Welcome to the AbsoluteWrite Water Cooler! Please read The Newbie Guide To Absolute Write

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 76

Thread: Would you vote for a transhuman?

  1. #1
    Vengeful Crystaline Hawk 45C AW Moderator Zoombie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    The Sunder
    Posts
    39,008

    Would you vote for a transhuman?

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/04/su...-you.html?_r=0

    In a future presidential election, would you vote for a candidate who had neural implants that helped optimize his or her alertness and functionality during a crisis, or in a candidates’ debate? Would you vote for a commander in chief who wasn’t equipped with such a device?


    If these seem like tinfoil-on-the-head questions, consider the case of Cathy Hutchinson. Paralyzed by a stroke, she recently drank a canister of coffee by using a prosthetic arm controlled by thought. She was helped by a device called Braingate, a tiny bed of electrodes surgically implanted on her motor cortex and connected by a wire to a computer.
    Transhumans are coming and, as a 22 year old, I'm going to be among the people voting for them, becoming them and generally dealing with the issues brought up by super-empowering technology like this.

    Personally, I think at the end of the day, it still matters more what a person's stance on freedom and individual rights is than whether or not they have a head-computer.

    But that's just me.

    And even if you don't think that people will ever go beyond just replacing broken limbs, this is still very exciting for disabled people everywhere.

    Then, of course, the question continues to a more personal note: How far will YOU go?

    As the article puts it...

    Which leads us to the crucial question: How far would you go to modify yourself using the latest medical technology?


    Over the last couple of years during talks and lectures, I have asked thousands of people a hypothetical question that goes like this: “If I could offer you a pill that allowed your child to increase his or her memory by 25 percent, would you give it to them?”


    The show of hands in this informal poll has been overwhelming, with 80 percent or more voting no.


    Then I asked a follow-up question. “What if this pill was safe and increased your kid’s grades from a B average to an A average?” People tittered nervously, looked around to see how others were voting as nearly half said yes. (Many didn’t vote at all.)


    “And what if all of the other kids are taking the pill?” I asked. The tittering stopped and nearly everyone voted yes.
    Hmmm...
    2068 Series: On Hiatus!
    Shard Series: On Hiatus

    Untitled Furry Thing: 65k/XXXk

    The Bracewell Parable: Done!

    Read my blog: Quantum Spin Plates

    BUY MY BOOK HERE!

  2. #2
    volitare nequeo AW Moderator veinglory's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    right here
    Posts
    27,008
    I find the very idea of transhumans purely theoretical and extremely tedious. It will be some time before implants do anything more than compensate of illness or disability.

    IMHO exceeding the normal range of human cognitive ability will be harder than transhuman meme-fans think, and probably cause more problems than it is worth, at least for the next few centuries.

    Thus I put this question in the same 'who cares' file as 'what if we cloned Hitler' and 'what if I traveled back in time and killed my grandfather'.

  3. #3
    Banned Opty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    The 'Noog
    Posts
    3,960
    I'd only vote for them if they could shoot laser beams from their eyeballs.

    Quote Originally Posted by article View Post
    Which leads us to the crucial question: How far would you go to modify yourself using the latest medical technology?

    Over the last couple of years during talks and lectures, I have asked thousands of people a hypothetical question that goes like this: “If I could offer you a pill that allowed your child to increase his or her memory by 25 percent, would you give it to them?”

    The show of hands in this informal poll has been overwhelming, with 80 percent or more voting no.

    Then I asked a follow-up question. “What if this pill was safe and increased your kid’s grades from a B average to an A average?” People tittered nervously, looked around to see how others were voting as nearly half said yes. (Many didn’t vote at all.)

    “And what if all of the other kids are taking the pill?” I asked. The tittering stopped and nearly everyone voted yes.
    That response is funny considering how opposed and even outraged most people seem to be regarding performance-enhancing drugs (steroids, blood-doping, etc.) being used by athletes.

    Would they be okay giving little Jimmy some D-Bols so he could throw a great game and be the star quarterback? If not, then why is it okay to give him a pill so he's valedictorian?

  4. #4
    Probably not. Because, as I've noted before, most 'transhumanists' deal with the how and not the why. Plus most of the transhumanists I've encountered have made it clear we mundanes will not be first class citizens.

    You're one of the few, Zoombie, that won't regard people like me the way Voldemort regards Muggles.
    No person is your friend who demands your silence or denies your right to grow. - Alice Walker

    Dominant Desires: Ropes and Roses Smashwords Amazon Barnes & Noble Sony Kobo

    Stewardess - an erotic free read Smashwords Barnes & Noble Kobo

    My website - Romantic Heretic

  5. #5
    Vengeful Crystaline Hawk 45C AW Moderator Zoombie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    The Sunder
    Posts
    39,008
    Quote Originally Posted by Romantic Heretic View Post
    Probably not. Because, as I've noted before, most 'transhumanists' deal with the how and not the why. Plus most of the transhumanists I've encountered have made it clear we mundanes will not be first class citizens.

    You're one of the few, Zoombie, that won't regard people like me the way Voldemort regards Muggles.
    Wow, you really need to stop hanging out with dickwits.

    Most transhumans I've met discuss the possibility of time traveling by accelerating wormholes to relativistic velocities...
    2068 Series: On Hiatus!
    Shard Series: On Hiatus

    Untitled Furry Thing: 65k/XXXk

    The Bracewell Parable: Done!

    Read my blog: Quantum Spin Plates

    BUY MY BOOK HERE!

  6. #6
    Mental toss flycoon JimmyB27's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
    Posts
    4,998
    I want to be a Culture human. That's how far I'd go.
    Destiny Deceived - Internet serial story. Written by one of the best writers I have ever been.

    "Having been an English literary graduate, I've been trying to avoid the idea of doing art ever since. I think the idea of art kills creativity. I think media are at their most interesting before anybody's thought of calling them art, when people still think they're just a load of junk."
    Douglas Adams

  7. #7
    It's a doggy dog world benbradley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Transcending Canines
    Posts
    20,329
    Quote Originally Posted by veinglory View Post
    I find the very idea of transhumans purely theoretical and extremely tedious. It will be some time before implants do anything more than compensate of illness or disability.

    IMHO exceeding the normal range of human cognitive ability will be harder than transhuman meme-fans think, and probably cause more problems than it is worth, at least for the next few centuries.
    Incredible things will happen within 20 years. Check out what Dean Kamen has already done.

    There's no telling what will happen within a century. No doubt sea level will drop because of the great need for water in outer space.

    In the late 1980s I was on a computer BBS with people who firmly believed a computer would NEVER beat a human chess champion. Meanwhile, the chess ratings of the best computers continued to go up in a roughly linear fashion...
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoombie View Post
    Wow, you really need to stop hanging out with dickwits.

    Most transhumans I've met discuss the possibility of time traveling by accelerating wormholes to relativistic velocities...
    That's definitely post-singularity tech. The amount of energy involved in such things can only be generated by converting planets' or stars' worth of mass into energy. But the nearest stars are less than a decade's flight time away...
    Ello.
    NaNoWriMo 2014: Unknown.
    Tweets daily or so.

  8. #8
    Psychopompous AW Moderator RichardGarfinkle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Chicago, Il
    Posts
    8,557
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoombie View Post
    Wow, you really need to stop hanging out with dickwits.

    Most transhumans I've met discuss the possibility of time traveling by accelerating wormholes to relativistic velocities...
    Quote Originally Posted by benbradley View Post

    That's definitely post-singularity tech. The amount of energy involved in such things can only be generated by converting planets' or stars' worth of mass into energy. But the nearest stars are less than a decade's flight time away...
    I don't mean to poop too much into this discussion, but wormholes are so far purely hypothetical, and second of all, what do you mean by accelerating wormholes?

    Back to the initial question. I think it would depend on what kind of augments the person had and how well tested they are.
    Sometimes, what people need is to have things asked of them.




    Now on Smashwords

  9. #9
    volitare nequeo AW Moderator veinglory's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    right here
    Posts
    27,008
    Quote Originally Posted by benbradley View Post
    Incredible things will happen within 20 years. Check out what Dean Kamen has already done.

    There's no telling what will happen within a century. No doubt sea level will drop because of the great need for water in outer space.
    I have a 1972 book about what life would be like in the year 2000 that I find instructive. Mainly in showing that we suck at predicting things. And also that people stubbornly remain basically people, with all our foibles.

    For example they predicted that with good birth control no births would be unwanted and the human population would shrink. Uh-huh. In reality a solid 50% of births are unplanned now, just as they were in 1972.

    Add to that, humans are not built for after market improvement. Most of our so called progress was just reaching more of our built in potential. Actual augmentation of the human body itself remains essentially fantasy IMHO.

  10. #10
    Heckuva good sport frimble3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    west coast, canada
    Posts
    3,550
    Why do all the efforts go towards making people smarter and not towards making them kinder, or more tolerant, or, indeed, more honest?
    As for voting for transhumans, I'd go for 'more honest' in a flash.
    Do we want smarter criminals? Really alert abusive partners?
    If we do it to children, there's still no way to predict what they'll do with their lives, and I wouldn't trust someone who had themselved adapted because they wanted to run for political office.

  11. #11
    Rewriting My Destiny Cyia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Brillig in the slithy toves...
    Posts
    15,129
    Who made their implants? Can I be reasonably assured said implants don't come with a built-in back door that allows their inventor to turn all of those with implants into long range puppets? For that matter, can I trust that they won't be turned into long range puppies?

    It's a slippery slope, I tell 'ya. First we elect a transhuman with cognitive advantage, then the other guys bring one in that's got the laser eyeballs, and before you know it, we've got some bald dude in a floating wheelchair who sounds like Patrick Steward doing his FDR impression in the Oval office.

    Slippery slippery slope...

    (In all actuality, I wouldn't mind implants that could improve or replace natural functions that have started to break down. I think the reality of it is that as soon as such implantations become reality, doomsdayers will rush legislation through that sets limits on what can and can't be enhanced. If you get new legs, you can't run in the Olympics, for instance. If you get enhanced hearing, then you can't work at the UN where you might overhear things you're not meant to.

    You're going to end up with those afraid of the technology, but also not wanting to be at a disadvantage because they won't use it. There will be protests on a socio-economic level based in the availability and quality of the tech available to the poor. There will be movements dedicated to the "natural" humans. And it will be generations before any advances are actually allowed to advance.

    That's the world we live in.)
    <---- NEW BOOK (Snazzy new cover coming ASAP.)



  12. #12
    Not responsible for bitten fingers Shadow_Ferret's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    In a world of my own making
    Posts
    23,520
    Why are they called TRANShuman? I was thinking this was a discussion of the offspring of a human/alien union.
    Twitter | Pinterest | WordPress | Tumblr

    “I love words but I don’t like strange ones. You don’t understand them and they don’t understand you. Old words is like old friends, you know ‘em the minute you see ‘em.” -- Will Rogers

    "Blame it on my ADD, baby." -- AWOLNATION

  13. #13
    Vengeful Crystaline Hawk 45C AW Moderator Zoombie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    The Sunder
    Posts
    39,008
    Quote Originally Posted by veinglory View Post
    I have a 1972 book about what life would be like in the year 2000 that I find instructive. Mainly in showing that we suck at predicting things. And also that people stubbornly remain basically people, with all our foibles.
    TO be fair...

    We're better at predicting the future than any other form of life we know about, as far as I can determine.

    I'd take "Pretty bad at" over "can't."

    EDIT: Which is to say, I do try and take a lot of predictions about the world with a pretty hefty grain of salt. Hell, I wrote a book that takes place in the 2060s and they don't even have much appreciable transhumans, even though the technology exists. But I think discussing the issue...even if it's unlikely, is still a pretty good idea. Especially with an idea so...transformative.

    As I've said elsewhere, do you think that the cold war would have still happened if we had discussed and thought about the possible ramifications of the atom bomb before inventing it?

    PROBABLY! But that's no reason for us to give up trying to choose to approach the future in a more rational fashion.
    2068 Series: On Hiatus!
    Shard Series: On Hiatus

    Untitled Furry Thing: 65k/XXXk

    The Bracewell Parable: Done!

    Read my blog: Quantum Spin Plates

    BUY MY BOOK HERE!

  14. #14
    Gentleman. Scholar. Bastard. willietheshakes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Semi-sunny Victoria BC
    Posts
    3,660
    Some threads, you can tell who started them just by the title.


  15. #15
    Legal Authority/Public Intellectual robeiae's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Down by the river...
    Posts
    40,661
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoombie View Post
    TO be fair...

    We're better at predicting the future than any other form of life we know about, as far as I can determine.
    Really? Other animals seem to be much quicker at recognizing and reacting to danger. That's prediction...


    As to transhumans, look at all the fuss over the 99%/1%. Imagine if it became the 99.99%/.01%.

    People are--by and large--pricks. They'll still be pricks when they become "transhumans."

    Readeth thou this, Zoombie: http://books.google.com/books/about/...d=Z4fh3Jou9XwC (ignore the reviews; most are obviously from proles...)
    I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death. --Thomas Hobbes

    Quote Originally Posted by CassandraW
    You're a smug, sneering, ranting asshole, and yet even when I despise your position, I like you.
    Learning to run, T'ai Chi style--blogging about running and Eastern philosophy
    Ponds of Happenstance--blogging about politics, economics, and history
    Sailor on the Ponds--tweeting about everything

    Stars, Bars, and Symbols of the Past

    Same-sex marriage and Southern heritage

  16. #16
    Lagrangian LOG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Between there and there
    Posts
    7,631
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow_Ferret View Post
    Why are they called TRANShuman? I was thinking this was a discussion of the offspring of a human/alien union.
    They're transhuman because they're on their way to posthuman.

    Quote Originally Posted by robeiae View Post
    As to transhumans, look at all the fuss over the 99%/1%. Imagine if it became the 99.99%/.01%.

    People are--by and large--pricks. They'll still be pricks when they become "transhumans."

    Readeth thou this, Zoombie: http://books.google.com/books/about/...d=Z4fh3Jou9XwC (ignore the reviews; most are obviously from proles...)
    As I understand it, the ultimate goal of transhumanity is to progress beyond the current humanity.
    So if nothing changed, it would mean that transhumanism hasn't actually occurred.
    "Watch your thoughts, they become words.
    Watch your words, they become actions.
    Watch your actions, they become habits.
    Watch your habits, they become character.
    Watch your character, it becomes your destiny."
    --Laozi

  17. #17
    Vengeful Crystaline Hawk 45C AW Moderator Zoombie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    The Sunder
    Posts
    39,008
    Quote Originally Posted by robeiae View Post
    Really? Other animals seem to be much quicker at recognizing and reacting to danger. That's prediction...
    Actually, one of the problems is that we're one of the few animals that causes such huge alterations to the world around us...so, it could very well be that other animals COULD make better predictions IF they changed the world around them through agriculture and technology.

    BUt since we're the only ones who are making changes, we're the only ones demonstrating the ability to notice what changes are positive and what changes are negative and attempting to adress said negatives.

    (Note: I never said we were good at that attempt. Just that we were tying.)


    As to transhumans, look at all the fuss over the 99%/1%. Imagine if it became the 99.99%/.01%.

    People are--by and large--pricks. They'll still be pricks when they become "transhumans."
    Well, one of the repeating trends in technology is that it starts crappy and expensive and ends awesome and cheap. I don't see any reason why transhuman augmentations won't eventually become cheap and awesome, just like cars or I-phones.

    And, heck, if transhuman augmentation requires technology like nanotechnology or strong AI, both of which could handily change our economic systems as radically as the steam engine, then it could be that the whole 99%/1% dichotomy will be exploded apart.

    (Note: Such a process will destabilize the current social order, which can lead to much gnashing of teeth and all the badness that can bring. Plus, the same super-empowering technologies have inherent dangers that deserve serious thought and discussion on.)

    As for the "most humans are dicks" ...well, I believe otherwise.

    If only because if humanity was as bad as we said we are, then the world would be many orders of magnitude worse than it currently is.
    2068 Series: On Hiatus!
    Shard Series: On Hiatus

    Untitled Furry Thing: 65k/XXXk

    The Bracewell Parable: Done!

    Read my blog: Quantum Spin Plates

    BUY MY BOOK HERE!

  18. #18
    A floopy flolloper K.L. Bennett's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Swamps of Sqornshellous Zeta
    Posts
    562
    I clicked on this thread all ready to be like, "Hells yeah, I'd vote for a transsexual candidate!" .....Clearly, I was way off the mark.

    While I have no issue with, say, an amputee taking advantage of this kind of technology to improve quality of life, I'd have to say, no, I wouldn't vote for an otherwise unimpaired candidate who relied on this technology to make them seem smarter and more capable than the rest of us. I don't trust my fellow humans to play fair as it is, so unless, as someone else said, these implants were going to make it impossible for the candidate to lie, or to act against the interests of their constituents, I wouldn't be voting for them. I feel like it would just make it easier to screw over the rest of us.
    Last edited by K.L. Bennett; 12-12-2012 at 04:17 AM.

  19. #19
    volitare nequeo AW Moderator veinglory's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    right here
    Posts
    27,008
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoombie View Post

    PROBABLY! But that's no reason for us to give up trying to choose to approach the future in a more rational fashion.
    I don't see transhumanists encouraging people to try to choose there own future, just badgering them about how a transhumanist future is inevitable and probably desirable.

    For reasons I have already covered, I disagree on the first and am ambivalent about the second.

  20. #20
    Vengeful Crystaline Hawk 45C AW Moderator Zoombie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    The Sunder
    Posts
    39,008
    Quote Originally Posted by veinglory View Post
    I don't see transhumanists encouraging people to try to choose there own future, just badgering them about how a transhumanist future is inevitable and probably desirable.
    Well, I've always thought a society is like an ecology. Monocultures - like, say, grass lawns - can be really pretty, but are also pretty brittle. A good, sharp shock from an unexpected direction can doom the entire ecology.

    Societies are all made of humans, but humans differ from one another by their ideology and their culture and their art and all the other things we surround ourselves. Cultures that are more diverse, that embrace the plurality of humankind, are tougher. They can roll with the punches and come up swinging.

    Monocultures, that have ONE idea about the world...well, when that idea is challenged, they collapse. My favorite example being the ancient Assyrians: Their monoculture was "If we keep winning wars, the world won't end."

    Then they lost one battle and the whooooooole thing fell apart.

    We should try and avoid becoming a mono-culture. That means that, even if a transhuman future comes to pass, I wouldn't want it to just be MY kind of human. I want all kinds of human, because that means our culture is richer, more stable, more able to hack the tough times.

    Plus, think of the wild profusion of pornography that our many cultures can create!
    2068 Series: On Hiatus!
    Shard Series: On Hiatus

    Untitled Furry Thing: 65k/XXXk

    The Bracewell Parable: Done!

    Read my blog: Quantum Spin Plates

    BUY MY BOOK HERE!

  21. #21
    Legal Authority/Public Intellectual robeiae's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Down by the river...
    Posts
    40,661
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoombie View Post
    Well, one of the repeating trends in technology is that it starts crappy and expensive and ends awesome and cheap. I don't see any reason why transhuman augmentations won't eventually become cheap and awesome, just like cars or I-phones.
    When it's awesome and cheap, it's no longer cutting edge and no longer provides the same kind of competitive advantage. It's the building up to that point that creates the dichotomy, one that isn't overcome when the new technology disperses.

    And, heck, if transhuman augmentation requires technology like nanotechnology or strong AI, both of which could handily change our economic systems as radically as the steam engine, then it could be that the whole 99%/1% dichotomy will be exploded apart.
    Don't think so. Some new members in the elite, some fallout from what is already there, but no real explosion.

    As for the "most humans are dicks" ...well, I believe otherwise.
    I know. And it's why I'm keeping a space open for you in my end-of-civilization bunker...

    If only because if humanity was as bad as we said we are, then the world would be many orders of magnitude worse than it currently is.
    Nah. There's just limited opportunities to be really bad and day-to-day life works better with some amount of cooperation. But when those opportunities appear, there's usually plenty of people lining up to jump in.
    I put for the general inclination of all mankind, a perpetual and restless desire of power after power, that ceaseth only in death. --Thomas Hobbes

    Quote Originally Posted by CassandraW
    You're a smug, sneering, ranting asshole, and yet even when I despise your position, I like you.
    Learning to run, T'ai Chi style--blogging about running and Eastern philosophy
    Ponds of Happenstance--blogging about politics, economics, and history
    Sailor on the Ponds--tweeting about everything

    Stars, Bars, and Symbols of the Past

    Same-sex marriage and Southern heritage

  22. #22
    Hmm... I don't really see the problem with transhuman tech. Provided I had access to it.

    So, yes, I could vote for a transhuman, depending on what their stances were -- and if they were still grounded into reality.

  23. #23
    ! Kaiser-Kun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Mexico
    Posts
    6,047
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoombie View Post
    Then, of course, the question continues to a more personal note: How far will YOU go?
    This far, of course. Anything less would be a failure, and FAILURE IS NOT AN OPTION.
    Quote Originally Posted by blacbird
    You be a baaaaaad man.

  24. #24
    Vengeful Crystaline Hawk 45C AW Moderator Zoombie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    The Sunder
    Posts
    39,008
    I don't know...a body that's 40 feet tall SOUNDS good, but just wait until you try and buy a house.
    2068 Series: On Hiatus!
    Shard Series: On Hiatus

    Untitled Furry Thing: 65k/XXXk

    The Bracewell Parable: Done!

    Read my blog: Quantum Spin Plates

    BUY MY BOOK HERE!

  25. #25
    Bright and Early for the Daily Race Chrissy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Mad World
    Posts
    6,578
    Quote Originally Posted by frimble3 View Post
    Why do all the efforts go towards making people smarter and not towards making them kinder, or more tolerant, or, indeed, more honest?
    As for voting for transhumans, I'd go for 'more honest' in a flash.
    Do we want smarter criminals? Really alert abusive partners?
    If we do it to children, there's still no way to predict what they'll do with their lives, and I wouldn't trust someone who had themselved adapted because they wanted to run for political office.
    QFT.

    Quote Originally Posted by K.L. Bennett View Post
    I clicked on this thread all ready to be like, "Hells yeah, I'd vote for a transsexual candidate!" .....Clearly, I was way off the mark.
    So glad it wasn't just me. I was thinking... the social policies would be groundbreaking!!!! Yes, yes, yes!!
    Quote Originally Posted by K.L. Bennett View Post
    While I have no issue with, say, an amputee taking advantage of this kind of technology to improve quality of life, I'd have to say, no, I wouldn't vote for an otherwise unimpaired candidate who relied on this technology to make them seem smarter and more capable than the rest of us. I don't trust my fellow humans to play fair as it is, so unless, as someone else said, these implants were going to make it impossible for the candidate to lie, or to act against the interests of their constituents, I wouldn't be voting for them. I feel like it would just make it easier to screw over the rest of us.
    Same here.

    And I also have to mention... every time I hear about the "latest thing" that improves your life... I'm skeptical. The problem with improvements, IMO, is that the body adapts and builds up a tolerance over time... what worked then doesn't work so good now, at least psychologically speaking. We don't even know how to cure pain. Morphine wears off. Our bodies build up a tolerance to anti-depressants.... although I'm not scientifically astute enough to understand what a trans-human actually is....

    But still, I'm all for au naturale, whenever possible. Yes, even including nekkid!

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Custom Search