India wants to publicly name and shame rapists (Trigger warning)

I've heard from Indian's posting about this issue that the government is shy on this issue because the age difference between the government and the people is the widest in the world. The government is full of people who probably want to reform but they have no ideas on what to do.

First thought: Disocs? Wow...wow...that's...REALLY out of touch.

Second thought: While part of me thinks this is a good step forward, I'm not actually sure if it is actually something that would work. If it does, good. If not, I hope they don't just assume it does.

While there is no reason why these men should be anonymous once they are convicted, giving out their home address is a transparent attempt to try and deflect attention from real reforms to some pointless attacks against targets of convenience.

You first have to make a real effort to identify and arrest the actual offenders. If the government is not seriously interested in doing that, promising to publish names is kind of pointless. And no system will ever work all that well as long as the mindset holds that women who paint their faces, dress flashily, and go to "discos" or nightclubs somehow no longer deserve protection and justice.

missesdash said:

Ah this is a great point. Making the lives of rapists unpleasant doesn't really address rape culture or how they plan to go about investigating and prosecuting crimes in the future.

Gang rape is such a baffling crime to me because it means that the rapists aren't even shamed of the abhorrent behavior. They don't care if their friends or even some stranger on a bus (in this case the driver) see or know what they've done.

I know people often do really horrible things in groups, but I don't think I'll ever quite understand it, this idea that you can go to certain areas and easily find 4-15 men who will engage in something like this.

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It is usually done as an act of intimidation. When gangbangers do it in North America, it is usually territorial intimidation. I'm not aware of the dynamics in India, but it could be sexual intimidation, class intimidation or territorial intimidation or any combination of the three.

AncientEagle said:

You first have to make a real effort to identify and arrest the actual offenders. If the government is not seriously interested in doing that, promising to publish names is kind of pointless. And no system will ever work all that well as long as the mindset holds that women who paint their faces, dress flashily, and go to "discos" or nightclubs somehow no longer deserve protection and justice.

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Yep. As nice as it sounds, I don't think it's the right thing to do, nor do I think it will make much change.

It's not like we're eons ahead, though. Which is, frankly, quite sad.

Are there are any countries which give rapists life imprisonment and/or the death penalty, btw?

I doubt it'll do a damn thing, tbh. Shaming them is passing the buck so to speak, like saying, 'here, harrass them so the government doesn't have to take real action.' Women are not valued, and I don't see that changing with legislation. Discos? Really?

That said, I did find this: http://rt.com/news/delhi-chemical-castration-rape-092/ where new legislation is proposing chemical castrations, a maximum jail sentence, etc. Be interesting to see how it turns out, even though watching the updates just infuriates me. Passed peacefully my ass.

thebloodfiend said:

Yep. As nice as it sounds, I don't think it's the right thing to do, nor do I think it will make much change.

It's not like we're eons ahead, though. Which is, frankly, quite sad.

Are there are any countries which give rapists life imprisonment and/or the death penalty, btw?

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In Canada, you can get a DOS (Dangerous Offender Status) if you do it often enough.

Xelebes said:

In Canada, you can get a DOS (Dangerous Offender Status) if you do it often enough.

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Often enough...?

I'm completely in favor of rape conviction = life in prison with no parole, no exceptions. It's insane we actually let them go.

thebloodfiend said:

Often enough...?

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Which means you get convicted of rape often enough. Which means you have repeated. There may be other circumstances which get you that status if you pair it up with other instances of intimidation to keep the victim or/and their friends quiet.

Xelebes said:

Which means you get convicted of rape often enough. Which means you have repeated. There may be other circumstances which get you that status if you pair it up with other instances of intimidation to keep the victim or/and their friends quiet.

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I get that.

I wanted to know which countries, if any, give life after one conviction. In the US, we do something similar to life in prison after raping "often enough."

You'd think "once" would be "often enough."

In this case a rape and murder conviction should be enough to give all six a life sentence FWIW.

I don't think this means the government should encourage people to destroy the homes of their families, landlords, neighbors etc.

Passing legislation that allows for publicizing rapists' names, addresses, etc. will only teach rapists not to get caught so they don't get humiliated in public.

The only way to stop rape is to teach people--men and women--that RAPE IS NOT ACCEPTABLE. EVER. No one "deserves" to be raped. No one "asks for it." And it is NOT FUCKING ACCEPTABLE.

Until every human being learns that and believes it, rape will keep happening. Punishing rapists after the fact isn't going to change it. It doesn't work now as a deterrent. The only one who has any lasting effects from a rape, even if the rapist is caught and prosecuted, is the survivor. And that sucks.

Excuse the rant. This is obviously a berserk-button topic for me.

I doubt anything will really happen. The offenders will stay in prison forever before it goes to trial and then it'll all be dismissed due to lack of evidence, no witnesses, blah blah blah.

The current social attitude treats women like trash and it's not likely to change unless those in power really, REALLY make an effort to educate and inform the general public and it's not in their basic interests.

When most of the country's police and government are corrupt as all get-out (due to the articles I've been reading on CNN) there's little chance any real change or justice is going to happen. It's like that poor girl in Pakistan being shot in the head - rallies all over the place but has anything really changed?

It'll just be another blot on India's human rights record. Treat the women like chattel and you encourage this sort of thing.

I don't see any change coming, sorry.

regdog said:

This whole thing sickens me. But one thing that really grated me was in the article I read it said she died peacefully. Are you effing kidding me. She had a heart attack, massive organ damage and failure, raging infection as a direct result of the rape and beating. That is not dying peacefully.

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That bothered me a lot too.

I don't believe in the death penalty, but I do believe people like this ought to be locked away for life without parole.

Let's not pretend our countries are paragons of justice when it comes to rape, either.

regdog said:

This whole thing sickens me. But one thing that really grated me was in the article I read it said she died peacefully. Are you effing kidding me. She had a heart attack, massive organ damage and failure, raging infection as a direct result of the rape and beating. That is not dying peacefully.

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Regdog, this blog post addresses your point about her so-called "peaceful" death.

Kimjo: My thoughts exactly.

I think we as citizens of the world owe it to this woman to not forget her story.

missesdash said:

Rape is a very strange crime in that it's one of the few where the action itself is "never acceptable." There are instance, as far as our society is concerned, where it is okay to murder, okay to steal, okay to lie, but not rape.

I think, at this point, the bigger issue is getting people to understand what is rape and what qualifies as consent. Because I don't think there are many people in western society, at least, who think "rape" is acceptable. If you were to simply use the word "rape." But then if you were to ask them whether it's okay to initiate sex with someone who is passed out, the lines begin to blur.

Honestly, I think we need a shift from "don't rape" to "seek consent." It's less ambiguous. I like the consent campaigns because way too many rapists don't consider themselves rapist, but when we make it about consent, it is generally* very clear as to whether or not they received it.



I say "generally" because of things like this. But it's not usually that complicated.

Just some thoughts.

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Good points. I was raped in high school by my best friend's boyfriend, who assumed that I was saying yes because I didn't say no. Despite the fact that he was known to be violent, and I was terrified; I didn't say no because at that point I was afraid if I did, he'd beat the shit out of me. He didn't believe he raped me; neither did I, despite feeling violated and wanting to die, until six months later, when I admitted what had happened to a therapist and to a close male friend, both of whom said I'd been raped. People need to be taught not only that "no means no", but that "no answer means no", "unconscious means no", etc. Unless the word "Yes" is actually said, or something along those lines, the assumption needs to be that the person doesn't want sex, and that proceeding to have sex is therefore rape.

And that link you posted... The so-called "advice columnist's" response sickens me. I don't drink, but if I did and my husband pulled something like that on me, especially after having had it happen before and promising to be cautious in the future, I damn sure would be filing for divorce. Husbands can rape wives too. Having an ongoing sexual relationship isn't an automatic "yes" either.

The thing about it is that solutions we have come to (which themselves need work) are not effective in India, for number of reasons. Attitudes about women's rights, gender-based equality, and sexuality need to be addressed in order to change attitudes about rape. This is happening slowly. In the 30+ years since my adolescence, I have seen women get more vocal about their rights, and society accepting that. We still have a long way to go though.

I am by no means an expert, but having lived there, visited for months at a time, and been involved in NGO work from rural towns to big cities, I have some observations to make:

1. India contains a divided culture. Not only are we divided by state and thus language and customs, but we are divided by caste (which still exists, don't kid yourself), education, by socioeconomic status. While adoption of Hindi as a national language has erased some of the language-based identity barriers, different states are ruled by Ministers who have different ideas. And don't even get me started on how corrupt the government is and is perceived to be, and the same for police.

a. It is not uncommon for a man to have multiple wives, often sisters, in the 'sticks,' where the whole extended family lives together. The idea of women as people on their own both exists and does not simultaneously. They can be loved or put aside; they can speak for themselves or be given to whomever by their fathers or husbands; they may work or be broodmares.

b. It is also not uncommon to find girls being cast aside because they cannot do manual labor and cannot sustain their starving families.

c. In more 'advanced' areas, there is a dichotomy between wanting wives to be successful and thinking they are too loose and Western.

d. Divorce is still hard to get and reflects badly on the woman. I belong to a board where people (mostly women) post about their family situations, and the stories break my heart. Women often complain about being beaten and abused, by their husbands and his family (who often live with the couple). Rape is a frequent issue. Many of these women have good jobs, and some live in this country and the UK. But the attitudes that 'I have to make it work for the sake of my family and their honor' is ingrained.

2. Sexuality has been a forbidden topic to discuss openly for a long time, though those restrictions are beginning to weaken. I was heartened to see a minister of health speaking openly about STDs/HIV and how to prevent them. He spoke about condoms and birth control. You would not have seen that a decade ago.

3. Women's sexuality may be discussed in cities such as New Delhi and Bangalore but it is not an accepted topic in many (most?) households. I was surprised to see an article about how most Indian women never have an orgasm in their lives, and then techniques on how to get there. I was encouraged, until I realized the article was published in the UK in a Western magazine.

EDIT: Added 4. Prostitution is prevalent across the country and with it comes the idea that prostitutes can't be raped.

There is probably more I could say. This is a topic that is dear to me. India needs to go through its own sexual and gender revolution.It needs to come from both its citizens and its government. Its citizens are starting to speak. I am sure, in time, the government will listen and society will leap forward. That is scant comfort for the women abused in the meantime, and for those of us watching from a more civilized standpoint.

regdog said:

This whole thing sickens me. But one thing that really grated me was in the article I read it said she died peacefully. Are you effing kidding me. She had a heart attack, massive organ damage and failure, raging infection as a direct result of the rape and beating. That is not dying peacefully.

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I've been following this story from the start, when I'm able to handle it, and this bothered me too. A lot.

This whole thing just gets right under my skin. The politician who suggested women protect themselves with chilli powder. The rape that went unreported until this story broke. The cultural belief that some women are "asking for it". The fact that this went on for an hour in a bus.

It's just so horrible. And it could have happened to any of us getting on public transport with a friend after a day at the cinema. This woman was completely innocent and completely outnumbered.

KimJo said:

Passing legislation that allows for publicizing rapists' names, addresses, etc. will only teach rapists not to get caught so they don't get humiliated in public.

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This terrifies me. I'm scared that we're going to reach a point where as women we're not just afraid of being raped, we're afraid of being raped and then almost certainly murdered because rapists become that desperate not to get caught.

veinglory said:

While there is no reason why these men should be anonymous once they are convicted, giving out their home address is a transparent attempt to try and deflect attention from real reforms to some pointless attacks against targets of convenience.

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Yeah, it does seem like they're trying to deflect attention. It also seems like they're trying to give in to (or encourage) mob justice, which doesn't address the problem or solve it. The justice system needs to take crimes like this seriously.

(Also, I'm not okay with encouraging vigilante justice in general, but if these guys are jailed, it seems like publicizing their addresses could be more likely to make their families targets, which is definitely not the answer.)

I also question how much of a deterrent it is in the first place. Like others have mentioned, many rapists don't see themselves as rapists. Or, I think they have such poor views of their victims that they may not consider being arrested and outed as a rapist to be a realistic consequence.

regdog said:

This whole thing sickens me. But one thing that really grated me was in the article I read it said she died peacefully. Are you effing kidding me. She had a heart attack, massive organ damage and failure, raging infection as a direct result of the rape and beating. That is not dying peacefully.

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It bothers me, too. Not only because of what you point out, but also because, the last I read, she was fighting for her life and seemed to want to survive. There's no way of knowing how she felt in her final moments, of course. But I feel like talking about her dying peacefully is a subtle way of suggesting that it was for the best.

But it was her life, and she fought for it. I don't think calling her passing "peaceful" acknowledges that.

I must agree with everything vsrenard said. By the way, I am ethnic Indian and the woman passed away in my country (Singapore) so there has been much coverage here, including commentaries and interviews.

While it genuinely made me feel very ill, I believe this is an excellent commentary which speaks volumes of attitudes towards women in India: From the Delhi police: Why women deserve to be raped. By the way, this article was written in April, nine months before the gang-rape discussed here and which outraged the whole world.