Gun Culture

veronie

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I think this is the mentality that I find most disturbing, this unrestrained, misdirected individualism.

If we want to be a part of society, we have to be ready to trust other people.

If you don't trust others, is it no wonder that other people return the favor?

You don't seem to trust many people with firearms, unless they are government approved agents, correct?

You say we should trust people. Do you trust every single person in the world?

I am not walking around suspicious of every person I meet. I start with a default of trust, but I also know the reality that there are bad people in the world, and I know the reality that my own self protection is most important to me, and not as important to others.

And I know that if I do have a home invasion happen, or am in a grocery store where two armed robbers killed two customers (like what happened today in my state), that the police can't get there in two seconds. By the time they do get there, the crime is done.

I do think you're right, that what this really boils down to is a difference of philosophy between a collectivist philosophy, where only government designated people can be trusted with certain power, and an individualist philosophy.

This gets us beyond the scope of this thread, so all I'll briefly say is that I think there are a lot of dangers to the collectivist philosophy where the rights of the individual become sacrificed if it is believed to be in the best interest of the collective. And it's an error to think that an individualist philosophy means that we are not part of a society. We are, it's just a mutually voluntary free society.
 

Williebee

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MOD NOTE:

Yeah, I know. Some folks just can't help themselves.

So, we'll park this one, starting now. Maybe we can re-open it and have the discussion intended in the OP, after the holiday.

--Williebee
 

kuwisdelu

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ETA: I wrote this just before the thread was locked, but didn't get a chance to post it back then. I wish I had, since I thought it had some nice Christmas-y thoughts.

I'm not Christian, but knowing American culture, I'm going to make the assumption (dangerous, I know) that many gun enthusiasts are.

I had a girlfriend who was Catholic whose mother was abusive. Although I'm not Catholic, when my girlfriend was institutionalized after a suicide attempt, I prayed on the rosary she'd given me, which had belonged to her grandmother, hoping it might help bring her back safely.

I didn't become a believer, but the words that stayed with me were from the Lord's Prayer: "forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us."

I can't help but look at the religious right, at the gun nuts, at the many people in this country who are Christian and yet who are so quick to turn to violence, whether real or imagined, and wonder where along the way this sentiment was lost for them.

Guns and violence won't save the world, even if they're necessary sometimes.

It's mercy and sympathy that will save the world. Or else, without them, I don't know if the world would be worth saving.
 

Maze Runner

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A newspaper publishes interactive map, of Westchester and Rockland county, NY gun permit owners. Name, address, etc.

huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/25/new-york-journal-news-gun-owners-westchester-rockland-counties_n_2362530.html

What's everyone think of this?
 
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benbradley

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Publishing someone's home address without their clear consent is morally wrong to me.
If there's outrage to be had here, perhaps it should be with the persons or organizations that gave the paper that information. And that would be ...
... the Journal News requested the names and adresses of local residents who are licensed to own handguns through Freedom of Information Law requests. The paper requested information from the governments of Westchester, Rockland and Putnam counties.
(red addition/emphasis mine)

Pertinent website:
http://www.foia.gov/
As I understand it, one doesn't have to be a news reporter or have any other "special status" to request such information.

Citizens' names and addresses are routinely posted online by government agencies, and not just criminal (and former criminal) offenders. Radio licensees have their names and addresses online at the FCC, including several hundred thousand amateur radio license holders.
 

Maze Runner

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Statements from Journal News Media Group per CNN:

"One of our roles is to report publicly available information on timely issues, even when unpopular. We knew publication of the database (as well as the accompanying article providing context) would be controversial, but we felt sharing information about gun permits in our area was important in the aftermath of the Newtown shootings."

Janet Hasson, Pres & Publ Journal News Media Group

Also from the Journal, "We were surprised when we weren't able to obtain information on what kinds and how many weapons people in our market own ... Had we been able to obtain those records, we would have published them."

Even gun control advocates, like Jonathan Lowy of the Brady Center, don't approve.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2012/12/26/bpr-jonathan-lowry-gun-permits-map.cnn
 

muravyets

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ETA: I wrote this just before the thread was locked, but didn't get a chance to post it back then. I wish I had, since I thought it had some nice Christmas-y thoughts.

I'm not Christian, but knowing American culture, I'm going to make the assumption (dangerous, I know) that many gun enthusiasts are.

I had a girlfriend who was Catholic whose mother was abusive. Although I'm not Catholic, when my girlfriend was institutionalized after a suicide attempt, I prayed on the rosary she'd given me, which had belonged to her grandmother, hoping it might help bring her back safely.

I didn't become a believer, but the words that stayed with me were from the Lord's Prayer: "forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us."

I can't help but look at the religious right, at the gun nuts, at the many people in this country who are Christian and yet who are so quick to turn to violence, whether real or imagined, and wonder where along the way this sentiment was lost for them.

Guns and violence won't save the world, even if they're necessary sometimes.

It's mercy and sympathy that will save the world. Or else, without them, I don't know if the world would be worth saving.
Thank you, kuwisdelu. That's both true and moving.

Next, on the subject of the published list of gun owners, I can't help but be struck by the eruption of outrage at people having their IDs published, when public mouthpieces against gun regulation have been calling very loudly for a public, government-run registry of the mentally ill.

So let me see if I'm following along here on the logic of the issue: Are we to understand that maintaining accessible lists of people's personal contact information is cool if the people are mentally ill, but it's not okay for people who own guns? So, it's okay for the government to track people the gun lobbies tell them to so we can all know if those people are around us, but if the government track gun owners and someone disseminates that information, that's a police state and an invasion of privacy? I see...

Also, are we to understand that the public being told a person has a gun, puts that person at risk? But... isn't that what the gun is for in the first place, to protect them from risk? So what are they worried about? Haven't we just spent all this time since Newtown being told that, if criminals know you have a gun, they'll be less likely to attack you? But now that this paper just said "all these people have guns" now those people are at greater risk from criminals who may come and steal their guns??? Mm-hmm...okay...

Finally, in reference to who is to blame for publishing this information: It's called the Freedom of Information Act, and it is intended precisely to allow private citizens and the media to gain access to information held by the government. It strikes me as yet another point of irony that members of the same group that rails against government secrecy and lack of transparency as evidence of tyranny are now miffed by the exercise of one of the very laws that protects us against that very kind of tyranny. For real, there's no pleasing some people.

Now, myself, personally, I probably would have printed only a list of neighborhoods while keeping the map with the dots of precise locations, rather than print the full names and addresses. Make it be a 2-step process to see the more detailed info. But that would only have been a symbolic courtesy. We can assume the vast majority of people would be too lazy to see the map and the generalized list and put the two together. However, the specific details are right there to be requested by anyone, so meh. If there is someone out there who wants to give a hard time to gun owners, they could just as easily file the same info request this paper did. The gun owners are barking up the wrong tree by blaming this paper for exposing them, in my opinion. To be honest, I'm surprised these people didn't know their information was a matter a government record available for public inspection under the FOIA.
 

Plot Device

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New York newspaper publishes interactve map of all licensed pistol owners in 2 NY counties

The New York Journal-News utilized the Freedom of Information Act to obtain the gun registration records for all (active) pistol-holder permits in the two Lower-Hudson Valley counties called Westchester County and Rockland County. (There is a third county, Putnam, which has not yet fulfilled the FoIA request, claiming burocratic setbacks.) The Journal-News then took that info and used it to publish an interactive map of both of those counties, showing the names, addresses and exact street locations of all citizens who are registered as having a pistol permit.

The outrage has been monumental. I spent over an hour yesterday on the "ground zero" news article that was first published at the Journal-News web site this past Saturday, just reading all the reader comments. After 200 comments, I could not find even one comment that was positive. (That has since changed. The existence of that map has gone viral, and so the comments section is changing tone with anti-gun advocates from all over the USA and possibly outside the US chiming in.)

Anyway, [ETA: CNN has] the best rundown of the whole tale. And IMO the set of reader comments to be found at the bottom are the REAL attraction in this entire sordid matter.

[Link removed]

Newspaper sparks outrage for publishing names, addresses of gun permit holders

By KC Maas and Josh Levs, CNN -- Wed December 26, 2012


(CNN) -- An [Link removed] interactive map [/COLOR][/URL]showing the names and addresses of all handgun permit holders in New York's Westchester and Rockland counties has infuriated many readers since it was posted Saturday on a newspaper's website.

The map, published by The Journal News, allows readers to zoom in on red dots that indicate which residents are licensed to own pistols or revolvers. It had prompted more than 1,700 comments as of Wednesday morning....


... The paper's publisher, Janet Hasson, president of the Journal News Media Group, defended the decision in a statement Wednesday.

"One of our roles is to report publicly available information on timely issues, even when unpopular. We knew publication of the database (as well as the accompanying article providing context) would be controversial, but we felt sharing information about gun permits in our area was important in the aftermath of the Newtown shootings," she said....




One of the more frequent outcries has been "Maybe those reporters need to have their own names and addresses published as well."

And a blogger from Connecticut, Christopher Fountain, has done exactly that in a blog entry called ["Sauce for the Goose." [Link removed] He has now been catapulted to internet fame because of his efforts.


Meanwhile, I have been to over a dozen web sites, reading up about the public reaction to that map. And I have posted the following comment repeatedly at about 5 different web sites so far:

[NPR Link removed.]

Do those so-called "journalists" at the Journal-News have ANY idea how many of those addresses are the non-published/totally-under-the-radar addresses of frightened women who fled with their very lives from abusive relationships, and then after secretly relocating and starting a new life away from their abusers, they bought a gun to protect themselves? Do those "journalists" have any idea how many of those women are now in mortal danger because of the publishing of that map??
 
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thothguard51

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Great, now the crooks will know what houses to hit to steal handguns to use...

I don't care if my neighbors have guns or know that I have them. What I do care about is if the bad guys now have a list of homes where they can get guns, cheap...
 

Maze Runner

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The other angle to this thing, is that by publishing the names and addresses of those who have gun permits, and therefore probably are in possession of guns, legally, you're also pointing out who does not own a gun, again legally. So in a way, it could easily be the people in those counties who are not in legal possession of a firearm who may have the bigger gripe.

I know this is public information, and it is not unprecedented to publish these lists. Though my understanding is that this is the first time it's been done on the internet.
 

Don

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By subraction, the bad guys also have a list of all the homes where they know they won't be met with armed resistance if they decide to break in.

I'm guessing that will be a more popular list.

...and whether those guns would be "cheap" depends on if the owner is home, and if they're properly gunsafed.
 

sulong

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A newspaper publishes interactive map, of Westchester and Rockland county, NY gun permit owners. Name, address, etc.

huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/25/new-york-journal-news-gun-owners-westchester-rockland-counties_n_2362530.html

What's everyone think of this?

I'm imagining a tech savvy black market ring, handing out addresses and wish list, along with a $50.00 now and a $50.00 later sort of deal, to a few hand picked down on their luck locals.

I wonder how much money could be made off this information?
 

Maze Runner

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By subraction, the bad guys also have a list of all the homes where they know they won't be met with armed resistance if they decide to break in.

I'm guessing that will be a more popular list.

Just made this point on the "Gun Culture" thread. Maybe one of the mods will move the related comments to this thread.

I totally understand that it was legal to publish this list, but I really don't see what 'good' purpose it will serve.
 

Williebee

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MOD Note:

Merge occurred. Also, PD's post edited to remove links. It may be something someone can do, but we don't need to reward them with traffic for doing it. Folks can still find it on their own, if they feel so required.

Thanks.
 
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Don

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This story reminded me of this picture, since they accomplish roughly the same thing.

Antigun_Neighbors_zps2e811b27.jpg
 

max929

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Plot, you make a very good point about those trying to escape their past.

I just can't imagine any criminal purposely attempting to enter a house knowing there is a armed resident inside. I would think that potentially getting shot would be a deterrent. If they are a registered gun owner, they probably know how to use the weapon. Also, this list doesn't display if these residence are ex-military (a certain % of registered gun owners are). I would think the last thing a criminal wants to see is a desert storm vet holding a Glock 21.

just my .02
 
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Williebee

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Also, this list doesn't display if these residence are ex-military (38% of registered gun owners are).

Max, this would be one of those statements of fact (that the stickies refer to) that should come with some support, if only to provide further information to others, thanks.
 

max929

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Max, this would be one of those statements of fact (that the stickies refer to) that should come with some support, if only to provide further information to others, thanks.

From my old criminal justice text books, see if I can find the book info and/or a link. If not I will delete the post

Regards
 

Plot Device

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Plot, you make a very good point about those trying to escape their past.

I just can't imagine any criminal purposely attempting to enter a house knowing there is a armed resident inside. I would think that potentially getting shot would be a deterrent. If they are a registered gun owner, they probably know how to use the weapon. Also, this list doesn't display if these residence are ex-military (38% of registered gun owners are). I would think the last thing a criminal wants to see is a desert storm vet holding a Glock 21.

just my .02

There is an outstanding comment at the NPR news link covering this exact question. That comment was a lengthy one from a decidedly left-leaning individual, college educated, living in a very progessive part of the US, and he is also a gun-owner.

He explained in his comment that he at first realized he needed to keep the fact of his gun ownership quiet because his liberal friends were very uneasy about his hobby, and even sometimes hostile about it. He then elaborated that only later on in his life as a gun owner did he learn --from polite acquaintanceships he had with a few police officers, as well as from the wisdom of more seasoned gun-owners he practiced with-- that deliberately advertizing yourself as a gun owner DOES invite burglaries. They explained to him that firmly embedded within the American criminal underworld are those individuals who specialize in constantly securing stolen firearms. And home burglaries are the best way for criminals to acquire them. So bumper stickers and t-shirts which proudly declare one's gun ownership and one's support of the Second Amendment are a bad idea. And thus hiding the existence of your guns is highly advisable.


::ETA::

There are repeated comments found in the "readers' comments" sections of a lot of the news web sites where I am reading about this whole matter where people are claiming that either a) their neighbor/cousin/brother/etc who fought in the Gulf War is on that list, or b) they themselves are such a war vet and so they are also on that list. So either all those (or some of those) commenters are lying, or perhaps whatever paperwork filter was supposed to be in place to shield those war vets from being on that list ... failed.
 
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Maze Runner

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AND is their something to be said for the hypocrisy of these news organizations and bloggers protesting an action while directing traffic to it?

Well, I saw it on CNN, and I wouldn't say they were protesting it, but they did emphasize that it was difficult to find anyone who approved. They did give the web address, and could have reported on it without doing so. Though if you wanted to find it, it wouldn't have been difficult.
 

Smiling Ted

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Save Our (Pink) Guns

Hmmm.

I think the real problem is legally, constitutionally separating responsible gun owners from irresponsible folks with inferiority issues.

I therefore offer the following petition to the White House at whitehouse.gov.

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/support-pink-gun-law/kFtp9vtd?utm_source=wh.gov&utm_medium=shorturl&utm_campaign=shorturl


Because I feel that if you truly need a weapon, you'll use it even if it doesn't give you a "man card."

Take a read. If you agree, sign it. If not, it's a free country...no matter what color our Rugers are.
 

Deleted member 42

A family member was targeted, observed carefully, and then robbed because they knew because of his involvement with the local gun club that he had guns.