't a time for cheap shots.

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I'm guessing it's that many people don't think him a good man or someone who has done positive things. Seems just as valid an opinion of him as yours.

TTCleveland said:

That's not very fair.

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Sorry - it's also true. The guy has done nothing but ensure the church stays deeply entrenched in a pre-medieval mindset and has both hurt a lot of people and driven many others further away from their faith than when he took office.

What is with this chip on people's shoulder? A good man is resigning because of severely bad health. This isn't a time for cheap shots.

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If you don't understand why some of us have issues with the guy, you haven't been paying attention.
Health-wise, I wish him well. But I also wish the church well, and that will not happen with a guy like him in charge.

Torgo said:

Ladbrokes' 5/2 favourite is Ghanaian Peter Turkson. I kind of wish they'd choose the Pope by steeplechase, actually.

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Yep, an African. The rumors 10 years ago (see my previous post) might be true.

Here's the cynical part of me: the Born Agains/Evangelicals are spreading across Africa like a house on fire (with the Holy Spirit--sorry, couldn't resist!) and there are some growing tensions here that weren't present ten years ago before the Born Agains got so powerful. The selection of an African pope might be as much a political move to keep Africans "in the fold" as it were, but of course the church isn't going to elect a dummy, either.

Torgo said:

I don't think you ought to be able to resign from the position of Pope;

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Why not? If I can ask respectfully. In the RCC, there are only three rites of holy orders: deaconate, priesthood, and bishop. My wording might not be technically correct in the following, but being a cardinal or the pope is an office and not a sacrament. Just like in a university, a professor might become department head, but he or she is still a professor and will still be a professor if they step down from the office of department head. Joseph Ratsinger (aka Benedict XVI) will still be a bishop even if he steps down from the papacy. I'm not sure if that addresses your comment, though.

Torgo said:

It's just... you're the Pope. For hundreds and hundreds of years, the Pope has died with his boots on. John Paul II was incredibly ill for the last few years, and nobody reproached him for not resigning.

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I think Benedict did a brave thing. He wants what is best for the Church and he recognises he himself is not it.

Torgo said:

John Paul II was incredibly ill for the last few years, and nobody reproached him for not resigning.

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That's not entirely true. I'm not sure any prominent church leaders said anything publicly, but I certainly remember hearing a lot of folks privately saying it was well past time.

The news caught me by surprise. I'm not Catholic so I don't know a whole lot about the workings of the Catholic church's ways of succession, but like everyone else, thought he would die on the job and they'd elect a new guy. While it could be because of the scandals or poor health--or both--perhaps he's just breaking with precedent.

Torgo said:

It's just when it hasn't happened for about sixty papacies, you start to wonder. It's not like we haven't had infirm, elderly popes before.

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The Church isn't the monolithic, unchanging entity it's frequently made out to be, though change takes a long while to seep in. We've probably now seen the last of the infirm, elderly popes. Wonder if the House of Windsor is watching?

Chris P said:

Why not? If I can ask respectfully. In the RCC, there are only three rites of holy orders: deaconate, priesthood, and bishop. My wording might not be technically correct in the following, but being a cardinal or the pope is an office and not a sacrament. Just like in a university, a professor might become department head, but he or she is still a professor and will still be a professor if they step down from the office of department head. Joseph Ratsinger (aka Benedict XVI) will still be a bishop even if he steps down from the papacy. I'm not sure if that addresses your comment, though.

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The Pope is also a King, and the head of the Vatican nation state. If cardinals are princes of the Church, then the Pope is their king. Very feudal and all. Kings die on the job, traditionally.

Like Stephen Fry, I certainly don't think that the RCC is a force for good in the world, and this pope certainly has not improved that. I'm glad he's resigning. Good riddance.

TTCleveland said:

What is with this chip on people's shoulder? A good man is resigning because of severely bad health. This isn't a time for cheap shots.

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Unfortunately Catholic-bashing is pretty popular.

Sheryl Nantus said:

Unfortunately Catholic-bashing is pretty popular.

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Glass houses. The Catholic Church has spent a great deal of time and money in an attempt to dictate societal opinions. It's not Catholic-bashing for the folks they're oppressing--and make no mistake, it is oppression--to say they don't think the RCC is a force for good in a modern world.

TTCleveland said:

What is with this chip on people's shoulder? A good man is resigning because of severely bad health. This isn't a time for cheap shots.

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With all due respect, someone disagreeing with your opinion doesn't mean they have a chip on their shoulder. You think he's a good man, many others do not. Your opinion is no more valid than theirs, or mine.

Plot Device said:

OMG!

The Prophecy of St. Malachy is now about to unfold!!

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7827882&highlight=pope#post7827882


Run for the hills!










.

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Heh. We had barely recovered from the devastation of the Mayan Apocalypse, and now we have to deal with Peter the Roman.

I find it interesting that this happens right after the abuse papers were released and those not even being everything the church promised to release. I personally think it has more to do with that than bad health. Of course I have nothing to back that up, it's just an opinion of mine.

Thing is, saying "the pope has done multiple bad/harmful things that I think make him a bad person" or "the power the Catholic church itself wields is/has been used to do a lot of very harmful things" is not bashing Catholics. It's not "nyah boo, Catholics suck". It's criticising things that have been done. Actions.

If anyone receives spiritual or emotional wellbeing from being Catholic, feels their Catholic faith is important to them or the like, I don't think anyone who's commented here would criticise that. But the Pope is a man who has covered up for child abusers and pedophiles for years and has promoted a campaign of hatred towards LGBTQ people that, in countries where the church has more power, has had a devastating impact on the emotional, mental and physical wellbeing of millions.

Saying he's not a good person, or that the church as an institution is not currently a force for good, is not bashing individual Catholics. Any more than saying that "Asatru has a big problem with racism" is bashing my Norse beliefs. We do have a big problem with racism. And it is something we need to acknowledge and deal with.

I'm not glad a person may be in ill health, but I am glad that a person who has used a position of power to do great harm is stepping down, even if I'm not terribly hopeful that his replacement will be any better.

This feels quite weird. All of the abuse and pedophilia scandals didn't made them blink, and as for his health, they were this close of building JPII an exoskeleton battlemech when he died. My inner Diana Hignutt tells me there's something else going on.

When I see a headline with the word "Pope", I always hope either it's a death notice, or Ratzinger is confessing his sins to the world. He's a protector of countless child-rapers. If he came to America again, I'd hope, but not expect, he'd be arrested for obstruction of justice.

Plot Device said:

That's the thing about prophecies, they unfold under their own schedules.

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It helps if they're written after the fact, or sufficiently vague to be fitted to almost any reasonable outcome. Or both.

Will the next Pope be any better? Well, I'm no prophet, but I can imagine a more progressive one, more in tune with most modern Catholics, could gain back some goodwill for the Church.

Maxinquaye said:

Kings die on the job, traditionally.

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Tell that to Queen Beatrix.

He's not abdicating 'cuz he fell in love with a peasant, right? Because that'd be creepier than the apocalypse.