Changing Mythology: Good or Bad?

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baileycakes14

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I agree with the blogger. There's room for clever re-inventions of tropes and cultural mainstays, but it needs to be done well. By writers who are not afraid to research the primary and secondary sources. I like UF and PR, but certain elements alert me to be extra-picky about other flaws in the work. If too many of them rack up in the first chapter or so, I stop reading.
 

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I'm not completely sure how I feel about this. I do agree that it is important to know the mythology, and culture your creature is based on...but after that?

I completely agree with her first point, if you are writing about a native american character making her a blonde hair blue eyed shaman (when you might not even know what a shaman is exactly) is offensive and a little ridiculous.

On the other hand, lets say you have a Fae character who has been alive for thousands of years and lives in a supernatural town, or small town that lacks iron. After living for so long, and having been exposed to many different cultures the Fae might not be or act in a way that would live up to the original cultural beliefs. Also writers can change the mythology in a way that is believable, but I do think the change should be explained.

A demonic Fae going to hell could work if it was explained properly. Maybe demons can change or possess other beings and take them to hell?

I think that if you know what you're doing (aka thoroughly researched the mythology), you can completely change a supernatural concept to the point that the original culture might strongly disagree with it. I think you could do it well, but stepping on someones ancestral toes might be unavoidable in that situation.
 

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Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Hercules, Charmed, Xena Warrior Princess, Angel...all those shows bent myths all the time. Just because the blogger thinks it could be offensive, doesn't mean everyone will find it offensive.

That said, I do think people need to be familiar with the mythology, cultures, and religions they're basing their work off of. If nothing else, that knowledge can be extremely beneficial to writer.
 
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I'm not completely sure how I feel about this. I do agree that it is important to know the mythology, and culture your creature is based on...but after that?

I completely agree with her first point, if you are writing about a native american character making her a blonde hair blue eyed shaman (when you might not even know what a shaman is exactly) is offensive and a little ridiculous.

Etymology fun fact of the day: "shaman" is actually a term for a practitioner of Siberian/Ural/Altaic folk religion, and has nothing whatsoever to do with Native Americans. So when people write about Native American "shamans", their ignorance and lack of reseearch is hanging out there for all to see.

On the other hand, lets say you have a Fae character who has been alive for thousands of years and lives in a supernatural town, or small town that lacks iron. After living for so long, and having been exposed to many different cultures the Fae might not be or act in a way that would live up to the original cultural beliefs. Also writers can change the mythology in a way that is believable, but I do think the change should be explained.

A demonic Fae going to hell could work if it was explained properly. Maybe demons can change or possess other beings and take them to hell?

I think that if you know what you're doing (aka thoroughly researched the mythology), you can completely change a supernatural concept to the point that the original culture might strongly disagree with it. I think you could do it well, but stepping on someones ancestral toes might be unavoidable in that situation.


Or you could, you know, make up your own thing. What's the point of ganking material from another culture if you're going to change it so much that they don't recognize it/are offended by you trying to connect it to them? Oh, yeah, to make your story "exotic". That's what people object to in terms of cultural appropriation.


For example, look at belly-dancing in the West. Think about the stereotypes we have of the practice and its supposed "history". It's a great example of the sexualization of other cultures for our own titillation, which is one form of cultural appropriation. I'll bet you don't know that Western "belly-dance" is actually the amalgamation of not only multiple Old World traditions of folk dance, but also the introduction of jazz and dance hall traditions from the West. It has a long history and many connotations for the people in places where the various traditions originated. But the cultural imperialism of the Victorian British in Egypt conflates it with things like stripping and so-called "exotic dancing". (The meaning of that term out to be a pretty big hint to you.)


Now, the co-opting of Celtic mythology may not create the same sense of violation in your mind, but it's a pretty accurate parallel.


In creating your story mythology, be respectful of the cultures who you are using as inspiration: do your research and if you find yourself straying to far from what you've learned, then maybe it's time to drop the "Celtic" or "Wiccan" or "Arabic" label, and just go with the generic. Lots of cultures have myths of fairies and the Fair Folk, so it's fine to use those terms, but don't use the specific labels if the thing you're creating doesn't really match the truth of those labels.
 

baileycakes14

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In creating your story mythology, be respectful of the cultures who you are using as inspiration: do your research and if you find yourself straying to far from what you've learned, then maybe it's time to drop the "Celtic" or "Wiccan" or "Arabic" label, and just go with the generic. Lots of cultures have myths of fairies and the Fair Folk, so it's fine to use those terms, but don't use the specific labels if the thing you're creating doesn't really match the truth of those labels.

That's a good way to put it. I think a really good example of realizing the mythology has evolved too far off the original to even be considered the same thing is the Auphe in Rob Thurman's Cal Leandros series. It's stated several times that the Auphe are kind of like Elves and maybe even the beginning of the myth, but in the end they were so radically different that they needed a different name. It doesn't exactly match up with the whole "Respect different cultures and their mythologies" thing but I think it's a good example of recognizing when a myth has been changed enough to warrant its own name and rules.
 

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I think changing the mythology is okay as long as those changes make sense.

I think changing the mythology is okay as long as those changes make sense.

I hate to pick on Twilight, but since it was brought up let's look at the changes it made to the vampire mythos. Now, vampires have been done and redone a thousand times. From Nosferatu to Interview With a Vampire, the differences are striking. But the types of vampires in those stories are consistent with the type of story being told. They never stop being vampires.

An example of an okay change: Vampires can go out into sunlight. This is fine. But Twilight takes this point and moves into the absurd: The reason they don't go into the sunlight is because they sparkle.

What possible biological purpose could sparkling in the sunlight serve? The book says that everything about vampires is designed to draw prey to them. It's even implied that the sparkling is a part of this mechanism. But even a mote of logic reveals the flaw in that reasoning. First, a sparkling person would be strange to most people. It would draw a lot of attention (to a species that is in hiding), and would more than likely make people think something was wrong with them.

But is it just sunlight or all light that they sparkle in? If so, why? There are a few differences between bulb light and sunlight, but not enough to reflect differently on a surface in any meaningful way. So do the vampires sparkle while at school? Apparently not, since nobody ever says anything about it. But why not?

Is the sparkling only in direct, intense light? If so, that brings us back to the first point: what possible biological purpose could that serve?

More to the point (as it is mentioned in the book), the vampires are super strong and super fast. Sparkling to (somehow) attract a human victim is unnecessary. Why do they need to get them within a certain range? They can run well over a hundred miles an hour, so fast that they actually blur. Getting your prey close to you is unnecessary.

I suppose my point is that whatever change you make to the mythology, you need to make sure that it is within your reader's Suspension of Disbelief. Some stories can get away with more changes than others.
 
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Miguelito

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Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Hercules, Charmed, Xena Warrior Princess, Angel...all those shows bent myths all the time. Just because the blogger thinks it could be offensive, doesn't mean everyone will find it offensive.

That said, I do think people need to be familiar with the mythology, cultures, and religions they're basing their work off of. If nothing else, that knowledge can be extremely beneficial to writer.

So much of this ^.

Frankly, it's good to know the origins of stuff, but a large segment of the audience just isn't going to care, but just want to be entertained.

If you're aiming your work at hardcore mythology buffs, then you'll want to keep it as legit as possible. If not, you get can away with significant degrees of freedom.

I think that Meyers and her sparkly vampires demonstrated this very well, that striking emotional chords with the reader doesn't require mythological accuracy.
 
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So much of this ^.

Frankly, it's good to know the origins of stuff, but a large segment of the audience just isn't going to care, but just want to be entertained.

If you're aiming your work at hardcore mythology buffs, then you'll want to keep it as legit as possible. If not, you get can away with significant degrees of freedom.

I think that Meyers and her sparkly vampires demonstrated this very well, that striking emotional chords with the reader doesn't require mythological accuracy.

I think changing the mythology is okay as long as those changes make sense.

I think changing the mythology is okay as long as those changes make sense.

I hate to pick on Twilight, but since it was brought up let's look at the changes it made to the vampire mythos. Now, vampires have been done and redone a thousand times. From Nosferatu to Interview With a Vampire, the differences are striking. But the types of vampires in those stories are consistent with the type of story being told. They never stop being vampires.

An example of an okay change: Vampires can go out into sunlight. This is fine. But Twilight takes this point and moves into the absurd: The reason they don't go into the sunlight is because they sparkle.

What possible biological purpose could sparkling in the sunlight serve? The book says that everything about vampires is designed to draw prey to them. It's even implied that the sparkling is a part of this mechanism. But even a mote of logic reveals the flaw in that reasoning. First, a sparkling person would be strange to most people. It would draw a lot of attention (to a species that is in hiding), and would more than likely make people think something was wrong with them.

But is it just sunlight or all light that they sparkle in? If so, why? There are a few differences between bulb light and sunlight, but not enough to reflect differently on a surface in any meaningful way. So do the vampires sparkle while at school? Apparently not, since nobody ever says anything about it. But why not?

Is the sparkling only in direct, intense light? If so, that brings us back to the first point: what possible biological purpose could that serve?

More to the point (as it is mentioned in the book), the vampires are super strong and super fast. Sparkling to (somehow) attract a human victim is unnecessary. Why do they need to get them within a certain range? They can run well over a hundred miles an hour, so fast that they actually blur. Getting your prey close to you is unnecessary.

I suppose my point is that whatever change you make to the mythology, you need to make sure that it is within your reader's Suspension of Disbelief. Some stories can get away with more changes than others.


I'm wondering if you even read the linked article? The blogger isn't discussing things in terms of mythology buffs or whether readers will accept the changes. The post is about cultural appropriation, and mythology is just an example the author uses because she happens to blog about Urban Fantasy, where mythology is a major part of stories in the genre.

If I were to write an Urban Fantasy that I said was based on Christian mythology, and then attempt to market it in the US/UK/OZ, what do you think the reaction would be if I did no research, wrote about whatever I felt like, included enormous factual inaccuracies, and included some material that was honestly somewhat offensive to practicing Christians.

I mean, as long as I strike an emotional chord with the audience, I can say whatever I like about Jesus, right? If I get a few rites or hymns wrong, it's okay.

My Jesus is Asian, a drunk, and gets into lots of fights. (He has a bit of an inferiority complex.) He may have killed a few people who denied his divinity. That's cool with you, right? I mean, I'm just trying to entertain people.


(I don't know if you're Christian or not. I'm picking on Christianity because it's the main cultural mythology in most of the reading markets that are relevant to AW.)
 

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Etymology fun fact of the day: "shaman" is actually a term for a practitioner of Siberian/Ural/Altaic folk religion, and has nothing whatsoever to do with Native Americans. So when people write about Native American "shamans", their ignorance and lack of reseearch is hanging out there for all to see.




Or you could, you know, make up your own thing. What's the point of ganking material from another culture if you're going to change it so much that they don't recognize it/are offended by you trying to connect it to them? Oh, yeah, to make your story "exotic". That's what people object to in terms of cultural appropriation.


For example, look at belly-dancing in the West. Think about the stereotypes we have of the practice and its supposed "history". It's a great example of the sexualization of other cultures for our own titillation, which is one form of cultural appropriation. I'll bet you don't know that Western "belly-dance" is actually the amalgamation of not only multiple Old World traditions of folk dance, but also the introduction of jazz and dance hall traditions from the West. It has a long history and many connotations for the people in places where the various traditions originated. But the cultural imperialism of the Victorian British in Egypt conflates it with things like stripping and so-called "exotic dancing". (The meaning of that term out to be a pretty big hint to you.)


Now, the co-opting of Celtic mythology may not create the same sense of violation in your mind, but it's a pretty accurate parallel.


In creating your story mythology, be respectful of the cultures who you are using as inspiration: do your research and if you find yourself straying to far from what you've learned, then maybe it's time to drop the "Celtic" or "Wiccan" or "Arabic" label, and just go with the generic. Lots of cultures have myths of fairies and the Fair Folk, so it's fine to use those terms, but don't use the specific labels if the thing you're creating doesn't really match the truth of those labels.
Thats true! In my mythology based stories, I change the name of the creature if they are too different. I wonder if some people don't change the names because they want to give a mainstream audience something familiar. Even the Fae are something that Americans might find more comforting than some made up Fae-like creature. I'm not saying that this is the right way to go about using mythology, I'm just trying to figure out why someone would do this.

I don't know anything at all about belly dancing. I can imagine what horrible things Western culture would do to any form of dance.

I came back to this post tonight because I'm reading an urban fantasy novel that kind of butchers Celtic Fae. I'm a huge fantasy/mythology lover and I do personally try to stay true to the mythology or give the creature a different name (like I stated above). This author is awesome, but the moment I saw what they did with Fae I was extremely upset..and a little angry. Okay, maybe very angry. I do believe that you can tweak things a little, if it makes sense, but if you take the heart and soul out of the creature than its not the same being. A modernized Fae in a city can exist, what this author did...cannot.

A modernized creature of mythology could actually be an interesting way to describe/interpret an ancient culture and compare it to our own.
 

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If I were to write an Urban Fantasy that I said was based on Christian mythology, and then attempt to market it in the US/UK/OZ, what do you think the reaction would be if I did no research, wrote about whatever I felt like, included enormous factual inaccuracies, and included some material that was honestly somewhat offensive to practicing Christians.

I mean, as long as I strike an emotional chord with the audience, I can say whatever I like about Jesus, right? If I get a few rites or hymns wrong, it's okay.

My Jesus is Asian, a drunk, and gets into lots of fights. (He has a bit of an inferiority complex.) He may have killed a few people who denied his divinity. That's cool with you, right? I mean, I'm just trying to entertain people.


(I don't know if you're Christian or not. I'm picking on Christianity because it's the main cultural mythology in most of the reading markets that are relevant to AW.)

Uh... huh...

o_O
 

Miguelito

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My Jesus is Asian, a drunk, and gets into lots of fights. (He has a bit of an inferiority complex.) He may have killed a few people who denied his divinity. That's cool with you, right? I mean, I'm just trying to entertain people.

You write it well and I'll read it because the premise you provide sounds very interesting. :D I'm absolutely serious.

Frankly, I'm one of the "audience" that doesn't care whether it's accurate or not. That's not to say that I avoid accuracy, it just means I don't require it. Something accurate can be entertaining when it weaves together threads of history and mythology or weaves together cultural norms that don't necessarily belong to each other, but I don't mind something that discards it either, as long as it's a good story. I don't care if a story "offends" cultural sensitivity either.

I just want to be entertained. That means good characters. Good world building (historically or mythologically or culturally or not). Good plot. Good prose.

And, in fact, the historical Jesus was Asian (the last time I checked, Israel and the surrounding area is in Asia). He very likely wasn't some pasty-white dude as depicted in so much European art.
 
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You write it well and I'll read it because the premise you provide sounds very interesting. :D I'm absolutely serious.


Yeah, that sort of story really isn't my cup of tea as a writer, although I admit I might read it if someone else wrote it. Sorry. XD

I don't care if a story "offends" cultural sensitivity either.

There's a lot more to cultural appropriation than offending "cultural sensitivity". But this forum is not the place for a discussion of the concept of privilege and how you are missing the point of the linked article.

I just want to be entertained. That means good characters. Good world building (historically or mythologically or culturally or not). Good plot. Good prose.

And, in fact, the historical Jesus was Asian (the last time I checked, Israel and the surrounding area is in Asia). He very likely wasn't some pasty-white dude as depicted in so much European art.

Perhaps I should have clarified that I meant East Asian: Mongolian or Indian, as opposed to Levantine.
 
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Miguelito

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There's a lot more to cultural appropriation than offending "cultural sensitivity". But this forum is not the place for a discussion of the concept of privilege and how you are missing the point of the linked article
Well, maybe I was, but what she is mainly talking about is cultural sensitivity.

She's expressing her displeasure about how some writers dare to pull some things out of legend and culture to put into their stories without having the "respect" to keep it all intact with the cultural context it came from.

While I respect her opinion, many readers don't care and, as a writer, if the story is better by keeping that context then I'll keep it, but if I think I can take it in a better direction by doing something else, I'll do it that way.

And, when she says. "Can all of us say we'd be comfortable if it was our religion and our culture being twisted for commercial purposes?", I'm totally comfortable when somebody does it with my "culture".

I still want my grumpy, hungover, Mongolian Jesus, however.
 
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Well, maybe I was, but what she is mainly talking about is cultural sensitivity.

She's expressing her displeasure about how some writers dare to pull some things out of legend and culture to put into their stories without having the "respect" to keep it all intact with the cultural context it came from.

I don't think it's so much that writers "dare" to take things out of cultural context, but that they do it through ignorance and privilege, rather than understanding and respect for the culture.

She does at the end of the piece mention that she would like to see some of these traditions explored more accurately and in-depth than they have been, but the question and the answers to it are so much more complex than that.

While I respect her opinion, many readers don't care and, as a writer, if the story is better by keeping that context then I'll keep it, but if I think I can take it in a better direction by doing something else, I'll do it that way.

It's easy not to care about something that doesn't have special relevance to you. For example, imperialist states in the 18th and 19th centuries didn't care about the cultures they were destroying, because hey, it wasn't their culture after all.

And, when she says. "Can all of us say we'd be comfortable if it was our religion and our culture being twisted for commercial purposes?", I'm totally comfortable when somebody does it with my "culture".

If you don't mind my asking, what is your culture?

I still want my grumpy, hungover, Mongolian Jesus, however.

Anyone is free to take that idea and run with it. It might be best in a short story, but I think there's plenty of material there for a novel, as well. XD
 

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If you don't mind my asking, what is your culture?

Canadian atheist. And I'm well aware of sensitivities around things like North American aboriginals and did have to do quite a bit of research for one book. That didn't stopped me from taking liberties around some of the mythology however, because, the story wasn't calling for the cultural depth I was looking into.
 

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I don't like changes to mythology because they get you out of the story. I can't tell you how many vampire books or films I've seen where a character or narrator says something along the lines of "forget everything you think you know about vampires..."

It feels like a cop-out. Annoying.

Ironically, though, I find the sparkling thing too funny to complain about.
 

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One of my friends is an anthropologist by training. Her first published novel takes myths from all over - particularly early Mesopotamian cultures, but also Irish, Native American and other legends - and interweaves it into a modern urban fantasy setting with teen angst, overbearing HOAs and Cheetos craving demon-jackals and an ancient goddess tearing up half of the Denver-metro area, killing thousands of people.

My book, on the other hand, takes the idea that magic is based in the ancient elements of fire, water, air and earth, plus spirit which is held above all of those, uses the idea that ancient peoples knew about the magic and dealt with it in different ways, but pretty much ignores the rest of what those ancient cultures did. I'm not an anthroplogist, so I'm not going to try and explain how fire magic figured into the reign of Queen Boudicca or what the specific meaning of fairy might be. The characters live in modern America and they use modern American terms to refer to things. A big bad thing from another dimension summond through a complex ritual is a demon - regardless if someone called it "Chronos" the last time it appeared. I freely mix and match from various myths, under the assumption that if magic is real, every culture came up with its own explanation of the same phenomena.

The anthropologist approves. What do I care if this blogger does?
 

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My Jesus is Asian, a drunk, and gets into lots of fights. (He has a bit of an inferiority complex.) He may have killed a few people who denied his divinity. That's cool with you, right? I mean, I'm just trying to entertain people.

/raises hand

Christian here.

Can I read this? It sounds like it could be really interesting. Maybe the rest of the story is how the propaganda machine changed everything.

Have you seen the Jesus episode of "Red Dwarf" in the recent season. Hi-larious!
 

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And, when she says. "Can all of us say we'd be comfortable if it was our religion and our culture being twisted for commercial purposes?", I'm totally comfortable when somebody does it with my "culture".

I still want my grumpy, hungover, Mongolian Jesus, however.

I won't lie, I'd rather like the idea of the grumpy, hungover, Mongolian Jesus too.

But this is still not always a convincing argument. The question whether you would be okay with your own culture being misrepresented is not necessarily relevant for the issue at hand. Assuming that your culture is the dominant one in your region, it will get a sufficiently varied and accurate representation in the media you consume. Of course you can afford to generously look past the occasional misrepresentation, considering that it's rather going to be the exception to the rule.

This however is a luxury someone in a minority position won't have. And therefore the situation is just not compareable.

But it's a tricky issue and I'm certainly not without sin myself in that regard, so I probably won't be in a position to be throwing stones any time soon.

I'd like to have a character inspired by the Sinti/Roma in my story, who can actually tell the future and also knows a thing or two about curses and songs (and steals stuff, I'm afraid, but we will later learn that she did it for more or less altruistic reasons), but I find the prospect rather daunting, because there's a high potential to make this awfully stereotypical and awful in general; the Sinti/Roma certainly being a group that gets misrepresented at lot, and my knowledge of them so far sadly mainly based on such likely misrepresentations.

Even if I likely won't call them Sinti/Roma in my story, it's going to be a bit of a minefield.
 
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I'm afraid hung-over Mongolian Jesus is going to have to be written by someone else, as I rarely write primary world fantasy/alt history novels.

One of my friends is an anthropologist by training. Her first published novel takes myths from all over - particularly early Mesopotamian cultures, but also Irish, Native American and other legends - and interweaves it into a modern urban fantasy setting with teen angst, overbearing HOAs and Cheetos craving demon-jackals and an ancient goddess tearing up half of the Denver-metro area, killing thousands of people.

No one could make any sort of useful comment about this book without having read it.

My book, on the other hand, takes the idea that magic is based in the ancient elements of fire, water, air and earth, plus spirit which is held above all of those, uses the idea that ancient peoples knew about the magic and dealt with it in different ways, but pretty much ignores the rest of what those ancient cultures did. I'm not an anthroplogist, so I'm not going to try and explain how fire magic figured into the reign of Queen Boudicca or what the specific meaning of fairy might be. The characters live in modern America and they use modern American terms to refer to things. A big bad thing from another dimension summond through a complex ritual is a demon - regardless if someone called it "Chronos" the last time it appeared. I freely mix and match from various myths, under the assumption that if magic is real, every culture came up with its own explanation of the same phenomena.

The anthropologist approves. What do I care if this blogger does?


I don't know your anthropologist friend. Nor does being an anthropologist suddenly make her an authority on cultural appropriation or some sort of authority on whether what you've written falls under that label. But for the record, it is not this specific blogger that is important. It's the problem in the genre that many, many intelligent people have tried to address that you should be concerned with.
 
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I think the original post doesn't really capture the blogger's viewpoint. It's not about changing mythology; it's about being informed and respectful when it comes to other people's culture.

This isn't something limited to the supernatural either. I recall a writer who described someone holding a katana in a fencer's stance. I literally spent a minute attempting to visualize this as it makes no sense to someone passingly familiar with the way that sword is wielded. I recall a story where the main character is in Las Vegas, goes to the city's edge, and watches the sun set on the flat desert.

Problem? Las Vegas is in a valley. It's surrounded on all sides by mountains.

As a reader, these things mildly annoy me, but only mildly as they don't make up an important part of my life.

A Native American who reads a story featuring a Native American 'shaman' is going to be pissed. The author (and the editor and publisher) is showing they don't give a flying **** about Native American culture. They just want something exotic and mystical for their book.
 

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My Jesus is Asian, a drunk, and gets into lots of fights. (He has a bit of an inferiority complex.) He may have killed a few people who denied his divinity. That's cool with you, right? I mean, I'm just trying to entertain people.

I'd read that any day, to be honest.

One thing I like about myths and legends it that, within the context of your world, they can so easily turn out to be wrong. Imagine the vampire looming over you with a stake sticking out of its chest and being very much still alive.

"Oh, the stake thing? Yeah, we made that up," says Vampy as he goes for your throat. "Bad luck."
 
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Apparently the drunk Mongolian Jesus was not the best example. Although, since white Christianity is a privileged category in much of the English speaking world, there aren't really any perfect examples.


Something like staking a vampire not working is fine, because vampires for the most part, as portrayed in most Western popular media, are not associated with any particular culture, minority or otherwise.
 

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I'll play. As a Wiccan/witch, I tend to find it irritating when someone writes a book about witches and obviously hasn't researched our path farther than watching The Craft.

I'll probably get hate mail of my own because in my trad our directions are a little different than generic Wicca and I use those in my book.

Just another related pet peeve is that nearly every book I read about so-called witches takes place at Samhain. Despite the fact that we have eight sabbats/year not including Moosemas the only time things seem to happen in the fictional Wiccan world is at Samhain. Also it seems that every fictional witch seems to have ancestors from Salem.

Now, if you're writing non-Wiccan witches that aren't supposed to be anything like real world ones, I'm fine with that.

As for vamps (or any other mythological critter) being slightly different than their folklore I can go along with that. And the "We made that up to mess with you. Mwahahah!" answer works fine for me. The sparkly vamps do make me laugh though.

But if, for instance your character is the reincarnation of Odin, then I hope you'll at least read the myths about him.
 
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