NRA Response To Newtown School Shooting

Foley

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I'm cool with police officers in schools, and as I've pointed out on another thread, it's already done so often that I had just assumed it was standard operating procedures in most places. I mean, there were cops where I went to school. There are cops where my husband teaches. There are cops in other area schools.

Monkey, can you think of any other countries where armed police are seen as the norm in schools? This is frankly shocking to non-Americans.
 

veinglory

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However if the idea is that this would prevent any killings, bear in mind an armed security officer was on duty at Columbine at the time of the shooting there.
 

rugcat

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At another site I frequent someone ruminated that a 'database of the mentally ill' and the 'NRA mailing list would have considerable overlap.
I wonder what the overlap is between NRA members and those who play violent video games. More or less than the percentage in the general population?

On the one hand, it seems reasonable to assume that those who like guns and shooting things would be more likely to enjoy and play shooter games.

On the other hand, perhaps those who own guns prefer to actually shoot them rather than indulging in the virtual world.

Just curious.
 

Monkey

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Foley:

I don't doubt that it would be considered shocking. The actual job they do, though, involves being friendly with kids and talking to them, occasionally checking for drugs, breaking up fights, calling down belligerent teens (when a cop says, "STOP!" most teens will. Those who won't get handcuffed, and those who continue to resist get a ride to the station and a call home... sometimes even a fine.) and serving as a deterrent to things like hallway bullying, drugs in school, and skipping classes, and violence. This is why, although I keep re-iterating that cops in schools are common down here, they're not nearly as common in the lower grades as in high schools. I would have no issue, though, with them being in the lower grades, too, because they're there as a protector and another trusted adult for the students who most need that.

Veinglory:

You're right. Like I said, having officers present is not in and of itself going to assure something like this doesn't happen again. We need a multi-pronged approach.
 

Plot Device

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I wonder what the overlap is between NRA members and those who play violent video games. More or less than the percentage in the general population?

On the one hand, it seems reasonable to assume that those who like guns and shooting things would be more likely to enjoy and play shooter games.

On the other hand, perhaps those who own guns prefer to actually shoot them rather than indulging in the virtual world.

Just curious.

My own 2-cent survey of the landscape:

When it comes to my real life and cyber life acquantances who own guns, I personally do not hang out --either IRL on on the web-- with folks who "like shooting things." I hang with people who have a sober and awe-struck caution over how fucking dangerous guns are, and who reguard guns as an important tool to be used in life by responsible people.

I can't claim their seriousness is a majority disposition to be found in the NRA membership NRA, but people who "like shooting things" don't get Christmas cards from me.
 

Foley

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Hi Monkey, despite the cuddly aspect to armed police in schools, I still find it disturbing.
 

kuwisdelu

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I can't claim their seriousness is a majority disposition to be found in the NRA membership NRA, but people who "like shooting things" don't get Christmas cards from me.

I like shooting things.

I'm not a gun guy, but I am disappointing they were out of ammo for the Thompson last time I was at a shooting range.

Hi Monkey, despite the cuddly aspect to armed police in schools, I still find it disturbing.

I'm uncomfortable with cops in schools (but then I'm uncomfortable with cops in general) but I certainly find it preferable to armed teachers.
 

Foley

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I'm uncomfortable with cops in schools (but then I'm uncomfortable with cops in general) but I certainly find it preferable to armed teachers.

I see that as a false dilemma though.

Just my 2c, but what if the discussion was about how to start putting the freaking genie back in the bottle?
 

rugcat

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Foley:I don't doubt that it would be considered shocking. The actual job they do, though, involves being friendly with kids and talking to them, occasionally checking for drugs, breaking up fights, calling down belligerent teens (when a cop says, "STOP!" most teens will.
Yes. That's why they're called "School Resource Officers" in a lot of places. Mostly they are assigned to high schools, at the request of the school, and some of them work at the same school for years and are considered almost part of the staff.

They often have an office and do a great job for the most part. Their primary purpose is to help the kids at school in a number of ways, not to protect the school from outside madman attacks. (Although, of course, they would if necessary.)
 

Pup

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Mandatory registration for mental illness will result in mentally ill people fearing to seek treatment. And this will be true even without the gun issue attached. NOBODY wants to be on some damned "list."

Exactly.

I suspect a great many of these shooters were never formally diagnosed with a mental illness and thus never officially treated for one.

Also how would you determine treatment was not being provided?

Exactly again.

It's a wonderful NRA self-parody, because it's like their logic against outlawing guns. It sounds good in theory, but in real life, outlawing guns wouldn't mean no more guns. It would mean that only those who chose to obey the law, or who got caught disobeying it, would be gunless.

Same way, requiring the mentally ill to register doesn't mean that every mentally ill person will be registered. It would mean that only those who chose to see a doctor for treatment, or who got caught acting crazy enough to be noticed, would be on the registry.
 

kuwisdelu

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Same way, requiring the mentally ill to register doesn't mean that every mentally ill person will be registered. It would mean that only those who chose to see a doctor for treatment, or who got caught acting crazy enough to be noticed, would be on the registry.

And that's not even half of the reason why it's a horrible idea.
 

veinglory

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Indeed. It also does not take into account that as a group, the diagnosed mentally ill are less violent than the "normal" people. So, statistically speaking, we would be taking guns away from the wrong group.
 

shawkins

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As regards the NRA guy's proposal, I think it's a really dumb idea.

My counter proposal would be to overturn the second amendment and completely outlaw private ownership of firearms. I think this probably would eliminate school shootings within a generation or so. I don't see a down side.
 

Unimportant

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mentally ill /= evil.

It's not the mentally ill who ought not to have guns. It's people who are stupid, or careless, or reckless, or irresponsible, or mean, or bad, or evil, or prone to uncontrollable rage, who ought not to have guns.

Interestingly, the majority of gun homicides (crazed shooting sprees and other types) are committed by males. Perhaps guns should be designed so they only respond to XX and not XY chromosomes.
 

blacbird

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Wayne LaPierre is going to be on "Meet the Press" Sunday. Let's hope David Gregory is on his game.

And, dammit, where is Mike Wallace when you really need him?

I suspect LaPierre won't be a guest of Stewart or Colbert any time soon, though.

caw
 

Plot Device

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As regards the NRA guy's proposal, I think it's a really dumb idea.

:Trophy:


My counter proposal would be to overturn the second amendment and completely outlaw private ownership of firearms.

:eek:

(Not safe for work, 2 minutes long, contains one instance of the F-word)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YY5Rj4cQ50

(Full version, 28 minutes, not safe for work)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txayv7ZveXY


I think this probably would eliminate school shootings within a generation or so. I don't see a down side.

:cry:

(Safe for work, 9 minutes long)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkS2BRoCd2I

.
 
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backslashbaby

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Monkey, can you think of any other countries where armed police are seen as the norm in schools? This is frankly shocking to non-Americans.

China has a new law requiring security guards at school because of all of their school stabbings in recent years. I don't think the security is armed with guns, as the Chinese government has controlled guns so long (via totalitarianism originally). But I wouldn't be surprised if they had knives like the men coming to kill their children in their schools.

Hi Monkey, despite the cuddly aspect to armed police in schools, I still find it disturbing.

With all due respect, that shouldn't be our top consideration, I don't think. Expecting a culture where most people have never seen a gun in real life to fully understand a culture that has always, always had guns in nearly every social class (not slaves) is probably unrealistic.

Our reality is shocking to some non-Americans. But that is the history, and this is how far history has gone. We are a young nation. Those from very old nations with totally different histories don't have to completely understand. We have important things to work out, and not shocking non-Americans doesn't have to be top priority.

I see that as a false dilemma though.

Just my 2c, but what if the discussion was about how to start putting the freaking genie back in the bottle?

The genie includes all the guns that are out there. That means it includes keeping our children safe from those guns.

If you (police, preferably) couldn't shoot a gunman with a gun, I doubt we'd be having much of a conversation about gun control. They'd be useless for one of the largest reasons people have -- and historically have had -- them. Unfortunately, bringing a gun to a gunfight is a pretty natural inclination. I wouldn't suggest bringing a pocket knife.

So how do you put the genie back in the bottle, anyway? And how are we not talking about it over here?
 

CrastersBabies

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You know, I'm so worn out over the gun-rhetoric with some of the people on the right. This is what I hear:

"Yeah yeah yeah, tragedy, whatever, anyway, let me tell you about the 2nd Amendment. And, also, if someone wants to kill people, they'll find a way, even if you ban guns. They'll make bombs. Movies! Video Games! 2nd Amendment. 2nd Amendment! 2nd Amendment!"

Even here on this board, you have a poster who creates a thread that begs people to start thinking up solutions and it turns into an US vs THEM deal. And honestly? I don't see the right offering solutions. Instead, they wave their hand, whip out some hand-eye-distraction mojo and what? Hope it all goes away?

I feel like they're incapable of having a discussion without falling back on gun rhetoric. No solutions, just a bunch of fuggin' yammering.

The NRA thing was a joke. I'm more convinced now that these guys are apeshit crazy. The only thing missing is a comment about how Dungeons & Dragons leads people to Satanism. Someone call Tipper Gore.
 

frimble3

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Yes. That's why they're called "School Resource Officers" in a lot of places. Mostly they are assigned to high schools, at the request of the school, and some of them work at the same school for years and are considered almost part of the staff.

They often have an office and do a great job for the most part. Their primary purpose is to help the kids at school in a number of way (Although, of course, they would if necessary.)
In Vancouver they're called 'School Liaison Officers' . In Vancouver, for 65,000 students spread over 17 secondary schools (and probably some elementary schools) they consist of one sergeant and 15 constables.

Taken from the Vancouver Police Department website:
"The common goals of Canadian School Liaison programs are:
prevention of crime and the enhancement of community safety through education
promotion of the police as an accessible community service
elimination of barriers between youth and police
investigation of offences and enforcement of laws
promotion of policing as a career"


  • "The officers are there to:
    deliver safety and crime prevention lessons to
    students, staff and parents.
    • act as a legal resource to students, administrators and staff
    • counsel and talk informally with students
    • work to enhance the safety and security of the school
    • coach teams, join clubs and escort field trips
    • investigate criminal offences relating to the school and its population
    • serve as a liaison between the school and the criminal justice system"

      In the eyes of the public: to check for drugs, and keep an eye on gangs. But I assume that they would attempt to prevent massacres, as well.
 

backslashbaby

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In Vancouver they're called 'School Liaison Officers' . In Vancouver, for 65,000 students spread over 17 secondary schools (and probably some elementary schools) they consist of one sergeant and 15 constables.

Taken from the Vancouver Police Department website:
"The common goals of Canadian School Liaison programs are:
prevention of crime and the enhancement of community safety through education
promotion of the police as an accessible community service
elimination of barriers between youth and police
investigation of offences and enforcement of laws
promotion of policing as a career"


  • "The officers are there to:
    deliver safety and crime prevention lessons to
    students, staff and parents.
    • act as a legal resource to students, administrators and staff
    • counsel and talk informally with students
    • work to enhance the safety and security of the school
    • coach teams, join clubs and escort field trips
    • investigate criminal offences relating to the school and its population
    • serve as a liaison between the school and the criminal justice system"

      In the eyes of the public: to check for drugs, and keep an eye on gangs. But I assume that they would attempt to prevent massacres, as well.

Yeah, are yours armed, too? We've had armed officers in my old school system since 1989. Officer Friendly :) That was high school, but I don't think it struck the kids as more odd than seeing a cop at a bank, or cops with guns standing in line behind you at McDonald's at lunch.

That was right after I graduated. I had a lot of friends from that year, and nobody mentioned being freaked out. Less likely to bring their pot to school with them? Yes, definitely that :D :D