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Thread: [Publicity] Market or Die

  1. #51
    New Fish; Learning About Thick Skin
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bogna View Post
    Okay, I will ask for a third time, can anyone provide us with numbers? If marketing doesn't improve sales, then there is no point in marketing. I wasn't asking specifically for Powerball's numbers. ANY of you clients numbers would be sufficient.

    Ok, let me try to answer this again. Marketing creates relationships to generate sales. Marketing activities like running a contest, for example, create measurable sales volume. And you are correct, you measure the activity before the contest, run the contest, measure and evaluate. We create for our clients contests and give them a step by step list of instructions how to run, execute and measure the contest to judge its effectiveness.

    My clients are welcome to post their results here, but that's financial data which is private to them. I won't post sales data here on their behalf. Just ask I wouldn't ask you for your recent sales data to prove a point. If you are of the belief that marketing doesn't work, there's no magic number I could post here to convince you otherwise.

  2. #52
    Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. kaitie's Avatar
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    Is it taboo to anonymously give a figure? Something like "on average clients see a 130% increase in sales" wouldn't be giving away financial information or anything private.

    I think the reason this is such a big question is that you're talking about a lot of money. That's money that is essentially worthless unless the author is able to earn it back and more via your services. And it takes an awful lot of books to make up those numbers.

    I'm also always wary lately when I see social media (Facebook in particular) touted as a way to sell things considering all actual evidence I've seen has shown that it doesn't often do you a whole lot of good. Do you have evidence to show that the techniques you promote are actually effective?

    I know that personally I would never consider anything this expensive without a detailed explanation of methods (including evidence of effectiveness) and really good sales data to back up the services.


  3. #53
    volitare nequeo AW Moderator veinglory's Avatar
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    I don't really see how the marketer would even have that information. Those that do measure it, and do report to her, would not use identical metrics and would not be a random sample.

    It is a bit different from publishers who actually have direct access to sales data (and most of them don't provide this kind of info either).
    Last edited by veinglory; 12-05-2012 at 06:28 AM.
    Emily Veinglory

  4. #54
    practical experience, FTW Khazarkhum's Avatar
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    All right. I'll leave sales alone for now.

    Now, do posts here constitute mention in social media?

  5. #55
    USA Today Bestselling Author Jamiekswriter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khazarkhum View Post
    All right. I'll leave sales alone for now.

    Now, do posts here constitute mention in social media?
    Are you asking in general or for the purpose of Market or Die's social media mentions?

    In general, yes. (See my signature . . . pointy pointy). (I'm not a client of MOD at the moment -- in case you're wondering.)

    For the purpose of MOD, I don't see how it could. There's been no mention here of book titles/descriptions/release dates or any specifics, nothing to build a writer's brand, etc. I think the social media mentions come in the form of twitter, facebook, and review blogs etc.

  6. #56
    New Fish; Learning About Thick Skin
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    my 2 cents

    Ok, I did only join so I could reply to the MODAS thread, but since I was quoted, I figure I should show up in person.

    Reading this thread, I boil it down to a few basic concerns:

    Is Modas a legitimate company? - Yes.

    What kind of services do they offer? - In my case I said, "I don't know what I need, here's my situation, what do you suggest?" Jennifer suggested and quoted and I made up my mind whether to proceed. At no time did I feel I was under pressure to work with her. She has since made another suggestion at my request, I said blog tours give me hives, she said we could work out something else, I said I wasn't sure if I was ready, she said No Prob, give me a call when you are. Again, no pressure. I give her the highest marks for professionalism and merely being there, available, without trying to hard sell.

    Can you quantify the results in terms of sales? - I think that's a tough one whether it's facebook likes or radio spots or posting on an author thread. In my case, I had just sold and knew I needed a marketing plan and asked, "Where do I start?" I wasn't trying to increase sales per se - no books to sell yet. I wanted advice and guidance, a service, and I got it. I'm satisfied.

    Are MODAS prices unreasonably high? - To be very blunt, they can charge whatever they think they're worth (and the market will bear if they want to stay alive). If I pretend I'm Jennifer for a minute and I get paid 'x' for my dayjob, and on the side I'm writing books and as a third gig I market other writers, well I want the marketing stuff to pay because we all know the writing thing is not a sure thing. What do you think Nora pays for her publicity team? I'm gonna guess they ain't workin' for peanuts. Given Jennifer's smarts, I'd think she did a competitor analysis of her own and figured out where she wanted to position herself and knows her prices will attract writers willing (and yes, able) to invest in their career.

    Can't we do a lot of this stuff ourselves? - Hell ya, but I also have a day job so to carve out writing time, I look at paying for things I can delegate.

    I get that we all have to be a little skeptical of ads offering services to writers. Absolutely people get taken advantage of and it's fair to ask if someone is legit. Here's my question: When a company like MODAS starts up, how else can they get the word out that they exist if not by putting an ad in a trade mag like RWR?

    This thread has raised a lot of good questions and will hopefully educate the newer writers to do their homework, get feedback from other customers, and be realistic about return on investment.

  7. #57
    volitare nequeo AW Moderator veinglory's Avatar
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    Yes indeed. And while I think any company can freely offer any service--it behooves the author to think: while I make a net proft from this, and how would I measure outcomes to measure this outcome?

    A lot of authors have fallen for the 'it's building my brand' and 'don't expect to see immediate sales' memes. IMHO, you should have a good reason to think the strategy will make sales and I sure as hell think that is the goal.

    I would surely anticipate your marketing expert to have concrete advice on both matters (why will this sell my titles, how do I track it).

    For example advertising should be provided with a description of circulation/traffic, expected conversion and why this audience is being targeted.
    Last edited by veinglory; 12-06-2012 at 11:13 PM.
    Emily Veinglory

  8. #58
    Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. kaitie's Avatar
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    What veinglory said. I think if you're going to spend money for a service like this, it should be assumed that the service will help sell more books and pay for itself, so to speak. Is it a gamble? Of course, but unless someone could show me "our authors have clear increases in sales as a result of our efforts," I'd avoid it. This is just me, personally, though.

    Part of the reason I'm skeptical about social media being mentioned as useful is because I've seen people who did track their sales day by day and linked those sales up to different marketing efforts they did, and I don't think I've seen one yet where social media was found to do much of anything.

    If the costs weren't very high or I had money to throw away, so to speak, I could see getting a consult, but my big question would be "what can you do that I can't do myself?" I'd also have to keep in mind that I'm a good researcher, though, and it would have to be things I wouldn't find to do on my own.

    I'm not saying it's a waste to spend money on marketing. I think it could potentially be a good idea. I'd just personally go with someone who either had tactics other than the obvious ones I see suggested everywhere or who had evidence of those efforts paying off for the clients.


  9. #59
    empty-nester! shadowwalker's Avatar
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    Any business, when looking at advertising dollars, wants to get the biggest bang for the buck. To do that, they look at what they want to accomplish with that marketing, what's already being done, what's proposed, what kind of results they've seen with the current strategies, what results others have had with the proposed marketing strategies, cost versus benefit, etc. There's no reason authors shouldn't also do this. That's the business end of being a writer.
    Je suis Charlie

    "It seems rather like wanting to be ... a writer, rather than wanting to write. It should be a by-product, not a thing in itself. Otherwise, it's just an ego trip." - Roger Zelazny

    Passion is easy; commitment is hard.

  10. #60
    volitare nequeo AW Moderator veinglory's Avatar
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    And getting expert advice could certainly help with that. I would just want to see an explicit marketing plan with that kind of detail on it.
    Emily Veinglory

  11. #61
    here and there again
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    I'm wondering how the launches of these new writers are going, since several had 2013 launches.

    Just read the entire history of this thread and it make some good points, and misses a few. One point needs to be made, I believe, having sold my first book in 1987 and witnessed a lot of marketing trends from that time forward [although I spent a lot of years away from publishing and in screenwriting so probably missed a few].

    While I think most of the questions asked here about this service and others like it were tough and smart, there is one question that really has so many variables it isn't really fair in many if not most cases, and that is--sales figures, and prove that this works.

    The big variable here is the book itself. All the marketing savvy in the world won't sell a book that isn't hitting the target. Is it because the writing isn't good? The story isn't unusual enough? The market is saturated? If people read the excerpts and don't want to read the book, that's the end and it has nothing to do with marketing being insufficient. It's the book that failed.

    One of my mentors way back in the last century had a huge mailing list, created flyers and bookmarks that she sent to around 1500 people with each book release. She said she couldn't stand to do the numbers, see how much she spent total with each packet mailed because the numbers would be too daunting. But she also said that she knew herself, and from the time the first book sold she knew that if she held onto her advance instead of spending it all [and she did spend it all] on ads in RT and mailings and such, and her book didn't sell, she'd always wonder 'what if' and feel as if she had a child she hadn't supported enough to find its way successfully as an adult.

    She had a long career that didn't end until she was burned out and tired of writing, and she did make a profit each year. She never knew whether she came out ahead on her advertising expenses or not. She never knew whether her profits would be higher if she didn't spend so much promoting herself and her books.

    She just knew she had to do it, or she couldn't live with herself.
    Last edited by miamyselfandi; 11-20-2013 at 07:29 PM.

  12. #62
    Mostly Harmless SuperModerator CaoPaux's Avatar
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    Site and social media accounts vanished mid '16, yet she's recently attended conferences under the brand. Anyone have contact as of late?
    ICAO
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  13. #63
    New Fish; Learning About Thick Skin
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    I had a friend who used them. The experience was not positive. They seem to be really good at marketing romance novels, but my friend was in another genre. She found her book promoted on romance novel blogs. Surprise: no one wanted to buy her books there! She tried to ask for a refund, but my friend is a little timid and easily bullied. I've actually met Jennifer and thought she was wonderful, but she farmed out the promotion for my friend and wouldn't consider a refund even though the work provided was not helpful.

    Again: I like Jennifer a lot. It can be hard running a small business.

    But after what my friend experienced, I don't plan on using them...if they are still in business at all.

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