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High Hill Press

aliceshortcake

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Of the authors listed on High Hill's site, I couldn't find anyone who has bestselling books elsewhere. Since High Hill books have no store placement, I can't figure out what it is about this company that would attract bestselling authors.

Could Louella be referring to this gentleman?

Dusty Richards, a good friend of mine and author of 110 New York published books, and several High Hill Press books...

Dusty Richards - who also writes as Ralph Compton - is indeed a prolific, award-winning author of westerns. Whether anyone would have heard of him had he started his career at HHP instead of submitting to NY publishers is another matter. His two HHP books are:

The Bounty Man and Doe, published in September 2011: Amazon ranking 2,735,795

Outlaw Queen, published in December 2011: Amazon ranking 3,146,706

Neither book has a 'Look Inside' feature and both paperbacks are priced at $15.95, which suggests that they are POD. The blurb for Outlaw Queen doesn't reflect well on HHP's copy-editing:

This book is the first in a new series by famous Western Writer, Dusty Richards, called the Frank Brothers Series. Outlaw Queen is a unique look at the west through the eyes of, Rath Macon, a young rancher who loses everything to a greedy wife. The title character, the Outlaw Queen, is a woman who has also been deceived by a spouse. Her husband was a member of the infamous James Gang, and she didn't know of his secret life until he was killed. Being the widow of an outlaw kept her weary of everyone. Everyone except Rath Macon.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1606530518/?tag=absowrit-20
 
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Terie

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There is a thread building around a simple question published several days ago. Someone innocently asked about my company, High Hill Press. Several people responded with some of the most vile and unethical rhetoric I've ever read. I responded out of sheer frustration and then realized that it wouldn't matter what I said, the few that thrived on getting their views onto forums like this would continue because they have to. I noticed that several of them had thousands of posts. That is certainly an indication that they do nothing but sit in front of their computer and polute the forum with their ramblings. If you have a question about a publisher, simply look at their website and if you like what you see and read contact them directly.

Publishing is an exciting, everchanging business and I'm thankful every day that this is the path I've chosen. Perhaps I was getting too sure of myself lately. After we nominated a book for a Pulitzer in October, and two for the Cowboy Musuem's prestigious Heritage Award just last week, I was feeling pretty cocky. Then I get an e-mail invite to visit this site and see what was being said about me. I was horrified that people would spew forth such mean-spirited words without the least bit of knowledge or integrity. Then I calmed down and realized that this is the world in which we live. Instead of joining into their often nonsensical discussion again, I would istead encourage every writer to do their research when it comes to publishing. Don't rely on the meanderings of people on forums such as this to guide you. Polish your writing and join the exciting world of publishing, but do it sensibly. Good luck with your writing, and thanks for making me realize that I still have so much to learn. And as far as forums go, I do a lot of research online, and probably visit one writers site or another on a daily basis, but this is such a severe waste of time for a true writer to indulge in. Skip the forums where the person pretending to be a writer might have never written a notable word.

Quoted for posterity.
 

shaldna

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Wow, well this thread didn't go well.

It saddens me when someone claiming to be a professional comes here and has a meltdown. They need to understand how their behaviour in a public forum comes across - for a publisher that goes on quite a lot about marketing, they seem to have very little understanding of how to behave in public and how that reflects on them, their company and everyone associated with it.

Food for thought, perhaps.

I am Lou Turner, owner of High Hill Press. It's unfortunate that someone else decided to answer your question about High Hill, because it's obvious this person knows nothing about my company, and probably not too much about publishing as a whole.

Lou, what you'll find is that people come here to ask about experiences of a publisher, or to get a second opinion on someone they are thinking of submitting to.

Those here will have based their opinions and thoughts on information that YOU made publically available. For instance, I lifted some concerning quotes of YOUR website, and I questioned the quality of the covers on YOUR website that YOU said were high quality. That is what I based my opinions on.

Now, let me tell you about some of the people on this thread who 'probably' don't know too much about publishing - on this thread alone I can see several publishers, professional writers, editors and people who are very knowledgeable and well respected in the publishing industry. You don't know that because you are new here, but it's unwise to go into any new community, industry or gathering and start flinging around comments about the knowledge and professional experience of someone you don't know.


We are not a pod. When I say our books can stay in print forever, it's the truth. Like most university presses, and unlike commercial presses, we can keep a book in print as long as the author wants it to be. Commerical presses sometimes take a book out of print within 6 weeks and move on to the next one they think will be a better money maker. An author has a very small window to make sales. We are in it for the long haul on every book.

With all due respect, you're deliberately misleading people here, and displaying your own ignorance of the publishing industry.

For instance, in the past I've had contracts which state that my book will stay in print for as long as it continues to sell above a certain level. I've also had contracts for specified periods of time. Both are common. I've never heard of a commercial press which takes books out of print in 6 weeks - however I would love to see your examples.

You seem to be getting confused with the fact that many books sell best in the first few months after release. True, some are sleeper hits, but for the most part it's true. This is why bookstores will return books that aren't selling. This is not the publisher taking the book out of print - the book will still be available to order online or from the bookstore, or may be available in some stores.

As far as the way we edit, we do galleys and expect the author to be involved exactly like a good commercial press will do.

This has already been addressed, so I will not.

We do not charge fees of any kind. Our editors are qualified and work their hearts out.

Not according to their bios - the majority of your editors seem to have no prior editing experience. Again, this is information that YOU have made publically available for people who are looking at YOUR website. You might want to sort that out.


[Our cover design team is professional.

But your covers are truly bad. You may wish to reassess your current team.


And each author is expected to market their books exactly the way a commercial press expects their authors to do. Unless you're Stephen King, you get no help from a commerical press. We probably do more than most, but it's still impossible to sell a book, that is the author's job. We put our books into distribution and we sell in every forum we can.

Really? Because I get a marketing budget. True, it's not huge, but it's there. It's my publishers job to market my books. Not mine. I'm expected to participate in 'reasonable' way - but certainly not to do it all.

My husband, who's a publisher by the way, markets for his authors - he has to - some of them are now dead. If the publisher didn't market the books, then who would?

As you can tell I'm extremely aggrivated that someone so uninformed would presume to answer your question for you about my company.

As you can probably tell some of us are extremely aggrivated that someone who clearly doesn't know as much as they like to think they do, has come here all guns blazing and throwing around misinformation and slurs on our professional experience and knowledge.


You are welcome to join one of our marketing meetings and maybe you'd learn something.

Perhaps you should pay more attention in your marketing meetings, because these sort of snippy outbursts don't exactly market your company well.


You've spent a lot of time lifting quotes from my website, with several of them being wrong.

They were lifted directly from YOUR website, if they are 'wrong' then this is YOUR fault.


I'd suggest that you spend this time more wisely, and perhaps learn a little more about publishing before you spew forth wrong information.

Funny, I was just going to suggest exactly the same to you.


Many of your statements are the same incorrect information I've seen time and time again from new publishers who either are clueless and don't know what they're talking about, or are scammers trying to mislead new authors.

And sadly we tend to see these same sort of outbursts too.


We're drawing conclusions based solely on the information publicly available about your press -- which is what every other prospective author will be doing. If your website is causing authors to draw incorrect conclusions, then this thread has provided a valuable service to you.

This was sort of my point too,.


Not only are you uninformed about publishing, you are implying that my bio is incorrect? Or invalid?

No, she was asking for clarification on some statements that YOU made in YOUR bio - such as book names, publisher etc.


I've been a writer for two decades, and a publisher for 5 years.

And so you'll not mind sharing your previous publishing experience with us so that we'll all know where you gained your vast knowledge about how the industry works?


We just nominated our first title for a Pulitzer, with a book that is the sixth in a series.

And again, this sounds really impressive until you realise that ANYONE can nominate any book for a Pulitzer.


Actually my words are probably lost to you, because it's obvious you are only out to spout random mean spirited sentences that have no truth to them whatsoever.

You might want to reread this thread.


There is a thread building around a simple question published several days ago. Someone innocently asked about my company, High Hill Press. Several people responded with some of the most vile and unethical rhetoric I've ever read.

No. This is a lie.

Some of us, myself included, responded with opinions based on the information YOU supplied publically through YOUR website. So I would like it if you pointed out where I was supposedly lying?


I responded out of sheer frustration and then realized that it wouldn't matter what I said, the few that thrived on getting their views onto forums like this would continue because they have to.

Actually, it's mostly to help people avoid scam publishers.

I noticed that several of them had thousands of posts. That is certainly an indication that they do nothing but sit in front of their computer and polute the forum with their ramblings.

I'll spend my time doing whatever I damn well please and it's no business of yours.


If you have a question about a publisher, simply look at their website and if you like what you see and read contact them directly.

Which is exactly what I did, and it raised concerns.
 

Bloo

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As the only AW member (that has posted on this thread, to my knowledge) with direct knowledge (although limited) of HHP, I'm throwing more detailed information on them, take it for what it is worth.

In September of 2012, Western author Brett Cogburn had a little contest of sorts on his blog. IIRC, The Greatest Western Never Told contest was originally designed as just a fun exercise on Cogburn's blog with the "winner" getting an interview with him on the blog to promote themselves. It was only after the contest started that HHP asked if they could partner with Brett to have several pieces selected for their anthology (and possibly the next one as well, Cactus Country IV).

As I mentioned, my piece along with approximately 40 others, was selected, though not as the ultimate winner (the interview, which is one of the main reasons I entered, that and the challenge of writing a complete story in 4 sentences).

I've had zero interaction with HHP directly on this piece, all my correspondence has been through Brett Cogburn.

On Oct 7, I received the following email:
Mr. Robert,

Your four-sentence western was chosen as a winner for the Greatest Western
Never Told Flash Fiction Contest. If you wish your story to be published
in the Cactus Country III short story anthology, please go to the My Two
Cents blog (brettcogburn.com) and follow the instructions listed in the
Winners posting.

Sincerely,

Brett Cogburn
I was out of town and away from all technology when this was sent so when I got back, on Oct 17th, and got this email I went to Brett Cogburn's blog and looked at the information stated for winners, which stated:
If you are listed among the winners, please pay close attention. Contact me @ [email protected] , listing your hometown, state and permission to publish your four-sentence western if you wish your story to appear in CC III. We had first thought to allow a short, two-sentence bio for each winning author, but time and space constraints have changed that. If you are a winner and do not provide permission to publish your flash fiction story and your hometown and state, you will not be published. No royalties will be paid to the flash-fiction authors in CC III, however, they will see their creations in the book alongside some well-known and accomplished writers’ short stories. Already, one talented winner from the contest has signed a short story contract with High Hill Press.
I then replied back with the following.
Mr Cogburn,

Sorry this is so late getting to you, I was out of town and away from my computer for the past two weeks.

NAME: Everett Robert
HOMETOWN: Colby, KS
PERMISSION TO PUBLISH: permitted

Thank you,

Everett Robert

I figured I would get a follow up email with release date, rights issues, how I can let people know where to purchase the book, etc and haven't heard back from him since then (though we've interacted some on Facebook).

I talked to my significant other (who is living on the eat coast ATM while I go back to college here in the Midwest) as she also was selected and that has been the extent of her interactions with him regarding this contest as well.

I'm guessing (though I don't know for sure) that this may be all Mr Cogburn knows as well. As I mentioned in an earlier posting, his only work with them has been on their first anthology (Cactus Country 1) and a collection of short stories (The Devil's Hoofbeats--I originally thought he was involved only in Cactus Country 1 & 2) and his other works have been with other publishing houses (Kensington and Pinnacle with a third one coming soon from Berkley). HHP has not contacted me regarding the rights issues, the exclusivity (can I post this on my blog, Facebook page, etc) or anything.

Now they may not be too concerned with this information because "it's only" a 4 sentence short story that is a contest winner, but that is, IMO, no reason to no address these issues with authors. You may not have an exact date on your next anthology, I understand that, but to not address the rights issues, exclusivity, etc, is bothersome. Maybe it's because it's already on a public blog (which would take away the first publication rights or something) I don't know, but it seems like these things SHOULD be addressed in some way (again in my opinion).

I will also note, there has been nothing in the information that was sent to me and/or posted that prevents me from disclosing this information. What I've posted here is all the information that has been made available to me.

I will note that, according again to Brett Cogburn's website, his short story collection is
Available at Amazon, Barnes and Noble, highhillpress.com, Cactus Country, and select stores in trade paperback. Also available on Kindle.

and Cactus Country 1 can be purchased
at Amazon.com, HighHillPress.com, or High Hill's Western imprint site, Cactus Country.

That collection includes:
Dusty Richards, Johnny D. Boggs, Cotton Smith, Jory Sherman, John Nesbitt, and many more
.
 

calieber

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It's interesting, I'm seeing here a time-honored time-tested old rhetorical strategy here: "it doesn't matter what I say, the verdict was in from the beginning." It really seems of a piece with her overall sense of persecution. "the Big Five are all in cahoots against you, we're at the forefront of a new era, anyone who criticizes us is trying to stop the revolution."

I actually see that a lot, and it's unfortunate, because it makes it difficult to tease out legitimate criticism from the a posteriori rationalizations of people who are opposed to your existence -- and I've seen this among people who face far more of the latter than an independent publisher does.

I'm sure she thinks she won -- exposed the hypocricy and closed-mindedness of the so-called authors and self-styled experts, etc etc. So when her business doesn't go were she expects or hopes, she'll be totally mystified, either at how it happened, or at how her many powerful enemies got through the safeguards.

(If she does respond to this, I'm guessing she's going to point to my use of a Latin phrase as a sign of snobbery or of thinking I'm better than I am or of general pretentiousness or something like that.)
 

James D. Macdonald

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I don't like the term "lying" in discussions like this. That implies deliberately telling untruths for the purpose of deception.

There's a whole gamut of misapprehension that is far more likely. Someone could be simply misinformed yet attempting to tell the truth exactly as they know it.
 

HapiSofi

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IMO, the underlying problem with High Hill Press is the vast amount of misinformation about publishing that's available online. I doubt there's any conscious fraud involved, and in any event it's not a necessary hypothesis. What we can say is that even now, Ms. Turner isn't aware that her picture of how publishing works is full of inaccuracies. This hurts everyone.

First, though, I think I may be able to clear up the ongoing questions about her use of galley, which I warn you is going to require footnotes.

Here's her paragraph:
HHP: Once we have accepted your book, and both parties have signed a contract, we will begin the galley process. Galleys will be printed and sent to you to edit. We trust our editors and when they make a suggestion it is always for the good of the book. We also do as many galleys as it takes to make your book the best it can be so sometimes this can take months.
I'm going to take her three instances of galley in reverse order, because that way I go from simplest to most complex. So, starting with the third instance:
We also do as many galleys as it takes.​
For galleys, read passes. That's just a munged version of We'll do as many passes as it takes to get it right.[1]
Galleys will be printed and sent to you to edit.
This should be Galleys will be printed out and sent to you to proof. You don't use print by itself unless you're manufacturing finished copies; and galleys are proofed, not edited. Editing is to manufacturing galleys as pillage is to burn: it's the default order.[2]
we will begin the galley process.
This is Just Wrong. Stage, round, pass, page, proof, and galley are closely related terms,[3] but they aren't synonyms, and they don't all get used the same way. What Ms. Turner is describing is either the editing stage or editing process, or the text production process. At a sufficiently small and/or utilitarian publishing operation those may be combined into a single process,[4] which still won't be referred to as the galley process.[5]

So what's the point, the upshot, the takeaway? It's that Ms. Turner doesn't have experience in the trade publishing industry. If she had, information flow would have come to a dead stop every time she used galley process to mean editing, and she'd have quickly learned not to say it.

The very long explanation is so I wouldn't have to say "I know this because I know it, and I'm right because I'm right," which would have gotten right up Ms. Turner's nose.

=======================
FOOTNOTES

1. While it's technically possible to say "We'll go through as many rounds of galleys as it takes," it doesn't match the process Ms. Turner is describing, because the only context in which I can imagine the sentence occurring would be one in which managing editorial/production is having a trench-warfare-style disagreement with the typesetter.

2. They're editing in galleys means Their workflow is chaotic or Work on that project is running bass-ackwards. (It used to mean both those things plus They're paying through the nose for it, but nowadays it's merely expensive.) If you say That book was edited in galleys, you're explaining why the text is such a mess.

3. Page galleys or galley pages, as opposed to unpaginated long galleys, are pages of typeset text formatted as book pages. The "page" half of the term has been disappearing since long galleys went away, so more and more it's just galleys. The word is also used to mean "bound or unbound sets of such pages," as in loose galleys, bound galleys, uncorrected galleys, and author's galleys.

4. The editing process plus the text production process and interior book design is properly referred to as pre-press or prepress work. If a small and/or utilitarian publisher actually calls it that, they probably started out in real publishing or the printing trades.

5. There are several real uses of galley process, and they all mean "thing our department does with galleys." Thus, if you're a publishing executive, it's deciding which titles are going to be produced as bound galleys, and how many copies you'll want of each. If you're in managing editorial or production, it's when loose sets of first-pass uncorrected typeset pages come back from the typesetter, and you send one set of each to the author, the proofreader, and the outside firm that manufactures bound galleys. If you're in publicity, it's when you send out bound galleys (accompanied by a cover letter and possibly a press release) in hope of getting advance reviews. None of which, I reiterate, have anything to do with what Ms. Turner is describing.
 
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HapiSofi

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Moving on now to Aliceshortcake's comments on things said on HHP's website:
HHP: Please note when submitting to us that we turn down nearly 75% of the books we see.​
Aliceshortcake: An acceptance rate of 25% is much higher than that of major commercial publishers.​
An acceptance rate of 25% is too high for any commercial publisher that takes open submissions of general-interest books. In your average slush pile, the percentage of books that can honestly be called readable is at most in the very low two digits, and the percentage of books that are publishable is quite a bit lower.
HHP: Another reason you might get a rejection from High Hill, or any publisher, comes down to marketing. If you're not willing to get out there and push your book, if you can't do book signings, or don't have the time to do talks or events where other authors are invited, then you might not be ready to publish.​
Aliceshortcake: "Any publisher"? Really?​
Not really. In fact, not at all. It's the quality of the book that matters, not the author's willingness to pester bookstore managers. There's a simple way to test this proposition. Think of some very successful writers. Do they spend a lot of their time trying to promote their books? They do not. They let their publishers do it for them, because real publishers sell books.

Note that those very successful authors also didn't spend a lot of time promoting their books when they were coming up through the ranks. What they did do was write more good books. What propelled them to the top was their writing, helped by their their publishers' sales and marketing.

And now I have a question. What the combination of "We reject 75% of our submissions" plus "you're not worth publishing unless you're willing to work as an unpaid sales rep" suggests to me is Publish America. Is it possible that Ms. Turner is a graduate of the PA publishing program? If so, it would explain a lot.
Aliceshortcake: No-one could accuse HHP of concealing the fact that they expect authors to market their own work.​
We now come to a truly troublesome quote from Ms. Turner. I'm going to take it in chunks:
HHP: I tell people at our marketing meetings that we're back to the days of Jacqueline Susann. You have to purchase your own books, keep them in the trunk of your car, and hit the road.​
Dead wrong, but we'll get back to that. It's also factually untrue. Jacqueline Susann never hit the road and sold books out of the back of her car. She was a tireless self-promoter, no question, but she wasn't hand-selling single retail copies to random strangers. Her books all came out from NYC publishing houses that had normal distribution deals. They got her into bookstores. They also rewrote her awful manuscript, and spent huge amounts of money promoting it.

Susann did hold signings, but her most effective self-promotion consisted of stuff like getting guest slots on television shows, and going to distributors' warehouses in the early hours of the morning to chat up the truck drivers and pass out doughnuts. She had every bookseller, distributor, reporter, and reviewer she ever met in her rolodex. She was tireless, but she also targeted her efforts where they'd do some good. Catch her selling books out of the back of a car? As if.

How did she do such a savvy job, not to mention getting all those guest slots? It helped that she was married to Irving Mansfield, a professional publicist, press agent, and television producer, and that her publicist at her first publisher, Bernard Geis Associates, was the talented Letty Pogrebin. Geis did huge amounts of author publicity because back then, houses were either hardcover or softcover but not both, and Geis made a lot of its money via lucrative sales of the softcover rights to its successfully ballyhooed titles.

I remember when Jacqueline Susann's books were coming out, especially the paperbacks. I doubt there was a wire rack in the United States that didn't have copies. No way, not in a million years, is self-marketing ever going to have that kind of reach, or those kind of numbers. Ms. Turner is giving out terrible advice. Hitting the road and trying to sell copies of your book out of the back of your car is a self-defeating low-yield use of a writer's time.
HHP: If you don't know the story about Ms. Susann and her runaway hit, Valley of the Dolls, you should look it up. In a biography written about Jacqueline Susann by Barbara Seaman is this quote:​
Here's the problem: the passage she's about to quote isn't from Barbara Seaman's bio of Jacqueline Susann. It's from a long review/essay on the bio by Ray Tennenbaum. I find it disturbing that she's misrepresenting Tennenbaum's essay, quoting it as advice, and has incorporated it into an important essay on HHP's own website, but apparently hasn't bothered to read the book. Ditto, that she didn't think anyone would notice.
HHP: "Jackie and her husband bought truckloads of her books from the stores which why knew were surveyed for the best-seller lists so as to accelerate demand for the book."​
Here's the real quote:
Ray Tennenbaum: Once "Dolls" was ready to be published, the real work began: the publicity campaign, wherein Jackie excelled at hyping her books in television appearances everywhere. (Ms. Seaman discloses, in a paragraph written with the delicacy of a diplomatic press release, that Jackie and her husband bought truckloads of her books from the stores which why knew were surveyed for the best-sller lists so as to accelerate demand for the book.) She kept at it with two more books until her death in 1974, from of cancer.​
I cherish doubts about that passage. Google Books won't let me see page 310 of the bio, which is where it occurs, so I can't read Barbara Seaman's bit of hyper-finessed prose. This leaves me with what I already know.

1. Retail bookstores don't normally sell single titles by the truckload or the carton. Just having people walk in, buy multiple copies of one title, and walk out again without looking at any other books, is unusual enough to make bookstore sales clerks gossip. I know that because I've seen accounts of it happening with L. Ron Hubbard's Battlefield Earth.

2. No one knows exactly which bookstores and distributors report sales numbers to the guys who compile the New York Times bestseller list. We do know they're located all over the country. There were fewer bookstores per capita in 1966, but still, that's a lot of locations you're going to need people buying up copies for you without talking about it afterward. Are we supposed to believe someone put together an operation like that, used it once, and no one leaked the story? Publicists and press agents may have lots of contacts, but most of those are people who are permanently on the lookout for hot stories they can use themselves or swap for favors.

3. I've never seen a first-person account of dubious purchases of copies of Valley of the Dolls. Since humans aren't good at keeping secrets, I have to assume that if those stories don't exist it's because they don't exist.

4. The POD and self-publishing world has a shaky grasp of mainstream publishing's average sales figures, and no notion of the speed and volume of bestsellerdom. I have two datapoints on the hardcover sales of Valley of the Dolls. The first is that in its 18th week on the list and 15th week at the top, it was holding steady at 8,500 hardcovers a week, which for that time was astonishing. The second datapoint is that the printer couldn't stay supplied with paper. At one point they had to run an edition where every signature was printed on a different paper stock, because that's what they had on hand.

Conclusion: faking bestseller-level hardcover sales would be a major undertaking. I'm not saying it couldn't happen; but it if did, the mechanisms and resources required were and still are completely outside the range of HHP's authors.

It's also dishonest. Just thought I'd throw that in.
HHP: Hey, I say...if it works go for it. And apparently it worked for Jacqueline Susann.​
People ought to double-check this stuff before passing it along as advice to aspiring authors.
HHP: Not one literary critic in the country wrote anything nice about Valley of the Dolls,​
That's because they didn't write anything. I think the hardcover got one review.
HHP: yet it made the New York Bestseller List and became one of the most popular books ever.​
How that book was promoted and sold is a very interesting story. Ms. Turner should read it sometime.
Aliceshortcake: How the heck is this relevant? Susann's book was published by Random House (I think) and was already in bookstores. She didn't buy "truckloads of books" from her publisher! What would have happened if Susann had published Valley of the Dolls through a small independent press with no marketing or distribution to speak of? It's my guess that it would probably have sunk without trace.​
Yes. That's what would have happened.

Bear in mind that Susann's editor at Bernard Geis Associates pretty much rewrote the book. From everything I've heard about the original manuscript of Valley of the Dolls, it was unpublishable, and not in a fun way.

Jacqueline Susann is not the example they're looking for. But then, no one is.
 
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aliceshortcake

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Hapi, congrats on the detective work and thanks for a very informative post! The simple fact that Valley of the Dolls was already on bookstore shelves should have clued Ms Turner in to the fact that the anecdote is irrelevant to High Hill Press, but she seems to filter out anything that doesn't fit into her concept of how commercial publishing works. I hope the people at HHP's marketing meetings read your account and take the Susann story with a pinch (if not a pillar) of salt the next time Ms Turner tells it. And the whole "selling books out of the trunk of your car" thing is so silly - when was the last time you bought a book this way? Do you know anyone else who did? Wouldn't you assume that an author reduced to such desperate straits is probably incapable of writing a saleable/readable book?

The 25% acceptance rate is indeed troubling. Unfortunately, since none of the company's books have a "Look Inside" feature - which automatically puts me off buying them - we have no idea of their quality. And of course we still don't know if HHP expects submissions to have been professionally edited...

I've also noticed that Ms Turner has a habit of referring to one of HHP's authors, Jory Sherman, as "a Pulitzer Prize finalist". Mr Sherman's novel Grass Kingdom was nominated for a Pulitzer but doesn't appear in the list of finalists on the Pulitzer website: (http://www.pulitzer.org/bycat/Fiction). No disrespect to Mr Sherman, but there's a huge difference between being a Pulitzer nominee and a Pulitzer finalist.

But I've wasted enough time spewing vile and unethical rhetoric. Back to work on my adaptation of Seneca's Thyestes!
 
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HapiSofi

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Jory Sherman's a good writer, but she's not doing him any favors with that. Anyone can be a Pulitzer Prize nominee. All it takes is the paperwork and entry fee.

I don't mind High Hill being a regional small press with bitty print runs. That's fine. They have a legitimate place in the world. I do mind its publisher being aggressively ignorant and talking smack about the rest of publishing.
 
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Bloo

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I didn't realize, until this thread and some curoisity, how easy it is to be Pulitzer nominated. I looked in Drama (which is my area of writing), $50, 6 copies of the script, and a video recording (if you have one), and it must have been written and performed in the year you're nominating it for.

The ethical side of me is bothered by this...the side of me that wishes to promote myself at any means neccassary says "go for it" then I bitch slap that little punk and remind him I don't have a piece that was performed in 2012 and to shut up.
 
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victoriastrauss

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Way back in the day, PublishAmerica was touting its "Pulitzer-nominated books." I've seen a number of other dodgy publishers making this claim, relying on the public's ignorance of the actual nomination process.

And then there's the hyping of the faux awards--but that's a different story.

- Victoria
 

aliceshortcake

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Another little Jacqueline Susann-related gem from the High Hill Press blog, posted earlier this year:

It's all new territory, and publishing is going through a pioneer stage that we haven't seen since the 50's. I always tell my audience at a conference or workshop that we're back to the days of Jacqueline Susann, where an author has to fill the trunk of his car and hit the road in order to sell books. Jacqueline sold Valley of the Dolls to truck drivers and nuns as she drove from the east coast to the west. She was a genius at marketing and it slowly pushed her book to the top of the best seller list. She did it all without the initial help of New York.
http://highhillpresspublishing.blogspot.co.uk/2012_04_01_archive.html

Good God - Ms Turner is telling this absurd story at workshops? And the sad thing is that most novice writers will probably take it at face value...because it comes from the CEO of a publishing company. Mind you, I'm rather taken with the image of nuns standing at the side of the road reading Valley of the Dolls as Ms Susann's Bookmobile sets off on the next leg of its journey.

Earlier in that same post we are urged to "Read a Small Press Book Today":

A good thing to do is browse the pages of Amazon, find small presses that sell books on their websites, often at a discount price, and ask at the bookstores for small press books. That is where the treasures are sometimes hidden.

If a small press I come across by sheer chance on Amazon wants me to buy one of their books they'd be well-advised to make use of the "Look Inside" feature. I don't want to risk shelling out good money on a dud. At the moment, no-one who doesn't know a HHP author personally has the faintest idea what the quality of their books is like because there are no extracts available anywhere on the internet.

Elsewhere Ms Turner bemoans the fact that maybe the talented young writers of today "can't take the pressures and heartache of trying to sell a novel in New York City":

But it is sad to think that because we're small and maybe not as well-known as St. Martin's Press, we might not get a query from the next Flannery O'Connor because she doesn't know we exist. And instead of persisting, this new Flannery might quit writing and take up knitting instead.

Please, Ms Turner, think this one through. If the hypothetical next Flannery O'Connor doesn't know HHP exists, neither do the people who might want to buy her book!

Oh, and a bit more information about those awful NY publishers, who have

for the most part, abandoned great stories in exchange for the flashy unauthorized tell all, the political bloviating disguised as literature, every new diet craze to come down the pike, and big name authors who sometimes appear to be doing nothing more than fulfilling a contract...

Don’t expect your publisher to give you free books. Especially with a small press. Even the New York publishing houses make the author purchase any books that they might want to sell on their own. And it’s common knowledge, that in most cases, that’s the only way you’re going to sell[my bolding]. You should receive a substantial discount, but you will have to purchase books.
http://highhillpresspublishing.blogspot.co.uk/

:Jaw: WHAT? Does Ms Turner seriously believe that, even if you're published by one of the big NY houses, the only way you can sell books is by purchasing them from the publisher at a discount and re-selling them?
 
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victoriastrauss

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I wonder if she's conflating Jacqueline Susann with John Grisham. That "selling books out of the trunk of the car" thing is an item in the widespread Internet myth that Grisham self-published his first novel.

- Victoria
 

victoriastrauss

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WHAT? Does Ms Turner seriously believe that, even if you're published by one of the big NY houses, the only way you can sell books is by purchasing them from the publisher at a discount and re-selling them?
Every publishing contract I've had from the big houses has prohibited me from re-selling books I buy from the publisher at my author's discount.

You know, I'm thinking it may be time for a name change, to High Horse Press.

- Victoria
 

calieber

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During the recent U.S. election, I found myself frequently reacting to statements by my candidate's opponent with the thought, "is he stupid, or does he think I am?"

So with Ms. Turner: is she ignorant about the publishing world, or does she think I am? Or both?

I'm seeing a lot of hopes-and-dreams language in her posts here, and in the quotes from the HHP Web site. Is it possible she genuinely doesn't know any better?
 

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Every publishing contract I've had from the big houses has prohibited me from re-selling books I buy from the publisher at my author's discount.

Same here. And generally, when I ask about purchasing more than the 25 or 50 print books my contract promises me, they ask if it's for PR/reviews, and then send me more, at no charge.
 

BenPanced

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's'funny, because shortly after I first saw the film version of Valley of the Dolls, I got the book (more shockingly bad than the movie) from the library and later did more research about Susann, her life, and her writing career. Because that's the kind of guy I am. This was about 1981 or 1982, long before the days you could look anything up in a second on Google or Goodsearch, when you had to use the Readers' Guide to Periodical Literature, write down the list of magazines and newspapers you were interested in reading, and hope against hope the material you were looking for was in the stacks and not already checked out. 50 miles to school, uphill both ways, snow, barefoot, dinosaurs were both pets and food, etc. Even then, though, a little research went a long way. Even then, as well, many experts weren't challenged on their assertions because they're the experts so why wouldn't you accept their word?
 

HapiSofi

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Aliceshortcake: Another little Jacqueline Susann-related gem from the High Hill Press blog, posted earlier this year:​
HHP: It's all new territory, and publishing is going through a pioneer stage that we haven't seen since the 50's.​
Back when I started working in the industry, I got to meet some of the real oldtimers who pioneered the midcentury publishing boom. These were the guys who built the mass-market sales and distribution systems that put wire racks of paperbacks into groceries, drugstores, stationers, five-and-dimes, bus terminals, corner newsstands, and convenience stores all over the United States.

In the mid-50s, there were 600-700 bookstores in the U.S., and most of them were located in big cities, university towns, and New England. People forget that now. Many large areas had no bookstores. Department stores might or might not have a small area set aside for books. If it hadn't been for mass-market paperbacks, towns like the one where I grew up would have had no book retailers.

The sales and distribution guys who built that system, and the pioneering editors who put books into them, knew the technicalities of their business inside and out. They had to; it was a weirdly ingenious jury-rigged system that piggybacked on the magazine distribution system. A spinner rack of paperbacks in a grocery store wasn't competing with other reading material; it was competing for square feet of aisle space with manufacturers' displays of cookies or laundry detergent or canned peas. It took a great deal of specialized expertise to operate in that market.

The little storefront bookstore chains came along in the 70s and 80s, followed by big-box stores like Barnes & Noble, online bookselling, audio books, and e-books. Along the way we've become habitual book buyers and readers, with broad tastes and a sophisticated familiarity with genres and packaging. Forget what you've heard about declining literacy; it's BS. People are reading more, reading more widely, and keeping the reading habit later in life than they ever did before. And because there's been that marketplace, and the immensely complex mechanisms that furnish it with a constant supply of new books, there are many more titles getting published, and many more authors getting paid for writing them.

None of those developments were inevitable. All of them took hard work.

Louella Turner is one of the inheritors of that vast feat of literary and commercial engineering. She doesn't care about it, and she isn't interested in learning more. She has no idea how impossible her little publishing operation would have been forty years ago. She just takes the whole thing for granted, complains that High Hill Press isn't better known, and spreads stupid misleading fairy tales about how books get sold.

HHP is a vanity publishing operation, but that vanity is its publisher's, not her authors'.
HHP: I always tell my audience at a conference or workshop
This woman teaches workshops? Shoot me now.
HHP: that we're back to the days of Jacqueline Susann,
Valley of the Dolls was published in 1966. It had nothing to do with the 1950s.
HHP: where an author has to fill the trunk of his car and hit the road in order to sell books.​
That's not how any author sold their books. It's certainly not how Jacqueline Susann did it. (See my previous posts.)
HHP: Jacqueline sold Valley of the Dolls to truck drivers and nuns
The actual connection between truckers and Jacqueline Susann: Once the paperback edition had come out, she'd go out to the loading docks of the big distributors' warehouses at three or four in the morning, and schmooze and hand out coffee and doughnuts to the guys who loaded paperbacks onto the trucks. No one had ever done that before. The guys loading the trucks appreciated the attention. This increased the chances that cartons of her books would make it onto the truck, get racked at the other end, and sell.

I have no idea how the nuns got added to the story.
HHP: as she drove from the east coast to the west.
This is pure folklore: The Epic Coast-to-Coast Book-Pushing Journey of Jacqueline Susann! ... which never happened.

Considering how much of Susann's self-promotion consisted of television appearances, I have to wonder what Ms. Turner imagines she was doing in the interior of the continent.
HHP: She was a genius at marketing​
She was good at self-promotion. Her husband was better. The full marketing and promotion apparatus of the conventional publishing industry and the mainstream media was also helping to sell her. It is a complete and utter misrepresentation of the actual events to depict Jacqueline Susann as a brave solitary author traveling those lonely blue highways. Few authors have ever been as cozy with the national media, or benefited so much from her publishers' promotion and support.
HHP: and it slowly pushed her book to the top of the best seller list.​
Slowly, my ass. That book went up like a rocket.
HHP: She did it all without the initial help of New York.​
Okay, that does it.

I wanted to believe that Louella Turner and her husband were just misinformed, but that last statement is outside the range of honest error. I'm sorry. That's a lie. From the moment Jacqueline Susann sold the rights to publish Valley of the Dolls, she and her book had the full support and backing of New York publishing at every step along the way.
Aliceshortcake: Good God - Ms Turner is telling this absurd story at workshops? And the sad thing is that most novice writers will probably take it at face value...because it comes from the CEO of a publishing company.​
There are novice writers out there right now buying books about how you can infallibly make your book a bestseller, written by self-appointed experts who have never made a single commercial sale, much less had a bestseller. Other novice writers are running up huge student loan debts in order to attend university-level creative writing programs where the department chair has never sold a book. Believing a word Ms. Turner says may be a bad idea, but in terms of pure abstract stupidity it's still some distance from the end of the scale.
Aliceshortcake: Mind you, I'm rather taken with the image of nuns standing at the side of the road reading Valley of the Dolls as Ms Susann's Bookmobile sets off on the next leg of its journey.​
Oooh! I want there to be urban legends about the Phantom Hitchhiker who vanishes from the back seat of your car before you reach her supposed destination, only instead of leaving her sweater on your back seat, she sells you a copy of Valley of the Dolls. Afterward, you discover it was the ghost of Jacqueline Susann, the eternal self-promoting author, doomed to forever wander the dark fields of the republic.
Aliceshortcake: Elsewhere Ms Turner bemoans the fact that maybe the talented young writers of today "can't take the pressures and heartache of trying to sell a novel in New York City":​
HHP: But it is sad to think that because we're small and maybe not as well-known as St. Martin's Press, we might not get a query from the next Flannery O'Connor because she doesn't know we exist. And instead of persisting, this new Flannery might quit writing and take up knitting instead.​
Is this the same woman who was saying that if you're not prepared to hit the road and devote yourself to hopeless book promotion, you're not ready to be published? Because selling a novel to NYC publishers is a lot easier. What you mostly have to do is write the sort of book your fellow human beings want to buy and read.

I have real trouble imagining writers who find out only after selling their books to SMP that they could have sold them to High Hill Press instead, and become so distraught over this discovery that they quit writing and take up knitting instead. In my experience, people either like knitting or they don't. Selling a book to SMP won't change that.

Further Turneralia on those awful NYC publishers. Apparently, they:
HHP: for the most part, abandoned great stories in exchange for the flashy unauthorized tell all, the political bloviating disguised as literature, every new diet craze to come down the pike, and big name authors who sometimes appear to be doing nothing more than fulfilling a contract...​
Check. I've seen this sort of rhetoric before. There's only one real answer: I'm sorry your book got rejected.
HHP: Don’t expect your publisher to give you free books.​
Malarkey. High Hill Press may not give its authors free copies, but we do it all the time. It's right there in the contract. And if you want to push for more free copies in your next contract, you'll probably get those too.

I'm still wondering whether Ms. Turner's been run through the mill at Publish America.
HHP: Especially with a small press.​
If she wants to cheap out on author copies, it's her call. Leave us out of it.
HHP: Even the New York publishing houses make the author purchase any books that they might want to sell on their own.​
That's not the same thing as free author copies. That's unfairly competing with your publisher.
HHP: And it’s common knowledge, that in most cases, that’s the only way you’re going to sell.​
Liar, liar, pants on fire.

We put a lot of effort into selling our books. We're good at it, too. Our authors don't have to go out and peddle their own books. They can stay at home and write, and still rack up sales far in excess of HHP's.

What Ms. Turner is actually saying is that if you publish with HHP, they won't lift a finger to help you sell your books. Only she doesn't want to own it, so she's saying all publishers do that.

They don't.
 
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Bloo

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I have two plays at a small epub play house. Part of my contract states that if I want to put on the play, I can for free. I don't have to buy the rights to my play even though I've sold it to them, they just ask that I let them know I intend on producing and/or directing the show. To me, as a playwright, that is akin to getting free books from the publisher for the purposes of promotion.

This is not Samuel French or Dramatist. This is a small epub house based out of Montana. Just further proof that they don't know how it works (HHP that is)
 

HapiSofi

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Does AW do fan art? I want someone to draw a cartoon of the nuns and the bookmobile.