Standing Desks....

JayMan said:

...and I have just made myself a standing desk by placing a large cardboard box atop my desk and setting my laptop on it.

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Brilliant!

JayMan said:

That's just the thing, though--increasing the time spent exercising won't erase the effects of sitting. I've been reading studies and articles on this for a while now, and even after adjusting for all the usual variables, the studies seem to point to the conclusion that amount of time spent sitting is what is so unhealthy. Even if you run or bike or walk for an hour or two a day, it doesn't counterbalance sitting at a desk for eight hours. Yes, exercise is good, but the research appears to show that sitting for long periods is bad, regardless of whether you exercise or not.

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That's what I've heard too--that working out at the gym three times a week won't offset the harm of sitting for hours at a time every day.

I seem to recall the long periods of sitting increase things like inflammation and insulin resistance.

I've also heard that people who switch to a standing desk spend about a week hating it with a crimson, searing passion, then stop noticing it.

I'd invest in a nice thick yoga mat for my poor feet, I think, but switching to a standing desk is something I've been considering doing.

Alternately, maybe I'll set a timer and spend two minutes skipping rope every half hour. Probably just as good, and potentially way cheaper.

Bergen said:

I'm just surprised more people here don't have standing desks. I'm a bit reluctant to buy one without know if they're useful.

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After walking six miles, I like to sit down. I move a lot while I'm sitting, as I shift position, fidget and swap out my cushions. I get up frequently to stretch. And I stop for longer breaks to exercise. But overall, I need to be sitting, because I spend the rest of my time on my feet.

The whole thing seems to be aimed at people who don't exercise as much as they should, as a way to make them feel better about it. That isn't a good thing. Neither standing or sitting replaces exercise. Whatever sort of desk you have, you need to take regular breaks to move around, preferably with a few longer breaks for more serious exercise. Learning not to sit/stand completely still is also a good thing. But you don't magically get that from a standing desk.

Now, attaching a laptop to the front of a treadmill would work to give you more exercise while writing. Though again, I wouldn't want to, as I do need breaks from exercise.

Hint:

Standing is not synonymous with exercise. Now, if somebody can invent a jogging desk, or a weightlifting desk, that might have some value. A standing desk is synonymous with a pain-in-the-ass desk.

caw

JayMan said:

...and I have just made myself a standing desk by placing a large cardboard box atop my desk and setting my laptop on it.

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I did something like this. I've discovered it is REALLY hard on the feet and knees if I'm working for more than an hour or two at a time. Even one of those anti-fatigue mats didn't help much. Wish I could afford a treadmill!

- Victoria

frankiebrown said:

I'm so excited to see this thread! I'm kind of a health nut, so sitting down for long periods of time (like while I'm writing) makes me feel like a slob. My boyfriend's in the process of building a big, sturdy standing desk for me. Oak's not that expensive at Lowe's and building it doesn't look to be that complicated. I can't wait for it to be finished

Also, if anyone's interested, this article's a good read.
"The simple act of standing up instead of sitting may help you burn as many as 50 more calories per hour, depending on your size. Although 50 calories may not seem like a lot in a 2,000-calorie day, making the standing adjustment for four hours out of the day can burn an extra 200 calories a day--leading to a 20 lb. weight loss over the course of a year. Standing more often also contributes to an overall better sense of well-being and health... Standing qualifies as non-exercise activity thermogenisis, also known as NEAT, which encompasses those everyday activities that help burn calories, such as fidgeting, gesturing and shivering. Adding these types of activity creates a bigger calorie burn and assists in weight loss. Standing often leads to other movement, such as pacing while on the phone or walking to the copier. All these small movements add up to more calories burned over the course of the day."

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Tell that to the arthritis in my spine, hip, and knees.

I put my laptop up on a bunch of old phone books with a bit of non-skid rubber left over from lining kitchen shelves so it doesn't slide around.

Took a bit of work to get the right height.

I'm moving around as I surf: wiggling, stretching, shaking out the ankles, shifting foot to foot, doing shallow knee bends.

Do I get any writing done? No. I want to sit when I write, but for surfing, this standing stuff is a winner.

Being a lazy sort, I tend to surf (pretending it's research), follow bunny trails, waste writing time on YouTube, obsessively check email and the newsfeed on Facebook. All of that takes hours when I'm sitting, because I goof off way too much.

Today I wound things up in 10 minutes and took the laptop to my old recliner to write. I can't write standing up, but dang, it's great for getting scutwork out of the way fast.

My new standing desk has definitely added hours to my day.

Don't buy a whole desk when you can MacGyver one together for a test run. Finally, a use for those encyclopedias you bought before the Internet got big!

For those who are Facebook addicts, I cut down wasting time there by unsubscribing to people I don't actually know. I hide their posts. They're still "friends" and they still see MY posts, but I don't see theirs, just those of friends I personally know.

I'm wasting less time there now.

I'm also spending less time here on AW. Typed this while standing. My feet are sore and telling me to go back to the recliner, put them up, and write.

Sounds like a plan.

I don't think standing in one place for hours at a time is any more healthy than sitting, you're just putting your weight on different joints, bones and muscles. We're not made to to just stand around or sit around, we're made to move and rest. So just mix it up Go for walks, sit down to write, do some chores, stand at a desk if you like, curl up on the couch and read...just don't subject your body to doing one and the same thing for hours on end. that's what's unhealthy.

Oh, a standing desk thread! I enjoy these because I'm kind of obsessed with finding the perfect workspace. Being small, I have endless trouble with ergonomics.

I like working standing up, and I hate sitting for hours on end. Sitting for very long kills my joints and fills me with hypochondria about my circulation. However, I suspect standing for hours on end is probably just as bad. I have discovered that alternating frequently is best, but how to deal with the difference in height? Constantly moving the desk top computer is not going to happen.

I recently hit on a solution that is so obvious I feel like an idiot for not thinking of it sooner. Drafting table!

We're used to seeing drafting tables tilted, but they can be set flat, too. Adjust the table to one's ideal standing height for work, and then provide oneself with a draftsman's task chair or bar stool, higher than a regular desk chair. Get one with a footrest for comfort. Now one can stand and, when one gets tired of standing, one can sit, without having to adjust work height.

Naturally in my life, I can't afford a drafting table at the moment, and also don't have room for one. So I'm considering just jacking up the desk I do have to the needed height and getting the taller chair.

ETA: Actually, now that I think of it, if I want to be ambitious, I could put my big old heavy oak rolltop desk on supports, too, as well as the computer desk, because the rolltop has the file drawers, and I hate having to bend over to go through my working files. Raising the drawers higher would be more comfortable, too.

frankiebrown said:

Awesome!

The idea behind the standing desk is to minimize a person time sitting (duh!) and increase their non-exercise activity thermogenesis (NEAT), which is proven to promote overall health. The idea being that little things such as fidgeting, walking, stretching or even shifting your weight from foot to foot add up.

And I know that some of you have said that you'd need more incentive than a few extra calories, but I think it's worth it. The human body isn't made to sit at a desk all day... maybe standing at a desk will encourage a person to pace, or stretch or even do a squat at the computer. That's my plan. And I know it'll be a lot easier to do with a standing desk.

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The human body isn't made to stand up all day, either. In fact, I'd say we're built to sit with great frequency, and with short but intense aerobic activity.

Hunting came before agriculture, and hunting has always been mostly sitting and waiting. War is the same way. A lot of sitting and waiting, and then relatively brief periods of intense activity.

There's no way standing for eight hours each day is good for anyone. It takes a tremendous toll on the lower body. I know a LOT more people with health problems caused by jobs where they have to stand all day than the other way around.

Extremism is almost always a bad idea. Just because you sit comfortably and write does not mean you can't get up and move around for a few minutes every hour, and certainly doesn't mean you have to sit there for eight hours. A healthy lifestyle is about balance.

There are certainly exceptions to unGodly long hours sitting. Dean Koontz says he often writes for seventy hours each week, and does so while sitting down. Yet he's in pretty good shape.

Most writers I know do not put in enough hours for a standing desk to matter. Even most pro writers I've known put in only four or five hours per day, tops, and almost always break up the time.

I'm the same way. I write five hours per day, but it is not one long sit. I put in two and a half hours in the morning, and move around for a few minutes every hour. Then I take a long lunch, a longer walk, and put in another two and a half hours in the afternoon.

Most new writers I've known are lucky to get in ten hours per week.

But however much time you have, sitting or standing all day without long breaks is a bad idea.

It may be true that no one should spend eight straight hours sitting, but it's certainly true that no one should spend eight straight hours standing day after day, either.

Comfort matters. If you like a standing desk, if it makes you more comfortable, then it's probably a good idea. But the same is true for sitting.

And neither one is real exercise. Either you make time for real aerobic activity on a regular basis, or your body is going to suffer the consequences.

Agreed. All depends how long you intend standing at the desk.

I wouldn't thank anyone for a standing desk if I were expected to stand there for eight hours a day.

I have no doubt it will benefit some to stand for certain periods but without parameters I reckon it's a fad, the sustained benefits of which should be taken with a dose of salts, or clarity as to the precise time to be spent there.

Bergen said:

I'm still surprised nobody really uses them. I was in Norway a couple weeks ago and all the "hip" researchers were using them. Of course, they also wore those god awful plastic/rubber shoes, what are they called? The slip ons that Brett Farve was wearing when he took the picture of little Brett Farve?

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Bergen said:

Yes...as go the Norwegians, so go us all! Although, I've never been a fan of lutefisk!!!

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JayMan said:

That's just the thing, though--increasing the time spent exercising won't erase the effects of sitting. I've been reading studies and articles on this for a while now, and even after adjusting for all the usual variables, the studies seem to point to the conclusion that amount of time spent sitting is what is so unhealthy. Even if you run or bike or walk for an hour or two a day, it doesn't counterbalance sitting at a desk for eight hours. Yes, exercise is good, but the research appears to show that sitting for long periods is bad, regardless of whether you exercise or not.

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Norwegian here
Not a big fan of lutefisk either. Hard to avoid it this time of year though

We have standing desks at work, the kind that we can take up and down as we want to, to sit or stand next to. Been around for years. I spend 7.5 hours at the desk at work, every day, and I stand much more than I sit. I move around much more, with ALL of my body, when I stand than when I sit. The movement in my body is more natural as I hang on the desk, move my feet around, or stand upright. I take small steps around the office floor. Variation is key.
I've been standing all day every day this week. It takes a lesser toll on my body than the static sitting with my arms raised to type.

People at my job exercise. That doesn't remove the dangers of sitting all day. We take breaks during the day to do exercise. That doesn't remove the dangers of sitting all day. It's not an either or question.

When I get home and write my stories, I sit on the sofa. But I vary my positions there too. From all the typing I do, I have very little aches and bothers, and much less since I started standing at work more than I sit.

We have rubber mats to stand on at work. It's not good to stand on hard, flat floors. Some of us use 'sensible' shoes.
I like the 'bended board' the best - a board to stand on by your desk that isn't vertical but you have to balance on it while you stand, and vary your position.

I made myself a standing desk, then lengthened the legs of an old stool. I don't use it all the time, butI do use it quite a bit. I can alternate between regular desk, standing, and standing with stool.

Millions of people have jobs where they are on their feet all day.

But moving around is, understandably, not what one immediately thinks of when talking of writing say, novels at a standing desk.

If it suits George, good for George, says I.

OP mentioned researchers using standing desks, and was surprised not more people use them.
Writing involves typing, typically, which is normally done in front of a computer. It is the typing and the sitting that can create physical problems, whether you are writing a story or typing for work. Thus, those problems can also be helped by using different kinds of desks.
Understandably.

blacbird said:

Hint:

Standing is not synonymous with exercise. Now, if somebody can invent a jogging desk, or a weightlifting desk, that might have some value. A standing desk is synonymous with a pain-in-the-ass desk.

caw

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Y'all don't hang out much with geek writers.

Half the professional tech writers and journalists I know use a standing desk, and half of those use a treadmill desk.

Seriously; google it. It's a thing.

I wrote about standing desks here.

I love the idea of working at a standing desk, but I'm afraid my back couldn't take it. After two childhood incidents where I slipped on the ice and fell flat on my back, I suffer soreness and can't stay in one position for long. But I do know a lady who uses a balancing ball instead of a regular desk chair. She said that it feels wonderful and that the subtle "balancing act" keeps her back from getting stiff. This balancing act also gives the person a sense of mobility and alertness. When I looked at the balancing-ball chairs being sold at amazon.com, I noticed that some now come with frames and wheels. They might be worth checking out.

MsDashwood said:

Norwegian here

I've been standing all day every day this week. It takes a lesser toll on my body than the static sitting with my arms raised to type.

People at my job exercise. That doesn't remove the dangers of sitting all day. We take breaks during the day to do exercise. That doesn't remove the dangers of sitting all day. It's not an either or question.

.

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Keep standing for several years, and then tell me about the lesser toll. I don't know anyone who's had a stand all day job for several years who isn't paying a hug toll.

And if you take breaks through the day to exercise, you aren't sitting all day. You can't have it both ways.

You're right in saying it isn't an either or question, but no writer has to sit all day or stand all day. Too much sitting without exercise is bad for you, but too much standing is also bad. You get different problems from each, but too much standing for too long will cripple you, just as too much sitting without exercise will lead to other problems.

Balance is the key, but if you eat right, and stay in shape, sitting really isn't a worry, unless you're sitting so much that you aren't staying in shape.

Sitting/standing really isn't the issue. Neither matters anywhere near as much as a good diet and proper exercise. And no matter how much you stand, that isn't proper exercise. It just kills the feet, knees, and hips while giving the illusion of exercise.

And it really goes back to writers, since this is a writer's forum. No writer has a boss standing over his shoulder who makes him sit there all day. Darned few writers do sit all day. They may be fat and lazy, but it's not from sitting there beating out twenty thousand words per day.

A standing desk for a lazy person who doesn't eat right is just an excuse to keep being lazy and for not eating right.

Oooh, a topic I've spent waaaaay too much time thinking about. For me, sitting all day is bad for my body and worse for my mental well-being. It's a real problem, and no amount of hiking on the weekends and time in the gym really helped. For the record, I am in excellent shape. I exercise daily. My diet is impeccable. The problem IS long. stretches. of. just. sitting.

After much dithering, I bought one of those wheeled adjustable over-bed tables for about 50$. I also bought a cheap stationary bike (about 140$). So I can bike when writing, stand when writing, dance around if I'm working on something that only requires half a brain.

It really DOES make a difference. I write faster and better. I am so much happier and relaxed at the end of the day.

...To paraphrase Samantha in a Sex and the City episode, I'm riding mine right now...

Jamesaritchie said:

Keep standing for several years, and then tell me about the lesser toll. I don't know anyone who's had a stand all day job for several years who isn't paying a hug toll.

And if you take breaks through the day to exercise, you aren't sitting all day. You can't have it both ways.

You're right in saying it isn't an either or question, but no writer has to sit all day or stand all day. Too much sitting without exercise is bad for you, but too much standing is also bad. You get different problems from each, but too much standing for too long will cripple you, just as too much sitting without exercise will lead to other problems.

Balance is the key, but if you eat right, and stay in shape, sitting really isn't a worry, unless you're sitting so much that you aren't staying in shape.

Sitting/standing really isn't the issue. Neither matters anywhere near as much as a good diet and proper exercise. And no matter how much you stand, that isn't proper exercise. It just kills the feet, knees, and hips while giving the illusion of exercise.

And it really goes back to writers, since this is a writer's forum. No writer has a boss standing over his shoulder who makes him sit there all day. Darned few writers do sit all day. They may be fat and lazy, but it's not from sitting there beating out twenty thousand words per day.

A standing desk for a lazy person who doesn't eat right is just an excuse to keep being lazy and for not eating right.

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It really boils down to people trying it out and looking more into it before flat out dismissing it.
But to each his own - if a standing desk seems like such a bad idea for someone who writes a lot, not matter if there is a boss there to check - then that person doesn't need to bother with a standing desk.
Everyone has a personal responsibility too, hence the taking small breaks to stretch and do some exercise during the day. As one should if one sits intensely writing, hovering over the computer or laptop, as writers do in periods of time, at least.
Most of the workday is still spent sitting - or standing - all day (at work). No matter how healthy you eat, you can't get away from sitting - or standing - hours in a day, if that is what your job requires, whether it is in an office, or at home, writing a novel.
It is different for creative writers, in that you (mostly) don't have that pressure of time or efficiency that an office job say, requires of you. And you can move around more and for longer periods of time, if you are writing a novel, take breaks more when you want to, lay down on a bed etc. We all understand that.
But it is a point to consider that standing versus sitting for hours with your arms raised to type, presents a difference when it comes to how all those hours affects your body - for most people, hence the growing number of people using standing desks. Some, of course, have aches and bothers that makes standing up all day create more problems for them.

I try to vary sitting or standing, since I have that kind of desk. But it gives me lesser aches to stand.

I know people who have had an office job for years, sitting down, and now cannot raise their arms because the muscles are worn out from sitting statically in the same position. Even WITH breaks to exercise, and staying healthy and fit in other ways.

So, like I said, people should try it.
Or not

blacbird said:

Hint:

Standing is not synonymous with exercise. Now, if somebody can invent a jogging desk, or a weightlifting desk, that might have some value. A standing desk is synonymous with a pain-in-the-ass desk.

caw

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Medievalist said:

Y'all don't hang out much with geek writers.

Half the professional tech writers and journalists I know use a standing desk, and half of those use a treadmill desk.

Seriously; google it. It's a thing.

I wrote about standing desks here.

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I made my own standing desk by utilizing some built-in shelving in my house. Shelving might be a strong word though...it's really just two ledges protruding from the wall, one at waist-height and the other at about chest height. I have a mini-elliptical (which is just the pedal part) and it fits under nicely--I can get close to the shelves while still having room to move (This would obviously not work if the shelves were any lower than they are). With a couple big books to boost my laptop, I've got a both work space and a work out.

Jamesaritchie said:

Keep standing for several years, and then tell me about the lesser toll. I don't know anyone who's had a stand all day job for several years who isn't paying a hug toll.

And if you take breaks through the day to exercise, you aren't sitting all day. You can't have it both ways.

You're right in saying it isn't an either or question, but no writer has to sit all day or stand all day. Too much sitting without exercise is bad for you, but too much standing is also bad. You get different problems from each, but too much standing for too long will cripple you, just as too much sitting without exercise will lead to other problems.

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I'm more inclined to believe multiple, properly conducted scientific studies than your anecdotal evidence and unswerving opinions, however.

Here's how much anecdotal evidence is worth: I don't know anyone who has been "crippled" by being a cashier or a door greeter or working the assembly line in a chocolate factory.

But that doesn't mean I'm right or you're wrong. These are just random people we know, not a proper statistical sample of the population.

Bufty said:

Millions of people have jobs where they are on their feet all day.

But moving around is, understandably, not what one immediately thinks of when talking of writing say, novels at a standing desk.

If it suits George, good for George, says I.

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Well, if one uses a really big piece of paper, or a keyboard the size of a piano...

Oh, I know! A QWERTY floor mat for the Wii! Not so much a standing desk as a dancing desk or yoga desk.

ETA: Actually.... Shit. *runs immediately to the patent office*