Gun Control Compromise

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Alpha Echo

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Diana you're not really using the term 'statistically significant' in the correct manner.

And the problem is not 'people murdering kids at school' the problem is mass killings. I believe there were eight this year. It's not about the body count. It's about a person deciding to walking into a public place and murder as many people as possible.

I agree with this entirely. And the thing is, whether those guns were accessible or not, someone who wants to do this is going to do this. Period. It's not his mom's fault for owning guns and teaching him to use them. We canNOT comment on her parenting abilities because we. do. not. know. We weren't there. Whether Lanza is mentally ill, mentally unstable, or just plain evil doesn't change the fact that we don't know. We weren't there. Stop blaming her just because she's an available scapegoat.

I didn't read the whole thread, so this was kind of just a rant. But I did see a few posts lamenting about her parenting skills, or lack thereof.

We have to figure out how our nation is breeding these mass killers. Unintentionally, sure, but we're breeding them nonetheless. Something is wrong, and it goes deeper than Adam Lanza's mental status, his mother's parenting abilities, or even our access to guns. IMO.
 

Williebee

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And the problem is not 'people murdering kids at school' the problem is mass killings.

Yeah, I kind of missed the obvious missing piece. (Still blaming lack of sleep. Probably will after the nap, too.)

That said, I agree that we are wise to be cautious, rather than led by emotion.

"We/They are coming for the guns." isn't a helpful position, regardless of which side of the sentence a person is on.

"The guns" are just a part of the problem. And the solution can't be based solely on the founding fathers, or money, or fear.
 

Xelebes

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As Max pointed out, the 2nd Amendment has been perverted. What is with individual ownership of guns? Why can't you go to your local armoury and practice with the weapons-of-war there instead of keeping your arsenal in your basement and practicing in your own backyard?

It is quite apparent the NRA has perverted the 2nd Amendment to mean that gun companies can now market itself to individuals with peddled conspiracy theories and mongered rumours. The gunsmiths, shotmillers* and arms-dealers and their faceless corporate financiers get to make a rich profit with simple fearmongering.

* my term for ammo manufacturers.
 

Teinz

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To all those with teaching experience I would like to ask a practical question.

If teachers had guns in school which would be more likely:

1. That the teacher would be called upon to use the gun to protect the students.

2. That a student would get hold of one of the guns and by accident, mischance, or desperation kill or injure themselves or others.

Option nr. 2 would be most likely. The odds of a madman storming in, guns blazing are slim to begin with. Even in the US.

What are the odds of me being able to pull the trigger? Hmm, all men think about those kinds of situations and we all want to be heroes. It doesn't work that way. What was that percentage of American soldiers unable to fire a shot directed at the Germans, back in WWII? And those people were trained and knew they were going to war.
 

folkchick

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Option nr. 2 would be most likely. The odds of a madman storming in, guns blazing are slim to begin with. Even in the US.

I agree, and also people are forgetting that if guns were meant to protect us entirely, then why was this kid able to shoot his mom? Why wasn't she able to protect herself if she had all those guns and was trained, etc.?

It's nice to think that we can always be protected just by having a gun, but it doesn't always work out the way we plan.
 

Gretad08

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Option nr. 2 would be most likely. The odds of a madman storming in, guns blazing are slim to begin with. Even in the US.

What are the odds of me being able to pull the trigger? Hmm, all men think about those kinds of situations and we all want to be heroes. It doesn't work that way. What was that percentage of American soldiers unable to fire a shot directed at the Germans, back in WWII? And those people were trained and knew they were going to war.

I just told this story recently in another thread, but it applies here too.

My husband has always said he wouldn't hesitate to shoot someone if they came in our house. Well, several years ago, that happened. He had the gun in his hand, pointed at the guy, and absolutely couldn't pull the trigger.

I'm so thankful he didn't shoot. He said his mind started racing with questions; "Who is this guy?" "If I shoot, will it go into my neighbor's house and hurt them?" "Is there anything else I can do but shoot?" etc.

His instinct was to slow the situation down, and get answers. That being said, had the guy come in with a gun pointed at us, or been hurting someone, there would have been no hesitation at all.
 

muravyets

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...

I hope I didn't offend anyone. And, yes, I do truly understand that for the families involved, it is no statistical anomoly, but for the rest of us...we need to try and see that it is.
Except that it isn't. Mass shootings in the US in 2012 alone courtesy of the Washington Post.

I'll admit I do not like many things about your opinion, but the possibly the thing I like least about it is that it doesn't jibe with the facts. Denying a problem exists is not the same as solving it.
 

raburrell

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I had this conversation with my mother the other day - she was a high school teacher for 30+ years, retiring in 2006. Her comment was that her school used to be the place she felt safest. And that now she'd be scared every day.

I did ask her about the teachers-having-guns thing. The short version (apart from her having about as negative a reaction to the idea of educators having to take on a SWAT role as I did), was that given the number of things that'd been stolen out of her classroom over the years, it was approximately the stupidest idea she'd ever heard.
 

firedrake

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Except that it isn't. Mass shootings in the US in 2012 alone courtesy of the Washington Post.

I'll admit I do not like many things about your opinion, but the possibly the thing I like least about it is that it doesn't jibe with the facts. Denying a problem exists is not the same as solving it.

I'm still having trouble with the whole reducing the sad, tragic event to a 'statistical anomaly' thing.
 

muravyets

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To all those with teaching experience I would like to ask a practical question.

If teachers had guns in school which would be more likely:

1. That the teacher would be called upon to use the gun to protect the students.

2. That a student would get hold of one of the guns and by accident, mischance, or desperation kill or injure themselves or others.

In short would the guns create more or less safety for the students?

The idea of having a gun available when you need it means that the gun has to be around and accessible at all times. That means that an instrument to create extraordinary safety can a creator of ordinary danger.

Harder question: Part of the story we want to tell ourselves in these circumstances is that we would rise up to heroism and protect against the extraordinary danger. How much does that story blind us to the real commonplace dangers we might be creating in order to face that far rarer danger.
I'd bet on option 2 based on the US statistics for both intentional and accidental shootings in family homes that have guns.

As for your second question, my biggest problem with so many of the arguments against gun control or the arguments in favor of more guns (two different viewpoints), is that much of their foundation seems to be fantasy. Stories people tell themselves of great crises and heroic responses.

In reality, escaping a crisis is far more effective at saving lives than shooting back. The vast majority of people who avoid being killed in mass shootings are those who are able to run away or hide. Why are we talking about "standing our ground" as it were, when we should be talking about designing schools with secure escape routes, evacuation plans, alarm systems direct to local police, and about educating our kids about ducking and covering and seeking exits and recognizing danger?

As I said a while ago on this topic, in a reality where the vast majority of personal violent crimes, especially against women, are going to be up-close, hands-on, surprise blitz attacks, why are we talking about guns when we should be talking about hand-to-hand defense training, pepper spray and knives?

It seems to me that we are living a dream and ignoring reality. Not only are we ignoring the real inherent danger of the preferred tool -- guns -- we are also ignoring the reality of the measures and practices that would actually have a chance of keeping us safer and giving us more control over how we respond to danger.

It's very frustrating.
 

Williebee

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Option nr. 2 would be most likely. The odds of a madman storming in, guns blazing are slim to begin with. Even in the US.

What are the odds of me being able to pull the trigger? Hmm, all men think about those kinds of situations and we all want to be heroes. It doesn't work that way. What was that percentage of American soldiers unable to fire a shot directed at the Germans, back in WWII? And those people were trained and knew they were going to war.

I've already addressed Richard's question a couple of times. Just the numbers of kids, teachers and hours in the day themselves indicate the chances of an accidental misfire in a school would be greater than the chance of an intentional "save the day" shot.

But to add to the point quoted above, I would again reference the nine people injured in New York City in August were all shot by trained law enforcement professionals reacting to a lone gunman.
 

Diana Hignutt

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Except that it isn't. Mass shootings in the US in 2012 alone courtesy of the Washington Post.

I'll admit I do not like many things about your opinion, but the possibly the thing I like least about it is that it doesn't jibe with the facts. Denying a problem exists is not the same as solving it.

Okay, so we take the whole US population, which is what, about 300,000,000 and the number of people murdered in mass shootings, not counting the shooters (because, well, fuck them) in your list was 81.

So. 300,000,000 divided by 81. The odds of being killed in a mass shooting in the US in 2012 are 37,037,037 to 1. You just proved my point for me. Your numbers. You want laws to be changed because of an event so unlikely, you'd be better off, making laws to try and prevent multiple lightning strikes on the same person.

I'm sorry, if I sound cold and callous. I can not be controlled by emotional manipulation anymore. My loss, no doubt.

ETA: It jibes with the facts you supplied...
 

Maze Runner

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I agree with this entirely. And the thing is, whether those guns were accessible or not, someone who wants to do this is going to do this. Period. It's not his mom's fault for owning guns and teaching him to use them. We canNOT comment on her parenting abilities because we. do. not. know. We weren't there. Whether Lanza is mentally ill, mentally unstable, or just plain evil doesn't change the fact that we don't know. We weren't there. Stop blaming her just because she's an available scapegoat.

I didn't read the whole thread, so this was kind of just a rant. But I did see a few posts lamenting about her parenting skills, or lack thereof.

We have to figure out how our nation is breeding these mass killers. Unintentionally, sure, but we're breeding them nonetheless. Something is wrong, and it goes deeper than Adam Lanza's mental status, his mother's parenting abilities, or even our access to guns. IMO.

How would they do it? If they can't get their hands on guns?

Agree we have to look at causative factors, long term. But in the meantime, accessibility and funding mental health programs seem to me to be # 1 & 2 priorities.
 

missesdash

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I agree with this entirely. And the thing is, whether those guns were accessible or not, someone who wants to do this is going to do this. Period. It's not his mom's fault for owning guns and teaching him to use them. We canNOT comment on her parenting abilities because we. do. not. know. We weren't there. Whether Lanza is mentally ill, mentally unstable, or just plain evil doesn't change the fact that we don't know. We weren't there. Stop blaming her just because she's an available scapegoat.

I didn't read the whole thread, so this was kind of just a rant. But I did see a few posts lamenting about her parenting skills, or lack thereof.

We have to figure out how our nation is breeding these mass killers. Unintentionally, sure, but we're breeding them nonetheless. Something is wrong, and it goes deeper than Adam Lanza's mental status, his mother's parenting abilities, or even our access to guns. IMO.

I disagree that we can't comment on her parenting abilities. He used her guns.

And I feel there is a strange denial that any of the obvious factors could possibly have anything to do with what happened. If he'd cured cancer and world hunger, we'd have no problem praising his mother for what she must have done right. I get it's a sensitive subject, but I don't think it should be entirely off the table.

But I think you're on to something when you speak about a culture of entitlement. Just look at the bulk of the perpetrators: young white males. Arguably the most privileged group in the country.
 

Xelebes

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But I think you're on to something when you speak about a culture of entitlement. Just look at the bulk of the perpetrators: young white males. Arguably the most privileged group in the country.

I did some research. These mass murders are spread evenly by race. It's just that the news cycle only casts its light on murders that take place in privileged areas. Clackamas Shooting had a relatively poor white guy - it struggled to make the news. Fort Hood had a Palestinian shoot up the place.

It's mostly men who perpetrate the spectacle suicides. Women tend not to do it.
 

vsrenard

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Diana, it would be foolhardy for us to dismiss the idea of changing gun laws just because the law of averages says most people won't die in a mass shooting. Why?

1. We strive to be a better nation, and in this case, one that is safe for kids at school. The magnitude of a tragedy's horror can outweigh the numbers.

2. It doesn't behoove us to refuse to learn from past events. I work at a national lab. As you can imagine, we have strict security-based restrictions. For example, if a suspicious looking package shows up, we are to move away and call security and by all means, don't open it. Given the amount of legitimate mail that passes through the facility every day, it's unlikely we'll get something lethal. But, when that suspicious package comes in the mail, we re-evaluate all of our procedures to see if we could have stopped the package from getting as far as it did.

I expect no less to happen from this tragedy. And for once, I'd like to see us implement some changes.
 

RichardGarfinkle

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Okay, so we take the whole US population, which is what, about 300,000,000 and the number of people murdered in mass shootings, not counting the shooters (because, well, fuck them) in your list was 81.

So. 300,000,000 divided by 81. The odds of being killed in a mass shooting in the US in 2012 are 37,037,037 to 1. You just proved my point for me. Your numbers. You want laws to be changed because of an event so unlikely, you'd be better off, making laws to try and prevent multiple lightning strikes on the same person.

I'm sorry, if I sound cold and callous. I can not be controlled by emotional manipulation anymore. My loss, no doubt.

ETA: It jibes with the facts you supplied...

You have to consider what the event space is. What events are you measuring the probabilities of?

Statistical significance is relative to events and outcomes.

So compare the odds you mentioned above with the odds of being able to succeed in shooting back without causing more damage.

What space are you using?
Is it the space of gun related violence, the space of all human actions, the space of all events on Earth, the space of all events that happen anywhere in the universe?
 

muravyets

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Okay, so we take the whole US population, which is what, about 300,000,000 and the number of people murdered in mass shootings, not counting the shooters (because, well, fuck them) in your list was 81.

So. 300,000,000 divided by 81. The odds of being killed in a mass shooting in the US in 2012 are 37,037,037 to 1. You just proved my point for me. Your numbers. You want laws to be changed because of an event so unlikely, you'd be better off, making laws to try and prevent multiple lightning strikes on the same person.

I'm sorry, if I sound cold and callous. I can not be controlled by emotional manipulation anymore. My loss, no doubt.

ETA: It jibes with the facts you supplied...
No, it doesn't. And you do sound cold and callous, actually. At least your argument does. It also sounds self-indulgent, to be blunt about it. That assertion that you won't be controlled by emotional manipulation, as if the rest of us are mere puppets being jerked around by sad stories, is neither especially factual nor especially effective in suggesting your vision on this is clearer than other people's. Rather it suggests a level of denial, to one who is looking for a way to be sympathetic to you on this.

I gave you facts that show that, in just one year alone, mass shootings are a common occurrence in the US. And that doesn't even touch on the shootings that are not counted as "mass shootings" -- all the hundreds, maybe thousands, of shootings both fatal and non-fatal that happen in the US in the course of crimes, fights, domestic violence, police actions, and of course, accidents.

Mass shootings are shocking because they are a sudden, large burst of terror, but also because they highlight the lack of gun safety in this country. But proportionate to the nature of the event, they are not rare at all. They may be rare compared to all the other events of gun-violence, but compared to themselves -- to similar events globally and through time -- mass shootings in the US are not rare at all.

They're like fancy-colored lobsters. You know, the blue, orange, pink, parti-colored, and even white ones that have been popping up in record numbers in the Atlantic recently. Such colors have always occurred among lobsters, but in past years they were very rare. Theories suggest their increasing commonness is due to loss of common predators of lobsters -- cod, for instance -- which may have kept down the instance of odd lobsters because they would be more visible and first to get caught and eaten.

The sudden prevalence of formerly rare lobsters is not a sign that there's anything changing about lobsters, but it is a sign something might be changing in the ocean.

Likewise, mass killings have occurred throughout human history, with a variety of weapons. But the way they are happening now in the US, and the rate at which they are happening in the US over the past several years, is not normal for an event like mass killings. We need to look at why this happens here and how to make it become more rare, as it should be.

You can tap dance over those numbers all you like to pretend it ain't no big thing in the statistical larger picture. I stand by my argument based on such data, and I reject your argument as neither factual nor insightful.
 

Diana Hignutt

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No, it doesn't. And you do sound cold and callous, actually. At least your argument does. It also sounds self-indulgent, to be blunt about it. That assertion that you won't be controlled by emotional manipulation, as if the rest of us are mere puppets being jerked around by sad stories, is neither especially factual nor especially effective in suggesting your vision on this is clearer than other people's. Rather it suggests a level of denial, to one who is looking for a way to be sympathetic to you on this.

I gave you facts that show that, in just one year alone, mass shootings are a common occurrence in the US. And that doesn't even touch on the shootings that are not counted as "mass shootings" -- all the hundreds, maybe thousands, of shootings both fatal and non-fatal that happen in the US in the course of crimes, fights, domestic violence, police actions, and of course, accidents.

Mass shootings are shocking because they are a sudden, large burst of terror, but also because they highlight the lack of gun safety in this country. But proportionate to the nature of the event, they are not rare at all. They may be rare compared to all the other events of gun-violence, but compared to themselves -- to similar events globally and through time -- mass shootings in the US are not rare at all.

They're like fancy-colored lobsters. You know, the blue, orange, pink, parti-colored, and even white ones that have been popping up in record numbers in the Atlantic recently. Such colors have always occurred among lobsters, but in past years they were very rare. Theories suggest their increasing commonness is due to loss of common predators of lobsters -- cod, for instance -- which may have kept down the instance of odd lobsters because they would be more visible and first to get caught and eaten.

The sudden prevalence of formerly rare lobsters is not a sign that there's anything changing about lobsters, but it is a sign something might be changing in the ocean.

Likewise, mass killings have occurred throughout human history, with a variety of weapons. But the way they are happening now in the US, and the rate at which they are happening in the US over the past several years, is not normal for an event like mass killings. We need to look at why this happens here and how to make it become more rare, as it should be.

You can tap dance over those numbers all you like to pretend it ain't no big thing in the statistical larger picture. I stand by my argument based on such data, and I reject your argument as neither factual nor insightful.

Then you will remain incorrect. Your insistance is hardly less than mine. I used your numbers.

You wanna make it more rare? Ban heroizing the military for starters. Ban violent movies and games. Mandate lithium in the fucking water supply. You'll get want you want, but will you still want it?

And what of the ten Afghan kids we (the US) killed the other day, should we do something about that too? I have some ideas...
 

robeiae

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A good New Yorker article details somewhat the process that made the 2nd Amendment morph relative recently (from the mid 1970s) into what you have today.

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/comment/2012/12/jeffrey-toobin-second-amendment.html


Why am I not surprised to find Antonin Scalia at the centre of this mess? And so much for originalism then.
I don't think it's a particularly good piece, at all. In fact, it's ideological opinion masquerading as analysis.

Note how Toobin opens: "For more than a hundred years, the answer was clear." Why not "two hundred"? Or "nearly two hundred"? Toobin sins by omission.

The meaning of the second was clear at the time of Ratification and the passage of the Bill of Rights: it was seen as an individual right. There's no "trumping" by the militia.

The issue--at the time--was the fear of citizens being disarmed by the government. Thus, the militia needed to be one that existed apart from all state controls. Patrick Henry pointed this out by noting that if arms were kept in a common magazine, the government could easily disarm the militia in one fell swoop, as it were. Thus, the Second was intended to preserve the individual's right to keep arms.


That said, the Second was never about walking around town with a concealed weapon, or keeping a gun under one's pillow to shoot a burglar.
 

muravyets

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Then you will remain incorrect. Your insistance is hardly less than mine. I used your numbers.

You wanna make it more rare? Ban heroizing the military for starters. Ban violent movies and games. Mandate lithium in the fucking water supply. You'll get want you want, but will you still want it?

And what of the ten Afghan kids we (the US) killed the other day, should we do something about that too? I have some ideas...
You didn't use my numbers. You twisted my numbers to fit your own entirely arbitrary pre-designated but vaguely defined base standard. I'm not going to continue to debate this point. To me, it is nonsense and, frankly, while it was edgy and discomforting when simply presented, the defenses of it are starting to cross the line into being offensive for me. This is because of what I'm seeing as an increasingly high-handed and dismissive response towards someone who disagrees with your argument.

RichardGarfinkle asked for context. I pointed to some facts as a basis. If you want to support the claim that killings like this are statistically not significant, you're going to have to do better than you are at present. You can start with what you've been offered by us. I don't think your attempts so far have done the trick. But until something more substantive does appear, I'm done with this. My response already posted is all the response this argument is likely to get from me, and I don't want to devolve into exchanging insults over it.

ETA: Oh, and in regard to the Afghani children who were killed, yes, we should do something about that. If you'd read my posts in that thread, you should have been able to guess that I would think so. I suspect, however, our ideas on what should be done will either be very different, or they'll be exactly the same but our reasoning on it will be so at odds there'll be no point trying to discuss it.
 

Williebee

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"cold and callous"?
Me, I have no problem with the cold and callous POV. We need that viewpoint as much as we need emotional and caring, if we are going to effect any kind or useful or lasting change.

Cold and callous is there is only so much we can do to prevent murder and violence in our society. Cold and callous also means that an individual's "right" to weaponize themself should not outweigh the "right" of their neighbors to gather in public venues in relative safety. Cold and callous means that an opportunity for commerce should not be allowed to outweigh the public good, no matter whose pocket it "picks".
 

Alpha Echo

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How would they do it? If they can't get their hands on guns?

Agree we have to look at causative factors, long term. But in the meantime, accessibility and funding mental health programs seem to me to be # 1 & 2 priorities.

There's always a way to get your hands on a gun. Someone who wants one will find a way whether their parents have them or not.

Take illegal drugs. Many parents do not keep them in a locked box at home, yet many kids find their way to them eventually. Even if for a single test run.

And I feel there is a strange denial that any of the obvious factors could possibly have anything to do with what happened. If he'd cured cancer and world hunger, we'd have no problem praising his mother for what she must have done right. I get it's a sensitive subject, but I don't think it should be entirely off the table.

Well, I disagree that we'd automatically praise the mother for her son's job well done. I don't think that when I hear about people that do good things. I think, "Wow, what a terrific/intelligent/kind/thoughful/fill in the adjective person."

I did some research. These mass murders are spread evenly by race. It's just that the news cycle only casts its light on murders that take place in privileged areas. Clackamas Shooting had a relatively poor white guy - it struggled to make the news. Fort Hood had a Palestinian shoot up the place.

It's mostly men who perpetrate the spectacle suicides. Women tend not to do it.

I don't think you have to be a well-off white male to feel entitlement. I think people of all classes and all races have come to feel that way in our Nation. Strictly my opinion based on what I've seen and heard, but I stand firmly by it.
 

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This is not my discussion, me being a furriner and all...

"Furriner"? From you, Aruna?

I have a quote box ready to reply to Graylensman, and I haven't read past aruna's post, but I'm stopped in my tracks.

"Furriner" is a trope that is really rude to use to Americans, in case there is just some cultural misunderstanding going on. It is mocking and largely inaccurate.

It seems to be referencing my feelings, explained earlier, and I'll note in my defense that I'm an Oxford-educated, well-traveled American who speaks 3 languages and is studied in another through the literature level. I've lived in Eastern Europe and Costa Rica. I certainly don't have a thing about 'furriners'.
 
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