Republicans begin to get it, maybe

nighttimer

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I do know it. It's as simple as running the numbers. Doesn't even require any division.

If Romney had won the same States he won plus Virginia, Florida, Nevada, and Ohio, he would have won the 2012 election with 272 Electoral Votes to Obama's 266.

"If Romney..."

"If" nothing. IF the dog hadn't stopped to take a shit he would have caught the rabbit. :rolleyes

It's not as simple as running the numbers. All you're doing is speculating without substantiating your analysis. I prefer the predictions and theories of other sources that are a bit more reliable and fact-checked than yours. What you've conjured up is your own version of Unskewed Polls.

You're entitled to your own hypothetical scenarios, but you've chosen the wrong one. I reserve the right to reject that which is asserted, but not proven.


I'm just such an old softie.

Then you should save the softness for those more deserving of it.
 

Bloo

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One more issue - and this one is not completely fair, but it is what it is: when the Democrats elected a black man, out-and-proud racists almost had to support the other guy. We've seen people accused of racism over nonsense, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about outright "Who the hell let a black man in the White House?" and "Obama is nothing but a N-----," sort of stuff. Really, truly, unforgivably nasty stuff. It's not the Republican party's fault that those folks got associated with them or voted with them... but they did seem to court that vote, using dog whistles and nods and winks, in a way that Democrats haven't done... at least not in the last few decades, and certainly not since I've been a voter.

I just finished the book GAME CHANGE that looks at the 2008 election. Hillary's campaign and Obama's campaign both dabbled in a bit of race baiting (Obama's people had a memo describing Hillary as the Senator from Punjabi and Hillary's campaign broke the Jeremiah Wright story and Bill made some embarrassing [but not necessarily racist, but insensitive] remarks
 

Bloo

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Nice? :Huh:

To Mitt Romney? Paul Ryan? Karl Rove? Fox News? Ann Coulter? Rush Limbaugh? Glenn Beck? Herman Cain? Rupert Murdoch? Donald Trump? Michelle Malkin? Reince Preibus? Michele Bachmann? Newt Gingrich? Pat Buchanan? Mary Matalin? Sheldon Adelson? Ted Nugent? Hank Williams Jr., Artur Davis? Sarah Palin? Victoria Jackson? Pat Robertson? Franklin Graham? Rick Santorum? The Koch Brothers?

There's no reason to be gracious or make nice with these swine.

should I make a list of Democrats who are just as extreme?

For example I could name Fred Phelps in a list of Democrats (he is one and has run for Governor of Kansas as a Democrat).

you name Fox News, MSNBC is just as biased only to the left.

And this is why pointing out the extremists on one side is dangerous because both sides have extremists or blow hards or biased reporting.
 

AncientEagle

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The "yeah, but both sides are guilty" defense is a playground defense. And I can't, for the life of me, come up with a list from among liberal types that can compare in number and in vitriol to the ones just listed from the far right.
 

rugcat

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The GOP hasn't learned shit.

The idea that the GOP has been held hostage to the Tea Party, but now is seeing the error of its ways is lovely, but without evidence.

Remember the debt ceiling fight? The one that ended up with a credit rating downgrade that has already cost a billion dollars -- for nothing. It was blamed on the Tea Party, with John Boehner unable to rein them in. But here's the new GOP:
President Barack Obama made a demand of House Speaker John Boehner near the end of their first White House meeting on the fiscal cliff: Raise the debt limit before year’s end.

Boehner responded: “There is a price for everything.
Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1112/84253.html#ixzz2DYJMQP00

Once again the GOP seems intent on using the debt ceiling as a leverage bargaining chip to get what they want. Either we get our way, or we'll take the economy down with us.

I think the only shift has been from focusing on taking Obama down, no matter what the cost, to returning to power no matter what the cost.

Before, it was simple -- if we can do our best to stall the economy, we can defeat Obama.

Step two -- if we can keep the economy from rebounding, we can win the Presidency and take control of the Senate.

If, four years from now we're stuck in economic doldrums (or if, for example, we defaulted on our loan payments) no one's going to care who's "fault" it is. They're only going to see that things are totally screwed up, and will want a change -- that's the GOP hope.

Reasonable Republicans are only reasonable is comparison to the crazies in their party. Other than that, same old, same old.
 

Unimportant

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One thing I heard a lot about during the election was whether Republicans were connecting with women and minorities. Democrats said Repubs were anti-women and anti-Latino; Repubs said they believe in equality and treat everyone the same. Obama seemed to do better in the vote with women and minorities, bolstering the Dem's assertion. Repubs have refuted that the Repub party's policies don't resonate with women and Latinos, but have also said they need to do more to connect with women and minorities, and make it clear that they embrace everyone as equals. (Hopefully I've paraphrased all that correctly.)

This doesn't seem to be a very effective way for the Repubs to go about it:
House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio) announced who will chair all of the major House committees in the next Congress. And it turns out they all have something in common besides party affiliation: they're all white men.

There isn't a single woman or minority included in the mix of 19 House committee chairs.
 

robeiae

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"If Romney..."

"If" nothing. IF the dog hadn't stopped to take a shit he would have caught the rabbit. :rolleyes

It's not as simple as running the numbers. All you're doing is speculating without substantiating your analysis. I prefer the predictions and theories of other sources that are a bit more reliable and fact-checked than yours. What you've conjured up is your own version of Unskewed Polls.
Huh?

Let's try this again.

I said: "Do you know that without the changes in seats following the 2010 census, Romney could not have won the election even if he had won Virginia, Florida, Nevada, and Ohio?"

To which you replied: "No, I didn't know that and as you haven't provided any source for the assertion there is no reason to accept you know it either."

You doubted my assertion, but it's an easy one to check, because all you have to do is run the numbers. You need to see them?

Here are the changes that came about in the 2010 Apportionment: http://www.census.gov/population/apportionment/files/Apportionment Population 2010.pdf

See the far right column? That's seats--and therefore electoral votes--lost or gained for each State. Thus in the 2012 Election, winning Texas was worth four more Electoral votes than it was in 2008. Winning New York was worth two fewer.

Totaling things up (from a previous blog post of mine; I'll not post a link because this is the only relevant part here):


Of the eight States that picked up seats, five were won by Romney, resulting in an additional eight electoral votes that he would not have had in 2008. Of twelve states that lost seats, two were won by Romney, meaning two fewer electoral votes, a net gain of six votes. On the other side, Obama picked up an additional four electoral votes from States that gained seats but lost ten electoral votes from the States that lost seats, a net loss of six votes. Imagining that there had been no changes to seats in 2010, Obama would have won the 2012 Election by a slightly wider margin, 338 Electoral Votes for him, 200 for Romney.

Obviously, the ultimate impact here was inconsequential, due to Obama's margin of victory. Yet, if we imagine that Romney won Virginia, Florida, Nevada, and Ohio (a fantasy, as it turned out), he would have won the election, 272 Electoral Votes (Romney) to 266 Electoral Votes (Obama). However, if the Apportionment of 2010 had not occurred, the totals would have been different. Romney would have had eight fewer Electoral Votes, Obama would have had eight more: 264 Electoral votes for Romney, 274 Electoral Votes for Obama (in 2008 Apportionment numbers). Thus, Obama would have won, even if Romney had been more successful in the "swing" States.
See? It's not rocket science, just math.

You're entitled to your own hypothetical scenarios, but you've chosen the wrong one. I reserve the right to reject that which is asserted, but not proven.
Really, you should have just asked how I arrived at my assertion, if you didn't understand it, since--again--it's not a very bold one.
 

blacbird

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For example I could name Fred Phelps in a list of Democrats (he is one and has run for Governor of Kansas as a Democrat)..

Fred Phelps may have registration as a Democrat and may have "run" for office as one, but he does that purely because he's a psychopathic attention whore, and he has the chance of being elected that you have of traveling to the Andromeda Galaxy. He's a bad joke, nothing more.

Find me Democratic equivalents of Todd Akin, Richard Mourdock, Michele Bachmann, Sarah Palin. People who hold or have recently held high elective office, with serious aspirations of political prowess. And prominent commentators on the left anywhere near as unfamiliar with factual reality as Michelle Malkin, Ann Coulter, Glenn Beck.

I second Coloradoguy's challenge to you.

caw
 

Gregg

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Maybe a bit tongue in cheek, but..

Just who are the "prominent commentators on the left"? Chris Matthews? (Who has been roundly criticized by both sides on this web site). For some reason the commentators mentioned above are usually on the network with the highest ratings. Curious.
And those prominent elected officials on the left.. Pelosi and Reid? Who else?

Seriously, after Obama, the Democrat's bench is pretty weak. I've seen several articles listing 12 to 15 potential GOP presidential candidates for 2016. Who do the Democrats have? Joe Biden and Elizabeth Warren?

As for Akin and Mourdoch.. Complete idiots who deserved to lose, but don't forget Anthony Weiner, a sure embarassment for the left.
 

clintl

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I've seen several articles listing 12 to 15 potential GOP presidential candidates for 2016. Who do the Democrats have? Joe Biden and Elizabeth Warren?

They have Hillary, if she wants to run. And if she does, they don't really need anyone else.
 

rugcat

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As for Akin and Mourdoch.. Complete idiots who deserved to lose, but don't forget Anthony Weiner, a sure embarrassment for the left.
I think the real difference between right and left in this regard is that people like Weiner (and Bill Clinton) did some stupid things -- but they were things unrelated to their public life and policy positions. Akin and Mourdock were not brought down by scandal, but by actual policy positions relating to their job as legislators.

But more important is that unlike the left, the crazies and hate mongers on the right are tolerated, if not actively embraced by the GOP establishment.

Michael Steele had to apologize to Rush Limbaugh simply for saying his diatribes were not helpful.

Michele Malkin and Ann Coulter are regularly given a platform on Fox News. Crazy Glenn Beck even had his own show. Romney appeared at fundraisers with his new best friend nutter birther Donald Trump.

As long as the GOP continues to accept such people as legitimate (and important) voices in their party, they will deserve all the scorn that is heaped upon them.
 

Gale Haut

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Joe Biden and Elizabeth Warren?

Elizabeth Warren=Winning!

I think I would actually help campaign if she ran.

As for Akin and Mourdoch.. Complete idiots who deserved to lose, but don't forget Anthony Weiner, a sure embarassment for the left.

Oops. I had already forgotten about him. I'm not sure why I shouldn't. :D
 

muravyets

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I think the real difference between right and left in this regard is that people like Weiner (and Bill Clinton) did some stupid things -- but they were things unrelated to their public life and policy positions. Akin and Mourdock were not brought down by scandal, but by actual policy positions relating to their job as legislators.

But more important is that unlike the left, the crazies and hate mongers on the right are tolerated, if not actively embraced by the GOP establishment.

Michael Steele had to apologize to Rush Limbaugh simply for saying his diatribes were not helpful.

Michele Malkin and Ann Coulter are regularly given a platform on Fox News. Crazy Glenn Beck even had his own show. Romney appeared at fundraisers with his new best friend nutter birther Donald Trump.

As long as the GOP continues to accept such people as legitimate (and important) voices in their party, they will deserve all the scorn that is heaped upon them.
Exactly. People are already forgetting Anthony Weiner because, having disgraced himself, he has dropped from public life. He might return, but he is not being propped up by the party.

We have a long memory for the ridiculous characters on the right because the GOP is loathe to let any of them go for fear they'll take that disastrous base with them. So we get to enjoy round after round of extreme-right idiocy.

And as you say, the idiocies of a Weiner pale by comparison to those of an Akin or Mourdock because Weiner's stupidity ruined only himself. Akin and Mourdock damaged the lives of countless women, gay people, immigrants and workers and sought to do yet more harm via their policies. The public has a moderately longish memory for that sort of thing, too.
 

blacbird

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I've seen several articles listing 12 to 15 potential GOP presidential candidates for 2016.

They had 12 to 15 potential candidates in 2012. Those included such luminaries as Tim Pawlenty, Rick Perry, Herman Cain, Michele Bachmann, Newt Gingrich, Rick Santorum, Ron Paul, John Huntsman, Gary Johnson and Allen West. That worked out real well, didn't it? They wound up with, by default, Mitt Romney.

The quantity of "potential" candidates doesn't matter. The quality does.

2016 is a long way off right now. We'll see new names emerge in both parties, and for the GOP especially, that should be welcome. What Republicans need to do right now is figure out what their message, going forward, really is. If it is, in fact, screw everybody who's not just like us, as it was this electoral cycle, I predict future futility.

caw
 
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nighttimer

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Let's try this again.

Let's not.

robeiae said:
Really, you should have just asked how I arrived at my assertion, if you didn't understand it, since--again--it's not a very bold one.

I'm perfectly capable of asking my own questions and when I need a suggestion of what questions I should ask, I'll ask.

I'm not asking.

All I wanted was something--anything--that corroborated your remarks. It took you three posts to do it, but you finally found a link to the U.S. Census.

I understand perfectly. You simply have a problem providing supporting evidence without having to be asked for it--repeatedly.

should I make a list of Democrats who are just as extreme?

You should. It'll be fun to see you try. :D
 

robeiae

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All I wanted was something--anything--that corroborated your remarks. It took you three posts to do it, but you finally found a link to the U.S. Census.
"Do you have a source for this?" Simple, really. You can ask for evidence without implying another person is lying or making things up. Can't you?


I understand perfectly. You simply have a problem providing supporting evidence without having to be asked for it--repeatedly.
Again, it's not an outlandish assertion. It's just some simple addition and subtraction. I actually still haven't provided evidence for it, aside from my own remarks.

Yet, you called it "speculating without substantiating your analysis," which I guess says something about expectations, as well as the state of doing homework beyond simple googling to see if someone else has already done it for you.
 

Gregg

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But more important is that unlike the left, the crazies and hate mongers on the right are tolerated, if not actively embraced by the GOP establishment.

Almost every Republican bailed out on Akin and tried to get him to quit the race. Mourdoch's idiocy came very late in the campaign and most Republicans disagreed with his statement about rape.

As for Donald Trump, I don't know why anybody listens to him.
 

Monkey

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blacbird

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All I wanted was something--anything--that corroborated your remarks. It took you three posts to do it, but you finally found a link to the U.S. Census.

I understand perfectly. You simply have a problem providing supporting evidence without having to be asked for it--repeatedly.

Not to mention that it's speculative fiction anyway, no different from "if John Kerry had won Ohio in 2004, he'd have won the election," or "if Al Gore had carried Florida in 2000, he'd have . . ."

Never mind.

caw
 

clintl

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Seriously, after Obama, the Democrat's bench is pretty weak. I've seen several articles listing 12 to 15 potential GOP presidential candidates for 2016. Who do the Democrats have? Joe Biden and Elizabeth Warren?

FWIW, I did a little Googling last night, and these are some of the possibilities I've seen in multiple places, besides Biden, Warren, and Clinton:

Virginia Sen. Mark Warner, Former Virginia Gov. and Sen.-elect Tim Kaine, New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo, New York Sen. Kristen Gillibrand, Maryland Gov. Martin O'Malley, Massachusetts Gov. Deval Patrick, Montana Gov. Brian Schweitzer, LA Mayor Antonio Villaraigoso, Newark Mayor Corey Booker

Not all of them are likely to run, and they're keeping a lower profile than the Republicans at this point, but they're out there. And some of them would be strong candidates.
 

nighttimer

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Seriously, after Obama, the Democrat's bench is pretty weak. I've seen several articles listing 12 to 15 potential GOP presidential candidates for 2016. Who do the Democrats have? Joe Biden and Elizabeth Warren?

Oh, I'm certain the Democrats will field several potential candidates in 2016. It's customary and in a year when there will be no incumbent running for reelection, you can be certain there will be no shortage of contenders from both sides.

While I agree there are more potential Republican candidates waiting in the wings, the problems that have been detailed throughout this thread and contributed to the humbling of their party's last two standard bearers in 2008 and 2012 continue to exist.

Gregg said:
As for Akin and Mourdoch.. Complete idiots who deserved to lose, but don't forget Anthony Weiner, a sure embarassment for the left.

Anthony Weiner was an embarrassment primarily to himself and he didn't make himself a political liability by making brain-dead comments about rape. There wasn't a single vote lost to the Democrats in 2012 from Weiner's resignation in 2011.

"Do you have a source for this?" Simple, really. You can ask for evidence without implying another person is lying or making things up. Can't you?

Without evidence the safest assumption is the person is lying, making things up or simply flat out wrong.

In debate, "take my word for it" is fundamentally useless.

robeiae said:
Yet, you called it "speculating without substantiating your analysis," which I guess says something about expectations...

What it says is my expectations in a debate with you are low and rarely exceeded.
 

Bloo

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A question to those who want me to make the challenge, am I limited only to politicans or can I include reporters/commentators/etc? Because most in the original list are not active, running politicans but attention seekers, entertainers, activists, or what? Rush LImbaugh is NOT a Republican elected official, nor is Fox News, Ann Coulter, Donald Trump, Ted Nugent, The Koch Brothers, Victoria Jackson, Hank Williams Jr, etc. If Franklin Graham and Pat Robertson are on the list, shouldn't Jeremiah Wright?

So, one person challenged me only to politicans and others said "I dare you". IF I do this (and I'm not saying it won't be a challenge, but I'm also not sure if there would be a point to it to be honest) can I reach across all platforms to those that are registered as Democrats (and in that case Fred PHelps, no matter what his motives, would be considered as he IS a Democrat) or what?

I want to establish the rules of this challenge right off the bat.
 

Monkey

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As an outside observer, it seems clear that the original list was of people who wield considerable power and/or command a large following within the Republican party.

So lefty commentators that had the sort of following and power in the Democratic party that Limbaugh does on the Republican one would be fair game, but someone who holds no power or sway whatsoever within the party does not. It wouldn't be fair, for instance, to list Marilyn Manson as a Republican, because while it's technically true, he's not exactly a mover and shaker within the party.

So... have at. I'm interested in seeing what you come up with.