Gun Control Compromise

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Chrissy

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Penn and Teller rock. Just sayin. :D
 

Gale Haut

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The same reason the right to speak freely isn't restricted to auditoriums with no sound system and single page, screw operated printing presses.
Freedom of speech and freedom to carry arms are so vastly different. The vocabulary of a weapon is far less sophisticated than the written word, and it centers around a single point of communication: fear.
 

Ambrosia

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I'm poo-pooing the power of hand guns against the army of the supposed tyrant or a country mad enough to wage an open war on the US, not against unarmed school children.



I think it would be enough if you had to prove that you need a gun. Like, you have a shop in a dangerous area. And if you said "oh, I just collect them, machines built to kill and maim human beings, just like others collect porcelain cats" they would just laugh in your face.

edit: I mean, when I read in the news that "she was a warm, normal woman, not unlike her neighbors" I just want to scream: normal people don't keep a deadly arsenal at their homes!! Come on, has everyone gone insane?
You might be surprised at the number of "normal people" in the US who keep a deadly arsenal at their homes. Having guns does not make a person abnormal. Or an abnormal person normal, for that matter.

I have a legitimate need for a gun where I live. I don't have a gun. I wish I did. I don't have the money for it, nor a way to purchase what I believe would be needed to safely own a gun--a secure place to lock it up. But who is to say a need is legitimate? I am not for more government control. We already have too much government control that has eroded our freedoms here in the US.
 

Plot Device

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Agreed. I just think that there are a lot of people who are legally allowed to own guns who should not. And the fetishism surrounding the second amendment makes that a very dangerous problem.


Then let's look at mental health issues.
 
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William K Elliott

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And the opinion of two Vegas magicians is important...why?

Because (though I do not like them), they just accurately described why the US has the First and Second Amendments.

In the Twentieth Century alone, tyrannical governments have murdered well over 100,000,000 of their own citizens.

Crime has accounted for millions more.

In the US, we believe that the individual has the right (and frankly, the responsibility) to protect themselves and their fellow citizens from anyone who would do them unjust harm.
 

William K Elliott

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Freedom of speech and freedom to carry arms are so vastly different. The vocabulary of a weapon is far less sophisticated than the written word, and it centers around a single point of communication: fear.

Exactly how many men have ever been incited to violence by the display of a weapon?

And how many by the written or spoken word?

In the US, we understand that governments can become tyrannical (Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot). The first line of defense against this is the right to speak freely. The second, is the right to arm yourself.

We also believe that people have an unalienable right to life and liberty. It is an obvious corollary that one has the right to defend one's life and liberty.
 

firedrake

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We're talking about a democratically elected government turning against the people who voted them in?

That is absurd. It's paranoia. It's conspiracy theorists' fodder.

This is the 21st century, people. We're talking about the USA, not El Salvador or Rwanda.

Butl, if y'all want to wear your tin foil hats, stockpile goods for the end of the world and arm yourselves to the teeth then I guess you go right ahead. It's a free country, right?

I'm sure the parents of those children will be glad to know that you're more concerned with protecting yourself against a non-existent threat than ensuring that lunacy like yesterday's never happens again.

Have fun. :)
 

Gale Haut

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"We're not saying you'll be safer if you have a gun, or that you might not get robbed. We're saying something much heavier. We're saying we need the government to be afraid of its citizens. We want our rulers to think carefully about what they try to take from us. And we need to remember they can only take from us what we give them. You see, maybe Mr. Smug [Roger Rosenblatt, journalist, writer, former Time magazine columnist, and outspoken critic of gun ownership] can call the police against a gang-banger, but who does he call against the police?

"We are discussing on a public TV show the idea of the violent overthrow of the country, and it's covered under Free Speech -- how cool is that? We can't trust the government to always be okay with that [to always be okay with Free Speech] we have to trust, well, the Americans all around us."

The government doesn't fear it's people because we are going to shoot at them. This position screams of paranoia. Why is the government coming into our homes to kill us in the first place?

And once the police and government are corrupt enough to the point that we need to be shooting at them, does it really matter what the law says about gun control anymore? Pretty sure once a government has completely turned on its own people, you can start ignoring gun control laws.
 

Don

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ScreenShot2012-12-15at83028AM_zps5140dd7e.png

ScreenShot2012-12-15at83124AM_zpsca99f941.png
The way I read those two charts, the countries with the most firearm-related violence are not those with the most guns per capita. Indeed, the most heavily-armed country, the US, doesn't appear on that list until number 12.

None of the eleven countries that have more firearm-related deaths than the US even appear on that first chart that reports guns per 100 residents. Looking at those 11 countries, it's pretty apparent that the WorldWide War on Drugs has more to do with firearm-related deaths than any other legislation, including gun control laws.

Whatever else the juxtaposition proves, it certainly says nothing about easy access to firearms leading to more firearm deaths, or that restricting access to firearms results in lower levels of firearm deaths. Else the US, Serbia, Yemen and Switzerland would be the top four on the second list as well.

Indeed, only three countries, the US, Switzerland and Canada appear on both lists, and those countries fall toward the bottom of the second list. If anything, the two charts together make a good case for the argument that an armed society is a polite society.
 

RichardGarfinkle

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In the US, we believe that the individual has the right (and frankly, the responsibility) to protect themselves and their fellow citizens from anyone who would do them unjust harm.

Excuse me, while the right to fight back may be present, the responsibility to fight back is not. If we accepted that, then we would say that anyone who did not fight an attacker was partially culpable for the attack. This is a view that leads to some of the most appalling attitudes toward those who suffer.

The words, "Why didn't you fight back?" are heaps of coals loaded on the backs of many who have suffered already.
 

goldmund

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I see now that it's impossible to change anything.

You were led to believe a machine built to kill and maim feeling, living beings is a symbol of freedom.

I can be only sorry for children of USA and hope they stay well.
And I can be only happy that my children live, and will live in a country where owning killing machines as collectibles or means of defense against some tinfoil tyranny or alien invasion is considered insanity.
 

Plot Device

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Completely wrong, as far as I'm concerned.

I am not wrong about how a thread in P&CE works -- you read the OP. You respond to it. I did.



Though I can see how you've made that mistake. The video is just meant to help get the discussion rolling.

Like the parsley on the side of your plate, not really meant to be digested, merely a visual garnish which gets tossed aside along with your used tea bag.



Here's the point of the thread, as was clearly stated in the beginning:

Zoombie:
This is a place for us to try and come up with solutions to the problem of guns and violence in the USA. And there is one.


I agree. But the same tired old arguments of "The Second Amendment is not what you think" got trotted out by several others. So I responded.

Perhaps I should not have responded to that trap of an argument. Perhaps I should have suggested that exact thread-derail not get dragged in here as per the request of Zoombie in his OP. Maybe we need a lock here for a few days.

I personally need to declare I am not being emotional in this thread. I am tired and jaded by the whole gun arguemnt --have been for several months. The kind of jadedness which I speak of is one of yawn-worthy heavy-eyelids and half-asleep indifference.

In the end, I believe that mental health issues are more the problem here with gun violence.



I'm stepping out of the room to take a big deep breath, now. Because I am too emotionally/personally invested in this issue to think straight. Hopefully I won't be locked out when I come back.

I don't have any knowledge of your own personal investment here, Gale. I dearly hope it is not a dread tale of a gunshot injury or death in your family or immediate community. If you have suffered such a travesty, I can only offer my deepest sympathies and condolences.
 

William K Elliott

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We're talking about a democratically elected government turning against the people who voted them in?

That is absurd. It's paranoia. It's conspiracy theorists' fodder.

This is the 21st century, people. We're talking about the USA, not El Salvador or Rwanda.

Butl, if y'all want to wear your tin foil hats, stockpile goods for the end of the world and arm yourselves to the teeth then I guess you go right ahead. It's a free country, right?

I'm sure the parents of those children will be glad to know that you're more concerned with protecting yourself against a non-existent threat than ensuring that lunacy like yesterday's never happens again.

Have fun. :)

Tell that to the victims of the NSDAP
 

Plot Device

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We're talking about a democratically elected government turning against the people who voted them in?

That is absurd. It's paranoia. It's conspiracy theorists' fodder.

This is the 21st century, people. We're talking about the USA, not El Salvador or Rwanda.

Butl, if y'all want to wear your tin foil hats, stockpile goods for the end of the world and arm yourselves to the teeth then I guess you go right ahead. It's a free country, right?

I'm sure the parents of those children will be glad to know that you're more concerned with protecting yourself against a non-existent threat than ensuring that lunacy like yesterday's never happens again.

Have fun. :)


Of course you're right. After all, it can't happen here.
 

William K Elliott

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Excuse me, while the right to fight back may be present, the responsibility to fight back is not. If we accepted that, then we would say that anyone who did not fight an attacker was partially culpable for the attack. This is a view that leads to some of the most appalling attitudes toward those who suffer.

The words, "Why didn't you fight back?" are heaps of coals loaded on the backs of many who have suffered already.

I would never blame a victim, nor would I ever condone blaming a victim for being unable to fight back.

On the other hand, I will blame a man who does nothing save dialing "911" whilst watching a woman get raped and beaten to death.
 

Don

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Agorism FTW!
We're talking about a democratically elected government turning against the people who voted them in?

That is absurd. It's paranoia. It's conspiracy theorists' fodder.
I'm gonna go ahead and Godwin the thread for the second time by pointing out that Hitler gained his position Germany all square and legal like courtesy of the election of 5 March 1933... in a democracy.

Not so absurd when you look at historical precedence. Sometimes paranoia is justified.
 

William K Elliott

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Oh puleeze, not that again.

So the USA today is in the same situation as post WW1 Germany?

Do you really think it can't happen again? Are you really so high-minded to think that the people can not be duped again? So certain that you are willing to let the government be armed, but not the citizenry?
 

William K Elliott

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That attitude isn't helping either.

Can you honestly say that you would not blame a person for failing to help your child when it is obvious your child's life is in danger? Who does nothing save watch them get run over by the train? Who does nothing but watch as the assailant beats and rapes them? Who only says, "bah, that's the cops' job, I have better things to do."
 
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