Another serial killer gone

I think it's a mental illness, personally.

I think the need to kill (i.e., serial killers) is a sickness. It's not normal, put it that way. People may kill accidentally or due to extreme emotion, but, serially? That's different.

It makes me (a little bit) sad that he killed himself. Wanting to die speaks of something beyond the psychopathic nature of serial killers... unless it was an "I'll show you who's boss" kind of move.

Who knows, he may have had a terrible compulsion and later felt horrible guilt.

There's an ancient Irish legend that can be interpreted as the spiritual, mental and physical aspects of being didn't quite mesh and there were people who "escaped" the melding who were purely physical, with no sense of higher being or consciousness.

It's a legend, but I always have thought that there are some people who are simply born without whatever makes a person Human. They're physically correct, but they're lacking something mentally/spiritually and just aren't Human. Can't do anything for them, but contain them somehow.

It's not a popular opinion, but the more I see of serial killers and other such people, the more I'm sure it's true.

From bb's article:

The FBI said it consulted with its behavioral analysts in Quantico, Virginia to get insight into his personality.

"He was very, very sensitive to his reputation," Anchorage Police Chief Mark Mew said. "As odd as that sounds, we had to keep things extremely quiet in order to keep him talking with us."

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And:

"Mr. Keyes never showed any remorse for his actions," Kevin Feldis, Assistant US Attorney, said.

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So basically, the mentality was that he wasn't sorry, but he didn't want anyone to know what he did. Sounds like a pretty screwed up mental status. From what I've read, psychopaths are practically "proud" of their "achievements." (Though I think psychopaths are also mentally ill, just in a way that is much more distasteful to the average person).

This bugged me:

"It's important to note here that probably the families of the victims are the real ones that lose here," Frank Russo, Assistant US Attorney, said. "They're never going to get the day in court where they see Mr. Keyes held responsible."

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So him being dead isn't enough. I get the desire to hold someone accountable, and even to exact revenge, but really? He's DEAD. C'mon.

Sounds like a run-of-the-mill narcissist who decided to take the coward's way out, to me.

Chrissy said:

So him being dead isn't enough. I get the desire to hold someone accountable, and even to exact revenge, but really? He's DEAD. C'mon.

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It doesn't have to be vengeance that makes people want to see the murderers of their loved ones in court. Sometimes they hope to get some answers that way as to the how and why. Sometimes it's the only way they can get closure and try to move on with their lives the day after.

DeleyanLee said:

It's a legend, but I always have thought that there are some people who are simply born without whatever makes a person Human. They're physically correct, but they're lacking something mentally/spiritually and just aren't Human. Can't do anything for them, but contain them somehow.

It's not a popular opinion, but the more I see of serial killers and other such people, the more I'm sure it's true.

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I think in slightly different terms it's a quite common theory.

They are know as psychopaths.

Whatever is responsible for the quality of empathy is completely missing in these people. They are often quite charming and intelligent. They know what is socially appropriate and can mimic feelings like grief and concern and fool people, but they are incapable of actually experiencing those emotions themselves -- that whole gamut is something unknowable to them.

And it seems to manifest very early in life, like about seven or eight or even earlier. They really are missing something that the rest of us possess. You can look at it spiritually or in terms of brain chemistry, but we're really talking about the same thing.

quickWit said:

Sounds like a run-of-the-mill narcissist who decided to take the coward's way out, to me.

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Wut? Narcissists don't generally murder people.

I think it's noteworthy that a person would do something over and over again, but not want anyone to know about it. It sounds more like compulsory and shameful to me.

A narcissist would want to brag about what he did, though he might not want to get in trouble. This guy was telling the cops but didn't want it in public.

Friendly Frog said:

It doesn't have to be vengeance that makes people want to see the murderers of their loved ones in court. Sometimes they hope to get some answers that way as to the how and why. Sometimes it's the only way they can get closure and try to move on with their lives the day after.

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Well that makes sense. Thanks for saying that, I didn't think of it that way.

No, I mean the description of him being protective of his reputation and remorseless for his actions were narcissism, not the killings.

As far as not wanting anyone to know about it, if they did, he wouldn't be able to continue. I think that just makes him logical.

Being a narcissist doesn't make him stupid.

Of course, not knowing much more than what the short article stated, I don't honestly know much for sure other than the fact that he's dead.

quickWit said:

No, I mean the description of him being protective of his reputation and remorseless for his actions were narcissism, not the killings.

As far as not wanting anyone to know about it, if they did, he wouldn't be able to continue. I think that just makes him logical.


Being a narcissist doesn't make him stupid.

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Oh okay. So it's the idea of wanting people to think you're awesome even though you know if they "knew the truth" they'd know it wasn't true. See, I always thought of narcissists as actually believing they were awesome, no matter what they did. To me, caring about what other people think =/= narcissism. Thinking everyone should care about what you think, or thinking it's all about "you" = narcissism.

Of course, not knowing much more than what the short article stated, I don't honestly know much for sure other than the fact that he's dead.

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A very good point. Same here.

Chrissy said:

Oh okay. So it's the idea of wanting people to think you're awesome even though you know if they "knew the truth" they'd know it wasn't true. See, I always thought of narcissists as actually believing they were awesome, no matter what they did.

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I'm getting a faint whiff of sarcasm...

He can believe he's awesome and still be aware that the public, the authorities and the world in general would not see him as such because 'they wouldn't understand', and so be unwilling to bear the consequences, right? Wouldn't that still square with narcissism?

blacbird said:

Quite the contrary. Many famous serial killers have demonstrated a psychopathic level of narcissism in vivid public ways:

Ted Bundy
John Gacy
Richard Ramirez
Bobby Joe Long
Randy Kraft
Christopher Wilder
Rodney Alcala

most recently, Drew Peterson

Sometimes it takes the form of game-playing with authorities, as in BTK killer Dennis Rader, or Green River killer Gary Ridgway, or the never-solved Zodiac Killer in the San Francisco area. Or the first such, Jack the Ripper.

Just as often, it's a purely private narcissistic enjoyment, the need to demonstrate that you are more important, better than these other objects known as people. That you are special.

caw

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Definitely narcissism is a component of the psychopathy. But still, there are lots of narcissists who would never dream of killing anyone. They're just really tiring to talk to.

I guess the part of the narcissism that doesn't add up in the OP case for me is that he didn't want anyone to know. Not only did he not want anyone to know what he did, but he didn't want to express his justification for doing it...which is a significant aspect of narcissistic behavior.

quickWit said:

I'm getting a faint whiff of sarcasm...

He can believe he's awesome and still be aware that the public, the authorities and the world in general would not see him as such because 'they wouldn't understand', and so be unwilling to bear the consequences, right? Wouldn't that still square with narcissism?

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I suppose that could be true, but say, in the case of Ted Bundy, he did interview after interview about himself, how HE felt about his murders, what was going on with HIS life... blah blah blah... it was amazingly about HIM, and justification for what he did, how he felt, ad nauseum. And he was perfectly willing, practically eager, to talk about it to the public.

That's the difference in my mind, but it's certainly not black and white.

I went back and re-read the linked article, and I can't tell what he did/didn't say, how he behaved once captured, etc. Really all it does say is that he showed no remorse for his crimes and the police had to be very careful in dealing with him so he would continue to speak with them.

Based on that alone, any conclusions about his personal beliefs one way or another are a huge leap.

rugcat said:

I think in slightly different terms it's a quite common theory.

They are know as psychopaths.

Whatever is responsible for the quality of empathy is completely missing in these people. They are often quite charming and intelligent. They know what is socially appropriate and can mimic feelings like grief and concern and fool people, but they are incapable of actually experiencing those emotions themselves -- that whole gamut is something unknowable to them.

And it seems to manifest very early in life, like about seven or eight or even earlier. They really are missing something that the rest of us possess. You can look at it spiritually or in terms of brain chemistry, but we're really talking about the same thing.

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Time for a novel ....

A scientist who is one of the most revered experts in the world in the field of studying psychopaths and sociopaths has been secretly developing some kind of medical test to determine if someone is such a case. Meanwhile, he is hapilly married with a young son of 7 years at home. And then he starts to notice behavios in his son which are classic of a psychopath in the making at trhat tender age. He at first tries to deny it, but eventually finds he can't ignore it anymore. So he does this medical test on his son's DNA (or whatever gets tested) and the test not only come sback positive, but the etst indicates his son is a rare specimen of one of the absolute worst types of psychopaths, and more than capable of developing into a serial killer.

So now he must decide what to do. There is no cure for this disease. He decides he must kill his own son.

And BTW --does medical science get to disect the deceased killer's brain now??

Plot Device said:

So now he must decide what to do. There is no cure for this disease. He decides he must kill his own son.

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Or name him Dexter and train him up in the way he should go.

quickWit said:

I went back and re-read the linked article, and I can't tell what he did/didn't say, how he behaved once captured, etc. Really all it does say is that he showed no remorse for his crimes and the police had to be very careful in dealing with him so he would continue to speak with them.

Based on that alone, any conclusions about his personal beliefs one way or another are a huge leap.

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I agree. But you've got me hung up on the definition of narcissism now. I looked it up and the bottom line is there seem to be many definitions. IME, it always seems like the narcissist is practically incapable of thinking about things from another person's perspective... and doesn not care about that perspective, but instead would be utterly focused upon his own thought processes, rationalizations, etc. So, in the OP case, the fact that he cared about other people's opinions made him more self-conscious than narcissistic. JMO. I'll stop now. No wait... LISTEN TO ME, THIS IS WHAT I THINK!!!! /narcissistic rant

Plot Device said:

And BTW --does medical science get to disect the deceased killer's brain now??

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Yanno, I'm not entirely adverse to that idea.

Chrissy said:

So, in the OP case, the fact that he cared about other people's opinions made him more self-conscious than narcissistic.

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It didn't say he cared about other people's opinions, just about his 'reputation', but again - they don't even say what that reputation was. Maybe he wanted to be known as a great seducer/killer of beautiful women, which wouldn't match with the murder of the couple from Vermont.

To me, that's a significant distinction.

Aaaaaanyway...

Carry on.

quickWit said:

It didn't say he cared about other people's opinions, just about his 'reputation', but again - they don't even say what that reputation was. Maybe he wanted to be known as a great seductor/killer of beautiful women, which wouldn't match with the murder of the couple from Vermont.

To me, that's a significant distinction.

Aaaaaanyway...

Carry on.

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That's a damn good point. You're scaring me with your intuitiveness.

Chrissy said:

That's a damn good point. You're scaring me with your intuitiveness.

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That isn't my intuitiveness.
And my eyes are up here, Chrissy.

quickWit said:

That isn't my intuitiveness.
And my eyes are up here, Chrissy.

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I'm so sorry! I forgot where I was!

Meet me at Office Party, Bunneh.

Chrissy said:

Meet me at Office Party, Bunneh.

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jackpot.

*exits, stage left*