- Joined
- Jan 10, 2009
- Messages
- 422
- Reaction score
- 36
Okay. Fair enough but you didn't mention your source and since the OP is from Texas, it seems that U.S. numbers might be more relevant.
My Self Publishing Experience
- Thread starter christwriter
- Start date
- Status
Okay. Fair enough but you didn't mention your source and since the OP is from Texas, it seems that U.S. numbers might be more relevant.
I live in the UK. It didn't occur to me to check where the OP was from: the world doesn't revolve around America, lovely though it is. And as I've already pointed out, the proportions in the numbers you mentioned and the numbers I mentioned are roughly similar, so I'm not sure what your point is.
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2009
- Messages
- 422
- Reaction score
- 36
I never said the world revolved around the U.S. just that the OP lives in Texas. When I posted the link that cited Publisher's Weekly, it stated that 45 of the 300 six figure deals reported were from self-publishers. You said those were from the U.S. and I'm pointing out yes, they are from the U.S. because that is where the OP is from. If she had been from New Zealand or Brazil, my numbers might not have been relevant to him/her. It has nothing to do with whether I think the universe revolves around the U.S.
My point was that your initial numbers were not accurate. You can say they would extrapolate out about the same but there is nothing to back that up. The U.K. is a bit behind in self-publishing mostly because KDP wasn't available there as soon. I expect they will soon have similar numbers. If I had put up numbers without data, I know I would have been called on it.
I don't have numbers on deals given to self-published authors in the U.K, but here is a link that cites their success on the Amazon bestseller lists:
http://www.thebookseller.com/news/self-published-authors-kindle-bestseller-list.html
I think the difference between me and you is that you are looking at all the failed self-published authors and saying "Hardly any make it." I can understand this thinking because maybe out of a 100,000 self-published authors, only a few make significant sales.
Meanwhile I am looking at it from a different perspective and thinking, 15% of the top sellers are self-published. 15% of the 6-figure deals went to self-published authors and I don't consider 15% insignificant and something that is beyond the realm of possibility. I feel that with hard work and good writing, the odds for an individual self-published author increases significantly.
Maybe because day in and day out, I'm in communication with very successful authors who are either still self-published or have accepted deals and are now a mix of self and trade published, I have a more positive outlook.
You, otoh, have a self-publishing review blog, if I understand correctly. You may be seeing the worst of the lot.
Two and a half years ago, I started my self-publishing journey and a bunch of us sent friend requests via FB. At the time, I had one NY Time's Bestseller as my FB friend and he's trade-published. I interviewed him for my blog before I self-published. Since that time, I can count at least 6 who have hit the NY Times BS list. Others have sold in the 100s of thousands of books with their series and might have sold big numbers before NY Times counted self-published books. So, while you are seeing failure everywhere, I'm seeing success. Is it any wonder I'm optimistic?
Well, there's the maths...
To state that "the U.K. is a bit behind in self-publishing mostly because KDP wasn't available there as soon" isn't exactly accurate. Self publishing does not equal e publishing; there's far more to self publishing than KDP; and people have been self publishing in the UK for over 400 years.
From that article:
As I've already pointed out, there's far more to self publishing than KDP. And if you're going to restrict yourself to Amazon-only best seller lists then you're going to ignore many of the better lists.
I realise that wasn't the point you were making: but I think it's really dangerous for us to read articles like that and assume that 15% of ALL best sellers were self publishers, for example. It's misleading, and will lead some of us to make poor decisions for our books and our careers.
See? You've just done exactly what I just warned against: you're assuming that 15% of all best-sellers are self published.
Further, it's not wrong to state that "hardly any [self published writers] make it"; look at the number of books which are self published via KDP and then look at the number which do well. From that same article:
My guess is that a few hundred thousand books have been self published via KDP (but you're welcome to provide more accurate figures). And yet the number of KDP books which have sold over 50,000 copies is only 61. That seems like an abysmally small proportion to me, and I suspect that it's a far lower percentage than the percentage of trade published writers who sell similar numbers.
My bold. I don't see that statement in the article but it's quite possible that it's my poor reading that's at fault here: can you point me to the paragraph where that claim is made, or are you quoting from a different source?
Hell, yes.
I have friends who are purely trade published; I have friends who are purely self published; and I have friends who are published in every which way possible.
I have friends who are hugely successful, and friends who are lucky to sell ten copies a week of all their books combined.
I don't think my outlook is "less positive" than yours: I do think it's more realistic.
Why would reviewing self published books mean I see the worst of the lot? I don't demand that only writers who aren't very good submit their books to me: and the books I do review are the best of the ones sent to me. I don't review the worst ones, as it seems unfair to do so.
I have lost count of the number of writers I've seen go on to great success. This experience is not exclusive to you. I'm glad for your friends.
But I still maintain that only a very small proportion of self published writers go on to achieve great success, and that self publishing is not a good way to go about finding a deal with a trade publisher--which is the point I was making when you started disagreeing with me in this thread.
Which is why I said in my previous to you, "I'm not sure what your point is".
Now. This is meant to be christwriter's self publishing diary thread, I think. We should stop derailling it.
Actually I'm finding the conversation kind of educational. I'm just the chick over in the corner eating popcorn. Don't mind me. 
Though if you want my 2cents...
I think the data pool is too contaminated to draw any conclusions from. There are too many things you can't account for. If you want to count failed self-published books, you can't tell the difference between an author who put out one book and gave up and an author who put out one book and worked their rear off to sell it. Same goes for comparing contracts to self-publishers vs. the unpublished. There's too much data unaccounted for.
What the statistics DO tell you...or rather, tell me, because this is how I read them...is that it's work, either way. If you're going to be successful, it's going to take the same amount of time, probably the same amount of work, and probably roughly similar amounts of money (given that self-publishers sell fewer books but get a bigger piece of the pie). You're going to be rejected by most trade publishers, you're going to have teeny tiny sales as a self-publisher, and if you find success in either you're the outlier, and probably know less about how you got there than the spectators do.
Though if you want my 2cents...
I think the data pool is too contaminated to draw any conclusions from. There are too many things you can't account for. If you want to count failed self-published books, you can't tell the difference between an author who put out one book and gave up and an author who put out one book and worked their rear off to sell it. Same goes for comparing contracts to self-publishers vs. the unpublished. There's too much data unaccounted for.
What the statistics DO tell you...or rather, tell me, because this is how I read them...is that it's work, either way. If you're going to be successful, it's going to take the same amount of time, probably the same amount of work, and probably roughly similar amounts of money (given that self-publishers sell fewer books but get a bigger piece of the pie). You're going to be rejected by most trade publishers, you're going to have teeny tiny sales as a self-publisher, and if you find success in either you're the outlier, and probably know less about how you got there than the spectators do.
And in the WTF category of the day...
I've got an acquaintance who also self publishes. We met because we both wound up involved with the same editor. She liked his methods, I didn't, this was several years ago, I've gone on since then.
Anyway, she found out recently that I've self published my books and, knowing absolutely nothing about how successful I've been beyond a handful of posts on Facebook (none of which mention any numbers) she asked me if I could help her figure out publicity and marketing.
I know nothing about these things, as previously established, beyond posting on Goodreads and mantaining a blog that is interesting in its own right, and making a fuss on facebook whenever I have a new book coming out. So my head goes "Hey, me and she can brainstorm and come up with new, cool ideas and--"
Right about this time she says, "oh, and don't worry. I'll pay you for your time. "
Uh...yeah. No. Thank you. Seriously, I'll meet with you and explain about things like marketing and buying advertising and how (not at all) effective that is, and how twitter feels like a great big author-related circle-jerk, but100131 sales in six months, nice as it feels, in NO WAY qualifies me as a PAID SELF PUBLISHING CONSULTANT. Jesus.
I'm still going to meet and brainstorm with her, because one, she is local, two, she is cool, and three, her only other source of advice is iUniverse/Author Solutions and given her willingness to throw money at things, I personally feel that's a bad idea. It's just BIZARRELY weirds me out.
(And this week has been UTTERLY AWESOME in terms of sales, at least from my POV, but I'm going to wait until my "six weeks sales report" updates on Sunday before I start babbling about how good things were this week. I just needed to vent. GOD that's a weird feeling...)
I've got an acquaintance who also self publishes. We met because we both wound up involved with the same editor. She liked his methods, I didn't, this was several years ago, I've gone on since then.
Anyway, she found out recently that I've self published my books and, knowing absolutely nothing about how successful I've been beyond a handful of posts on Facebook (none of which mention any numbers) she asked me if I could help her figure out publicity and marketing.
I know nothing about these things, as previously established, beyond posting on Goodreads and mantaining a blog that is interesting in its own right, and making a fuss on facebook whenever I have a new book coming out. So my head goes "Hey, me and she can brainstorm and come up with new, cool ideas and--"
Right about this time she says, "oh, and don't worry. I'll pay you for your time. "
Uh...yeah. No. Thank you. Seriously, I'll meet with you and explain about things like marketing and buying advertising and how (not at all) effective that is, and how twitter feels like a great big author-related circle-jerk, but
I'm still going to meet and brainstorm with her, because one, she is local, two, she is cool, and three, her only other source of advice is iUniverse/Author Solutions and given her willingness to throw money at things, I personally feel that's a bad idea. It's just BIZARRELY weirds me out.
(And this week has been UTTERLY AWESOME in terms of sales, at least from my POV, but I'm going to wait until my "six weeks sales report" updates on Sunday before I start babbling about how good things were this week. I just needed to vent. GOD that's a weird feeling...)
Oh dear. She's ripe for plucking.
Tell her that writing another book is the best form of promotion there is. Send her to AW. Warn her against self publishing service providers. Give her a hug. Feed her chocolates. Give her the link to Medie's epic post in Book Promotion.
And give yourself a hug for caring about her, despite all.
Tell her that writing another book is the best form of promotion there is. Send her to AW. Warn her against self publishing service providers. Give her a hug. Feed her chocolates. Give her the link to Medie's epic post in Book Promotion.
And give yourself a hug for caring about her, despite all.
You probably would. And in an exceedingly more professional and courteous manner.
There's a difference between you and Old Hack. To start with, she's not only a member of this community as you are, she's the moderator of this particular forum, as well as a Super Moderator.
You are not a moderator.
Nor, having perused your post history, do you seem at all knowledgeable about publishing of any sort at all.
And having perused your post history, I know that there are quite a lot of differences between you and Old Hack:
1. She's been writing, editing and publishing for a long time.
2. She's an exceedingly well-known and respected expert—to the point that people I've worked with on both sides of the Atlantic praise her.
3. She has expertise and experience enough that she has not only been made an Absolute Sage (which I realize you likely don't know because you've not been here very long) and a Super Moderator, as well as the moderator of this forum.
4. She volunteers her time and considerable expertise, and has been exceedingly patient and courteous with you—to the point that another member PM'd me to take a look at this thread.
5. Just in case you're getting things hind-end-to again, I'd like to point out that I first self-published in 1989. And no, it didn't involve Amazon, and yes, it included an ebook.
6. In future should you wish to take issue with a moderator, you can do it courteously, or you can contact the site owner MacAllister Stone.
Either way, I suggest you might want to cultivate a slightly less obnoxious and aggressive attitude.
Last edited:
I just spotted this.
Oh dear.
There are so many things wrong with the stuff that those people tell you. From the books I've seen which have been published through them, their paid-for services are pretty poor and often completely ineffective. They're overpriced, too, for what they are.
Get your friend here. Warn her it might be tough, but that she'll get good advice.
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2006
- Messages
- 17,875
- Reaction score
- 4,669
- Location
- dunking doughnuts at Dunkin' Donuts
This month has been amazing so far. Twenty five books as of right now. eighteen copies of the sci-fi series total (seven of the first book, eleven of the second) and a very clear sales pattern has emerged. I sell a copy of the first book, twenty four hours later, I sell a copy of the second. This is encouraging.
What is less encouraging is, all of this happened in a week. I made the first book free for two days starting on Sunday, and it jumpstarted the sales of its sequel. I sold four copies. I gave away almost five hundred. Given how long its taken me to start reading the several free titles I've had on my phone for months, it's really likely most of those copies are going unread. Unfortunately the free periods are the ONLY thing I've found to be reliable re: generating sales. I know it's not good for anybody, except maybe the folks getting free books, but I'm really reluctant to give up the only effective tool in my toolbox so far.
I have also been playing with backmatter to see how that influences sales. Advertising upcoming titles has not appeared to be very effective. Advertising existing titles (and linking directly to them) on the other hand does seem to have an effect. The book advertised in the back of the second sci-fi book is moving as well. The number is small enough that I don't feel comfortable going "This is a success" (two copies) but sales on that title have been pretty non-existent. The same thing happened last month, so the experiment will bear repeating.
I think I have learned several things this month:
1. People really like the sci-fi series, and I'd better keep it until I find something more successful.
2. Ebook buyers of indie titles have the attention span of a over-sugared hyperactive cocker spaniel, and they're not going to remember the books of yours they've already read, let alone the release dates for sequels and/or the not-yet existent titles advertised in the back of the book. If it isn't already there, I shouldn't expect anybody to buy it.
3. Free books are effective in an extremely limited way.
I now have to decide what I'll be doing next month. I already know I can't make my initial release date for the next book project in the queue, so I'm probably going to have to do something to maintain momentum.
135 sales in total.
What is less encouraging is, all of this happened in a week. I made the first book free for two days starting on Sunday, and it jumpstarted the sales of its sequel. I sold four copies. I gave away almost five hundred. Given how long its taken me to start reading the several free titles I've had on my phone for months, it's really likely most of those copies are going unread. Unfortunately the free periods are the ONLY thing I've found to be reliable re: generating sales. I know it's not good for anybody, except maybe the folks getting free books, but I'm really reluctant to give up the only effective tool in my toolbox so far.
I have also been playing with backmatter to see how that influences sales. Advertising upcoming titles has not appeared to be very effective. Advertising existing titles (and linking directly to them) on the other hand does seem to have an effect. The book advertised in the back of the second sci-fi book is moving as well. The number is small enough that I don't feel comfortable going "This is a success" (two copies) but sales on that title have been pretty non-existent. The same thing happened last month, so the experiment will bear repeating.
I think I have learned several things this month:
1. People really like the sci-fi series, and I'd better keep it until I find something more successful.
2. Ebook buyers of indie titles have the attention span of a over-sugared hyperactive cocker spaniel, and they're not going to remember the books of yours they've already read, let alone the release dates for sequels and/or the not-yet existent titles advertised in the back of the book. If it isn't already there, I shouldn't expect anybody to buy it.
3. Free books are effective in an extremely limited way.
I now have to decide what I'll be doing next month. I already know I can't make my initial release date for the next book project in the queue, so I'm probably going to have to do something to maintain momentum.
135 sales in total.
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2008
- Messages
- 4,001
- Reaction score
- 477
- Location
- Pacific Northwest, Washington
- Website
- merrihiatt.com
I haven't found this to be true. I receive comments and private messages on Facebook and through my website from readers who know I write trilogies and are waiting for the other books to be released. I've had three people in the last week ask about the second sequel to my first romance trilogy (I had posted on my website that it would be finished by the end of the year, but I didn't make my deadline).
I've had people ask about the sequel, but I'm pretty confident none of them have bought a copy. The sales on the first book and sales on the second are following too hard on top of each other, IMHO. I'm pretty sure the people who asked about a sequel have forgotten about it.
It's troubling. I can't blame it all on the writing because this month, people who buy the first book are consistently buying the second. It seems to be fine when it's right in front of them, but they don't remember about sequels a month or two later.
And I don't get a lot of reader interaction. I've had a handful of positive reviews (the one negative review I got was how the book in question didn't have enough romance in it, and it was still rated three stars) but the readers I have that talk to me read my blog before they read my book, and the habit of contacting me was already well established. And none of them have bought the sequel.
It's frustrating, and I haven't figured out why people don't talk back yet. If I were getting nasty reviews, bad feedback or a lot of returns I'd know where the problem was, but that's not happening at all. I have to assume that the writing isn't bad, exactly, but just forgettable. Which is also really depressing. But it seems obvious if I can catch their attention for one book, they'll buy a few of the others.
Unimportant
No COVID yet. Still masking.
Staff member
Moderator
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Good to hear things are looking up for you, cw! As a reader, I'm a bit wary about trying new authors, unless they've been recommended by a friend. But if the first book is $1.99 or less, I'm much more likely to give it a try. And, if you hook me -- yeah, I'll run out and buy the whole series.
Right now everything except my short story collection is 1.99 or under. And that's because all the shorts are also available for a buck each, and the collection of all four (plus one extra) is 2.99. It's still cheap and it's all in one place.
Another two sales last night. The average for this month so far is almost two a day. It feels very awesome.
Another two sales last night. The average for this month so far is almost two a day. It feels very awesome.
I'm just starting out (after having lived a good part of my life) and I don't know what to think of this thread.
I've focused on the self-publishing route as a good way to start, but I do dream of getting a contract some day. Dream being the key word. I know the odds.
Also, my interests are really diverse, ranging from nature to science fiction to experimental, etc., so I don't know what to think about having to focus on one area so that readers don't get confused.
I've thought about trying to self-publish with pseudonyms, so that works are categorized that way, and I avoid the jumping around effect.
Right now I'm working on a collection of 5 short stories, which are conventional man vs. nature stuff. I think the ideas I have are good. We'll see about the treatment. I think if I could sell a couple of hundred books a month, eventually, I could get by.
It's good to read about other people's experiences. I'd be encouraged by selling a few dozen books a month. It would spur me on to continue writing.
I've focused on the self-publishing route as a good way to start, but I do dream of getting a contract some day. Dream being the key word. I know the odds.
Also, my interests are really diverse, ranging from nature to science fiction to experimental, etc., so I don't know what to think about having to focus on one area so that readers don't get confused.
I've thought about trying to self-publish with pseudonyms, so that works are categorized that way, and I avoid the jumping around effect.
Right now I'm working on a collection of 5 short stories, which are conventional man vs. nature stuff. I think the ideas I have are good. We'll see about the treatment. I think if I could sell a couple of hundred books a month, eventually, I could get by.
It's good to read about other people's experiences. I'd be encouraged by selling a few dozen books a month. It would spur me on to continue writing.
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2009
- Messages
- 422
- Reaction score
- 36
Wow, I didn't think I was rude at all, but whatever. I'm done with this site. It's a great site for those looking for information on agents and publishers, getting critique for queries and such, but it's a terrible source of information for those looking for current information about self-publishing.
I don't think I've ever knocked trade publishing, or known to the world outside of AW as traditional publishing, because guess what? Even agents use that term. (Saw it on a recent agent blog--Rachelle Gardner maybe?)
All I did was point out that more than a handful of people are succeeding in self-publishing and receiving contracts.
I have no idea who Old Hack is, only what has been said about him/her on this site, but honestly, even if she was Stephen King, that doesn't mean she is right about everything, mod or not.
I'm sure this post will be deleted, as will my account which is no big deal to me. Kindleboards is currently the site with the most relevant information for those looking to self-publish. The best blog for information is thepassiveguy.com.
I would suggest you read the experiences of others and draw your own conclusions.
I would suggest you read my experiences with a few grains of salt.
My main motivator behind self-publishing was not an attempt for success. I have issues with depression. Really, really ugly ones. I discovered the hard way that rejection is a trigger for me for reasons that have nothing to do with books. Yes. If trade publication was what I wanted, I should have stuck with it. Yes. I gave up. But I gave up because every time I started querying again, the mental decline got faster.
That's why I said a lot of people would probably call BS on my story. Because my main motive was wanting to get my screwed up psyche back onto safe ground, and at the time I felt it was either self-publish, or stop writing. And it's worked. I'm happy, the pressure is gone, and I can go back to working on my issues, rather than just triggering them.
And I'm working towards success. I just don't expect it. That way I get to be pleasantly surprised when things work.
(...also, did somebody just flounce in my thread? I think somebody flounced in my thread. Do I get e-cookies for that?)
Whatever your motives for self-publishing, you are having success. It may not be as much as you want, yet, but it is success! At least it looks that way from where I'm sitting.
My goals are fairly modest. I need to get writing. Best.
The odds are different for each of us, though, as every writer and every book is different. If you write well your odds of getting that contract are far better than the odds someone else without talent would expect.
The best way to get a trade contract is still to submit in the usual way, though. Self publishing isn't a side-door to trade publishing success, as we've already discussed here.
That's a really ambitious aim, you know. You might achieve that level of sales but most self published writers don't, I'm afraid. Good luck to you, though: I really hope you get there.
Depression is a complete and utter bastard. I've spent many years of my life battling it, and sympathise. You might want to peep into our Conquering Challenges room, where there is a long-running thread about it and a lot of support and encouragement.
And that, right there, makes you a huge success at self pubilshing. I'm so glad you've found a good place for yourself through self publishing: that's really wonderful. Well done!
You deserve a badge, at least. Ha!
Now, give me five minutes to compose my next post.
Oh, bless.
We don't delete posts here unless they're spammy or very rude. Yours is bad-tempered and petulant, but it's neither spammy nor rude so of course it won't be deleted.
We don't delete user accounts either but if you stop logging on then eventually your account will be purged from the system. Your attempt at a flounce wasn't nearly ambitious enough for me to consider banning you for it (you could pick up a few pointers here), so that's probably your best bet.
I once saw someone banned on AW by a moderator (can't remember who) for "being an asshat." That's a direct quote.
I tread lightly here.
But I will say that I think that maybe there was some overreaction to Mary's comments?
Ehh...maybe I'm the second flounce.
Sorry for derailing your thread, christwriter. Best of luck with your writing!
NP. I like derailings. They're amusing to watch and they sometimes come with chocolate.
sarahdalton
Banned
Yeah, it's a shame to have lost Mary. She's given me some really great advice whilst on here.
- Status