Simple things that a lot of Fantasy Writers get wrong in their books....

Status
Not open for further replies.

SianaBlackwood

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 21, 2012
Messages
735
Reaction score
99
Location
Australia
Website
sb.siasan.com
How about farming and the distribution of goods? For example, huge fields of some crop in a world that doesn't have the technology to take care of a farm that size, or an entire province that's just dedicated to producing one particular product.

If a region only grew one thing, they'd have to be able to import everything else they needs to support their population. While that's not impossible, it means there's a whole transport infrastructure that just has to be available. People have to live near rivers or along major roads (which you have to be able to build and maintain).

It's not even stuff that has to be a significant part of the story, but it is stuff that makes it pretty easy to see whether the author understands how their world works.
 

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 24, 2011
Messages
23,124
Reaction score
10,887
Location
Where faults collide
Website
doggedlywriting.blogspot.com
I do remember reading a story where the people were eating some kind of fish that likely wouldn't have been available (fresh at least) in their mountain town. And yes, sizable towns out in the middle of nowhere (not along a river, coast or trade route) were not something you saw all that often in pre-industrial societies. People in the modern world don't always realize how profoundly things like railroads, automobiles, and later airports, affect where people can have viable communities.

There are also little biological things I notice (being a biologist). Like tuna being caught in a fresh water lake or some kind of fresh fruit being available completely out of season when it's not something that would keep through the off season. Now it's possible for a king or noble to have some kind of hothouse where some things at least could be grown out of season, but I doubt commoners would have access to a peach in January, unless magic is involved or the character in question lives in his/her world's southern hemisphere.
 
Last edited:

rockhazard

I'll break in and eat your cookies!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 1, 2010
Messages
212
Reaction score
33
Location
floating castles in my mind
It is for these reasons that I most often invent my foodstuff out of whole cloth. No one can tell me where banaca berries grow, thank you very much! And yes, as a matter of fact, hala trees do bear fruit in the Winter... :D
 

shadowwalker

empty-nester!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 8, 2010
Messages
5,601
Reaction score
598
Location
SE Minnesota
Don't have longships with hatches and below decks. I'll scoff at you unless you explain that these aren't Viking Longships, but fantasy-culture "longships" and then I'm fine with it.

Why would I assume that they're Viking longships to begin with? It's a fantasy, not a Viking historical. The people in the fantasy call it a longship, and describe what their longship looks like.
 
Joined
Jun 29, 2008
Messages
11,042
Reaction score
841
Location
Second star on the right and on 'til morning.
Website
atsiko.wordpress.com
Why would I assume that they're Viking longships to begin with? It's a fantasy, not a Viking historical. The people in the fantasy call it a longship, and describe what their longship looks like.


Longship is a word, and it has a meaning referring to a specific type of ship. If the ship isn't a longship, just call it a (generic) ship and move on.

I mean, why would I assume that a poplar tree doesn't bear apples? It's fantasy after all.
 

Alexandra Little

What a desolation.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 2, 2007
Messages
1,111
Reaction score
174
Location
Los Angeles
It can be tricky, because there are only so many names to refer to so many things, and you can end up in a rabbit/smerp situation. So if you create a ship that perhaps vaguely resembles a Viking longship but has nothing to do with Vikings, what do you call it to give the reader some idea of what you're talking about? A longership? A longnarrowship? A longboat, even though that already has a meaning? Or a smerp, even though nobody is going to be able to picture what a smerp ship looks like?

At some point, you just have to pick the closest word and trust that the readers know your longship has nothing to do with Vikings.
 

Graylorne

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 23, 2012
Messages
269
Reaction score
7
Location
Roosendaal, Netherlands
Website
www.paulhorsman-author.com
Part of the art of writing is creating mental images. When you use the term longship you create an image in most people's minds of the ships the Vikings used. The people in your story don't necessary have to be Vikings, but the ships should look more or less the same. If it doesn't look like a longship, call it something else. You're not serving your readers by creating conflicting images.
 

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 24, 2011
Messages
23,124
Reaction score
10,887
Location
Where faults collide
Website
doggedlywriting.blogspot.com
I mean, why would I assume that a poplar tree doesn't bear apples? It's fantasy after all.

When everyone knows they bear popcorn! Unless it's a historic setting and the new world, and corn, haven't been discovered by Europeans yet, of course :D

Seriously, though, I'm willing to forgive some fairly large things in fantasy. I've even come to expect fairly large deviations from historic reality in novels that are set in "other worlds" that have a quasi historic setting. I tend to assume that a fantasy world will be different from "real" history and not track our social development exactly.

Actually, I prefer fantasy worlds that are not simply "copies" of the "real" middle ages in Europe. I really don't relate that much to worlds or settings where girls are married off by age 14, women are always treated as chattel, everyone just blindly accepts what their priests tell them, there is absolutely no chance of rising about your birth station, and no one takes a bath all winter (and people chew garlic to sweeten their breath--ick).

My modern bias predisposes me to want a story with some of the stresses and limitations of a pre-industrial society (for instance, a message may take several days to get somewhere, and thus, plot-driving misunderstandings arise), but the protagonist doesn't die at the hands of a bumbling physician/chiurgeon the first time she incurs a significant injury and she doesn't get sidelined by a pregnancy or stoned as an adulteress if she embraces her sexuality.

Funny to worry about a fresh water tuna or the wrong kind of fruit for the climate in such a setting. But sometimes it is the "little things," like a fresh peach out of season, that knock one out. Funny how that is.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 29, 2008
Messages
11,042
Reaction score
841
Location
Second star on the right and on 'til morning.
Website
atsiko.wordpress.com
Part of the art of writing is creating mental images. When you use the term longship you create an image in most people's minds of the ships the Vikings used. The people in your story don't necessary have to be Vikings, but the ships should look more or less the same. If it doesn't look like a longship, call it something else. You're not serving your readers by creating conflicting images.


^That. It's not tricky at all. Call the thing a ship, or a boat, depending on size, etc. Those are generic terms that have a semantic prototype, but don't really raise any specific cultural or architectural associations like "longship" or "galley" do. Call it a ship and describe it as much as you feel is necessary. You'd be doing the same thing if you called it a longship, except then you are creating an expectation only to tear it down. whereas with a generic "ship" you aren't.


Roxxsmom said:
Seriously, though, I'm willing to forgive some fairly large things in fantasy. I've even come to expect fairly large deviations from historic reality in novels that are set in "other worlds" that have a quasi historic setting. I tend to assume that a fantasy world will be different from "real" history and not track our social development exactly.

I think you're missing the point that is being made. You also may not care about the point, of course, but from your comment it seems like the former is true. It's not about tracking development. It's about using analogies to real-world cultures and technology correctly and in a way that enhances the reader's understanding and enjoyment of the story rather than detracting from it. An ignorant reader is not going to complain because you were too accurate, as long as you don't rub it in their face, but an informed reader is very likely to be upset about whatever error or misconception the author has, especially if it relates to the reader's pet hobby or area of interest. It doesn't take that much effort to get things right, so why not do it? You lose nothing and could gain vocal proponents of your work. As much as people on AW bitch about inaccuracy, I see many of them singing an author' praises far and wide when they get things right. Why not take advantage of that? Or just do the best work you can, because you enjoy it?

Actually, I prefer fantasy worlds that are not simply "copies" of the "real" middle ages in Europe. I really don't relate that much to worlds or settings where girls are married off by age 14, women are always treated as chattel, everyone just blindly accepts what their priests tell them, there is absolutely no chance of rising about your birth station, and no one takes a bath all winter (and people chew garlic to sweeten their breath--ick).

While I on occasion enjoy a book that is very historically accurate, partially because they are just so rare, I have no desire at all to require authors to stick to purely historical facts and conceptions. What I do prefer is that they make these alterations out of reasonable consideration rather than just being pig-ignorant.

I cited Robert Jordan's handling of equine limitations earlier. He decided to change a small facet of reality, but he acknowledged that normally, even in his own created universe, that's not really the way horses work. He even made it a bit of a plot point, and as many issues as I have with him, I totally respect him for being aware of the realities.


My modern bias predisposes me to want a story with some of the stresses and limitations of a pre-industrial society (for instance, a message may take several days to get somewhere, and thus, plot-driving misunderstandings arise), but the protagonist doesn't die at the hands of a bumbling physician/chiurgeon the first time she incurs a significant injury and she doesn't get sidelined by a pregnancy or stoned as an adulteress if she embraces her sexuality.


I'm much more willing to forgive errors/alterations in terms of narrative or speculative elements, especially those that are conventions of the genre such as the ones you describe above. But strictly factual errors, or uses of poor or inaccurate description that could have easily been avoided irritate me.
 

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 24, 2011
Messages
23,124
Reaction score
10,887
Location
Where faults collide
Website
doggedlywriting.blogspot.com
I think we agree there Liosse. That's what I was trying to say, at least.

Sometimes it's those little inaccuracies that don't have to be there that knock a reader out.

But I think a writer can definitely go overboard with trying to explain/justify everything in their setting too.
 
Joined
Jun 29, 2008
Messages
11,042
Reaction score
841
Location
Second star on the right and on 'til morning.
Website
atsiko.wordpress.com
I think we agree there Liosse. That's what I was trying to say, at least.

Sometimes it's those little inaccuracies that don't have to be there that knock a reader out.

But I think a writer can definitely go overboard with trying to explain/justify everything in their setting too.



Absolutely. And that can be even more annoying. XD
 

Saanen

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 12, 2018
Messages
1,093
Reaction score
115
Sometimes it's the little things that make me start to notice bigger problems with a book. Like, I'll notice the peach in January issue and then I realize that the small-town mayor is wearing silk without any indication of silkworm cultivation or distant trade routes, and then I start seeing actual plot holes. My suspension of disbelief will only take so much pummeling.

My pet peeve is homespun cloth. I'm a handspinner and while I don't expect authors to get all the details right about cloth and yarn and spinning--or even go into detail at all unless it's necessary to the plot--I do expect an author to know what homespun means. So often I see it used as a disparaging term in a society that's preindustrialized, meaning that everyone has to wear homespun. Because, you know, that's where yarn/thread was spun before spinning and weaving mills.

Slightly related pet peeves: Preindustrial society but no one raises sheep. Where does the wool for those homespun wool cloaks come from? Or they raise sheep, but inexplicably no one is eating mutton or lamb (just because we're big beef-eaters here in the U.S. doesn't mean that's the case everywhere or everywhen; you eat what you have).
 

Reziac

Resident Alien
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 20, 2010
Messages
7,451
Reaction score
1,177
Location
Brendansport, Sagitta IV
Website
www.offworldpress.com
My pet peeve is climate.

Folks struggling along in -40 temps, wearing gloves.

Folks struggling along in the desert, without bothering to bring water, let alone a hat.

Etc.

Everyone on Darkover and Finisterre perished of hypothermia in the first, or at most the 2nd generation....

[Having lived and worked outdoors in both extremely cold and extremely hot climates, it's obvious to me when the author not only lacks that experience, but also makes poor assumptions based on hisser own mild climate.]
 
Joined
Jun 29, 2008
Messages
11,042
Reaction score
841
Location
Second star on the right and on 'til morning.
Website
atsiko.wordpress.com
My pet peeve is climate.

Folks struggling along in -40 temps, wearing gloves.

Folks struggling along in the desert, without bothering to bring water, let alone a hat.

Etc.

Everyone on Darkover and Finisterre perished of hypothermia in the first, or at most the 2nd generation....

[Having lived and worked outdoors in both extremely cold and extremely hot climates, it's obvious to me when the author not only lacks that experience, but also makes poor assumptions based on hisser own mild climate.]



Gloves. Heh. XD
 

shadowwalker

empty-nester!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 8, 2010
Messages
5,601
Reaction score
598
Location
SE Minnesota
Longship is a word, and it has a meaning referring to a specific type of ship. If the ship isn't a longship, just call it a (generic) ship and move on.

I mean, why would I assume that a poplar tree doesn't bear apples? It's fantasy after all.

Yes, let's not get too farfetched with the fantasy element. After all, readers will never go for such things as buttercups that spill when jostled. :Shrug:
 

Phaeal

Whatever I did, I didn't do it.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2008
Messages
9,232
Reaction score
1,897
Location
Providence, RI
It is for these reasons that I most often invent my foodstuff out of whole cloth. No one can tell me where banaca berries grow, thank you very much! And yes, as a matter of fact, hala trees do bear fruit in the Winter... :D

LOL, I'm a stickler for this kind of detail. I almost stopped reading The Hunger Games when Katniss and Gayle were collecting strawberries and blackberries on the same day.
 

Ariella

...
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 31, 2007
Messages
211
Reaction score
54
Location
Toronto
Little bloopers throw me out of books too, at least temporarily. One that made me laugh out loud recently was the scene in a well-received fantasy novel where a character treated a headache with tea made from the inner bark of a birch tree. Willow bark is the stuff with salicylic acid in it. Birch bark will just give you some diarrhoea to go with your headache.

I think fantasy authors need to take more trouble than other writers to establish the credibility of their world. If we want readers to believe in impossible things like magic or dragons, we have to appear totally plausible on the other details of the story. Too much implausibility, and people start to remember that they're reading something written by a modern person who's spent a lot of their life secluded in the basement in front of the computer.

The main things that seem to trip authors up are the activites that are neither easy nor cheap for most people to experience in person today: horseback riding, sword arts and outdoor adventures. I can always tell when a writer has no real experience with these things, even when they don't make any egregious mistakes. Some authors can get away with fudging the details if they're really strong in other areas, but it still detracts from their stories.

As an under-employed urbanite myself, I can sympathize with the difficulties involved in trying to learn obscure skills, but I think we have a responsibility to seek out chances to find out about them whenever an opportunity occurs. For instance, a couple of weeks ago, I was at a demo put on by my local mounted police unit, chatting up cops about the craziest things they'd ever done on horseback. The research material is out there if you go looking for it.
 

Buffysquirrel

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 12, 2008
Messages
6,137
Reaction score
694
An ignorant reader is not going to complain because you were too accurate

No, they definitely will, if your accuracy conflicts with what they think they know. Like a friend of mine who got dissed by someone who thought concrete was a recent invention.

I have a story (unpublished and probably unpublishable) where a character is puzzling over why another character's horse hasn't run away from the Big Scary Dragon. Finally he concludes it must be bespelled.
 
Joined
Jun 29, 2008
Messages
11,042
Reaction score
841
Location
Second star on the right and on 'til morning.
Website
atsiko.wordpress.com
No, they definitely will, if your accuracy conflicts with what they think they know. Like a friend of mine who got dissed by someone who thought concrete was a recent invention.

I have a story (unpublished and probably unpublishable) where a character is puzzling over why another character's horse hasn't run away from the Big Scary Dragon. Finally he concludes it must be bespelled.

Ah, you got me there. Totally forgot about concrete.
 

Saanen

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 12, 2018
Messages
1,093
Reaction score
115
LOL, I'm a stickler for this kind of detail. I almost stopped reading The Hunger Games when Katniss and Gayle were collecting strawberries and blackberries on the same day.

I haven't read The Hunger Games so I don't know what climate that world is set in or if the plants were wild or cultivated, but this year I was getting my first (wild) blackberries at the end of May. Strawberries don't grow wild around here, though.
 

Mr Flibble

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 6, 2008
Messages
18,889
Reaction score
5,029
Location
We couldn't possibly do that. Who'd clear up the m
Website
francisknightbooks.co.uk
LOL, I'm a stickler for this kind of detail. I almost stopped reading The Hunger Games when Katniss and Gayle were collecting strawberries and blackberries on the same day.

I can do that in my garden (w have really mild winters etc, I can pick strawberries in June to September, blackberries in August through November and roses on Christmas day)


My pet peeve...an author not really thinking through the implications of the Cool Thing About Their World

And I bet that's going to come back and bite me on the arse : D But yeah, I change society like this. And it should change things like that. Only it all stays the same as it is on this world, here and now...


This really grates.
 

Margarita

Waltzes with Wapitis
Registered
Joined
Nov 25, 2012
Messages
19
Reaction score
3
Location
The Rocky Mountains
Back to horses

As long as any fantasy is internally consistent I am willing to overlook anachronisms and suspend reality in general. But if people get tired in a story I assume horses are going to get tired, too, unless I've been given a good reason why they shouldn't.

To say horses are active 23 hours a day is inaccurate. Horses are prey animals who get their rest in several short periods throughout the day amounting to about two and half hours a day. Considerably more than half an average horse day is spent in standing rest and/or grazing. "Active" is a relative term.;)

Even the US Army had sense enough to spare their animals on long trips, generally alternating several minutes of trotting with several minutes of walking and allowing adequate time for feeding and watering the animals (never mind the men). I see no reason why fantasy novels should be any less sensible unless, of course, fantastical horses are in use.
 

Roxxsmom

Beastly Fido
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 24, 2011
Messages
23,124
Reaction score
10,887
Location
Where faults collide
Website
doggedlywriting.blogspot.com
Slightly related pet peeves: Preindustrial society but no one raises sheep. Where does the wool for those homespun wool cloaks come from? Or they raise sheep, but inexplicably no one is eating mutton or lamb (just because we're big beef-eaters here in the U.S. doesn't mean that's the case everywhere or everywhen; you eat what you have).

Lol, the country most of my current novel takes place in is a bit like Northern England (or perhaps the Pacific Northewest) and Scotland in terms of climate and topography (coastal, hilly and foggy/rainy and cool to cold for much of the year), so they have a lot of wool and they eat a lot of lamb and mutton. Also they eat a lot of salmon, which is a delicacy further south.
 

rockhazard

I'll break in and eat your cookies!
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 1, 2010
Messages
212
Reaction score
33
Location
floating castles in my mind
LOL, I'm a stickler for this kind of detail. I almost stopped reading The Hunger Games when Katniss and Gayle were collecting strawberries and blackberries on the same day.

Yeah, I learned early that these sort of things can annoy readers, so I just avoid them whenever doing so is practical. What worries me are the things I can't catch, because I don't know to look for them. As Donald Rumsfeld once famously said, "There are known unknowns and unknown unknowns." In other words, there are things we know we don't know, and other things we don't know about at all -- so we only learn about them the hard way. It usually involves much tripping and planting of faces on hard surfaces. If we are lucky, this doesn't include staircases.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.