He'd "feel bad" if the government paid for elderly peoples' medical care.
He'd "feel bad" if the government paid for elderly peoples' medical care.
It's NOT the end of steam, it's the end of CHEAP steam.
Be prepared. (Sandy said so.)
Dude's 72. He should lead by example.
I wrote a blog.Between a good and a bad economist this constitutes the whole difference - the one takes account of the visible effect;
the other takes account both of the effects which are seen, and also of those which it is necessary to foresee. ~Frederic BastiatEconomics puts parameters on peopleís utopias. ~Peter BoettkeThe 'social contract' is to the politician what 'original sin' is to the priest. ~DonThe vision of the helpful and protective state is the most pervasive and counter-productive ideology in the world today. ~Don
I tend to blame the Feds for Don, actually.If they'd get it right, we wouldn't need Don pointing out that they'd gotten it wrong.~ Medievalist
To be fair, it is an insightful perspective into Japan's growing generation gap.
In many ways, Japan is still recovering from WWII, and its declining birth rate on top of that means there's a uniquely huge cultural and age gap between the older generation and the younger generation in what has historically been a very homogenous country.
From the article, what he said (my boldface):
When he says he would "feel bad," I think he means that if he was in that situation, himself. He clarified that he was speaking about end of life medical care. Not so outrageous, imo."Heaven forbid if you are forced to live on when you want to die. I would wake up feeling increasingly bad knowing that [treatment] was all being paid for by the government," he said during a meeting of the national council on social security reforms. "The problem won't be solved unless you let them hurry up and die."
I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death. --Thomas Hobbes
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Yeah.... this shows the benefit of actually reading the article.
I pretty much agree with him. You should be allowed to die when you're ready to go.
I hope I die like my grandmother did. In her own bed, surrounded by family.
If not, then I just want it to be quick.
Last edited by mirandashell; 01-24-2013 at 04:51 PM. Reason: Bloody hell! I just agreed with Rob......... :-D
"I want to die like my father, peacefully in his sleep, not screaming and terrified, like his passengers." - Bob Monkhouse
I read the article. The guy still sounds like an asshole.
Aso (rhymes with asshole) seems like he'd be right at home immigrating to America and running as a Tea Party politician."I see people aged 67 or 68 at class reunions who dodder around and are constantly going to the doctor," he said at a meeting of economists. "Why should I have to pay for people who just eat and drink and make no effort? I walk every day and do other things, but I'm paying more in taxes."
It had long been true, and prisoners knew this better than anyone, that the poorer you were the more likely you were to end up in jail. This was not just because the poor committed more crimes. In fact, they did. The rich did not have to commit crimes to get what they wanted; the laws were on their side. But when the rich did commit crimes, they often were not prosecuted, and if they were they could get out on bail, hire clever lawyers, get better treatment from judges. Somehow, the jails ended up full of poor black people.
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I wish my grand-grandmother could die soon. She's 92, morbidly obese, can't raise from her bed or walk in her own, needs to use diapers all the time, is deaf and almost blind, and has had this conditions for the past four years. She claims it's hell.
Originally Posted by blacbird
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Beyond the 'welfare state' argument that this is, there is a real question about "quantity vs. quality" of life, I think. I'm one of those who would rather be able to "step off' at some point.
My biggest fear is that I will in some way be physically or cognitively debilitated to the point that I won't be able to make that decision when the time comes.
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I don't suppose any of our members who live or have lived in Japan can comment on the growing generation gap issue the country is facing? It seems like understanding the cultural issues at play here would be pretty important in understanding the perspective in this story.
I fear getting old a lot more than dying.
Bennett The Sage made an interesting connection with Grave of the Fireflies to the generation gap.
"Watch your thoughts, they become words.
Watch your words, they become actions.
Watch your actions, they become habits.
Watch your habits, they become character.
Watch your character, it becomes your destiny."
At least he's honest about what he thinks, unlike many Western politicians
"Life isnít divided into genres. Itís a horrifying, romantic, tragic, comical, science-fiction cowboy detective novel. You know, with a bit of pornography if you're lucky."
Most of the talk, though, is more about raising birth rates. It's not that easy to do, though, as a lot of the reasons they are having fewer children have to do with problems with family and work traditions that are difficult to change.
In Japan, typically speaking a couple gets married, the woman stays home (especially after having kids) and the husband works. However, overtime is common and expected, and it's considered a bad thing to leave early, to the point that in a lot of places you don't leave before your superiors, even if your work is done. Husbands often work until nine or ten, then go out and have drinks, and don't return home until late. They get up at five or six in the morning and do it again.
That means wives are left to fend for raising children increasingly on their own, and often feel like single mothers. They often don't want to have more children because they know they'll be doing much of the child-rearing and household work on their own.
There's been a push to try to limit work hours and overtime to help this situation, but what happens is they'll declare that work ends at a certain time and people just stay late anyway.
So there is some push to try to change the way things are and increase the birth rate, but a large percentage of the population are seniors, and while I was there it was usually seen as a problem on the young end, not the old end.
My grandfather, sick and weak, told me this Christmas: (from memory, so maybe not perfect)
"Those scientists think they're so damned smart, keeping people alive longer than ever before... and everybody thinks, 'oh, isn't it great how long people are living?' but nobody tells you what it's like to live this long. It's miserable. Just terrible. No one should be forced to outlive their usefulness. Living like this - helpless, weak, hurting all the time, can't even get to the bathroom right - nobody should be forced to do that. They got me in the hospital all the time now... why can't they just let me die? Let me have some damned dignity."
The "usefulness" thing echos what the finance minister said almost eerily. It stuck out to me at the time, and I tried arguing with Grandpa about it... but what it came down to is he felt useless, and therefore worthless. He was beginning to hate himself because of what he had become.
It's worth noting that Grandpa has a degenerative nerve disease, and is not doing at all well. On the other hand, there are people like my husband's grandmother - well into her eighties, she's spry, witty, and a joy to be around. She takes pleasure in life and in her family. It would be a travesty to let her die from anything remotely recoverable. She's worth fighting for... and more importantly, she'd want that chance.
I think the US goes too far in some cases, in that it does not allow for assissted suicide and often treats patients even when they would prefer to let their maladies take their toll. But any nation who didn't do it's damnedest to cover the basic healthcare needs of people like my husband's grandmother would be going too far in the other direction. There needs to be room for personal choice in end-of-life care decisions, and whatever choice is made, I think our laws and our healthcare should respect it.
Before one of my grandmothers died, she told her three kids that if they did anything to unnecessarily prolong her life, that when she really did die, she'd come back and haunt them
One of my grandfathers suffered a series of strokes and spent the last year of his life in a hospital bed paralysed on one side. He was miserable the entire time and it was compounded by the knowledge that he wouldn't get better. No thanks.
I am in no way saying that people should be pushed to die just because they are old. Like everyone else, the older I get, the older my definition of 'old' is getting.
But if I have no quality of life, like some of the people mentioned in the thread, just let me go.
Okay, I'm just going to say now that I think the generation gap is a more interesting discussion than the right-to-die and life-quality stuff which (I think) isn't exactly a debate that hasn't come up before around here in various forms (with some frequency).
The particular quote that inspired this thread probably is more about that, but I'm more interested in the politics of a population dealing with a major cultural gap between its generations. I don't think it's entirely impertinent to other states, either.
For a long time in the US, for example, issues like social security are something that no politician's really been willing to touch...
On the one hand, that's something that could very quickly lose you the vote of older generations, nor is distributing money to the elderly who've "earned it" as controversial as welfare or socialized healthcare and that kind of thing. On the other hand, I don't think it would be possible to win an election today without winning a substantial proportion of the youth vote.
But as much as older Americans (like every other nationality and every generation before them) might like to complain about "kids today," we don't have quite the cultural gap that a nation like Japan has.
So what happens when you have a divided population? When it's not so much as question of "right" or "wrong," even in the minds of those who are voting, but more a matter of who arbitrarily gets left out in the cold, north of the Wall. It's not as if America hasn't experienced that kind of thing before...
On the one hand, you have what the up-and-coming generation wants. You have the future. On the other hand, you have what the elders want. Maybe it's the past, but is it really right to expect them to vote against their own interests just because they're on the way out?
What do you think?