Israel live tweets its own offensive into Gaza

I find myself wishing that people in America (specifically politicians) would stop giving Israel free reign to do whatever they'd like at the expense of the Palestinians.

kaitie said:

I find myself wishing that people in America (specifically politicians) would stop giving Israel free reign to do whatever they'd like at the expense of the Palestinians.

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Amen.

Having seen one of the refugee camps in Jordan, and having heard some of the stories...Israel has as much to answer for as the terrorists they claim to be pursuing.

kaitie said:

...acting against peace agreements to do whatever the hell they want under the guise of "remember, we were murdered and oppressed!"

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Kaitie - what peace agreement are you referencing that Israel is violating?

If 8,000 rockets launched at civilians since 2005 - 800 just this year - if this does not justify Israel's reaction, what in your mind would?

I think it's important not to forget that they sealed off Gaza for years as well. People were starving, unable to rebuild from any damage done when Israel struck, and it was just a dire situation beyond what many people could even imagine. The settlement situations are equally bad in their own ways.

It might not be right to launch rockets into Israel, but Israel isn't the sweet innocent victim in all of this, and I hate to see them portrayed as such. They act in calculated ways that often go against agreements and they have made no real effort at peace at all.

It's important to not forget that most people in Gaza (and most Palestinians in general) are just people trying to survive and live and raise children the same as everyone else. They are people who have been forced from their homes and lands and stolen from.

If Israel began to act in good faith and take real steps toward peace, I'd support that, but I will not agree with the kinds of actions they've done over the past years.

firedrake said:

Amen.

Having seen one of the refugee camps in Jordan, and having heard some of the stories...Israel has as much to answer for as the terrorists they claim to be pursuing.

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First, however intolerable the situation of the refugees in Jordan may be, they are in Jordan and Jordan is culpable.

The fact that 15% of the refugees were never given Jordanian citizenship serves to illustrate the usefulness of these people as political tools.

Your last comment, drawing parity between terrorists and the state of Israel is just offensive and has no basis in any reality.

It seems to me that there was a little dust-up back in what, 2008? called operation caste lead. Perhaps the over whelming majority of those rockets were a direct result of having a whole bunch of lead being caste in the opposite direction.

Ok. So there is no peace agreement... right? Israel did NOT violate any peace agreements. Correct?

You also avoided the question of self - defense. If 800 rockets just this year is not justification for Israel to act - in your opinion, what would be?

Finally, my nieces, nephews, and cousins are sweet and innocent. In fact, that is exactly what they are. They are being targeted for death by the people you are defending.

You are defending a people that voted for a government that still today maintains, as a core principle, the objective to kill my nieces and nephews.

Lets start fresh. A few simple words: We, Hamas, recognize Israel's right to exist.

If the terrorists, and the people that support them want peace, they simply need to stop shooting and recognize Israel's right to exist.

Gil

Gil Paul said:

Kaitie - what peace agreement are you referencing that Israel is violating?

If 8,000 rockets launched at civilians since 2005 - 800 just this year - if this does not justify Israel's reaction, what in your mind would?

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As for agreements, the most recent off the top of my head was when peace talks were going on before and Israel agreed to stop building in the settlements (which are illegal, btw) in order to show good will. Not long after Israel declared that they were increasing construction and actually kicked Palestinians out of their homes to build.

Here, let me give you a direct quotes in relation to this:

2009: Netanyahu says in a statement to Obama during peace talks: "... we have no intention of building new settlements or of expropriating additional land for existing settlements." That lasted six months before they started new construction projects.

Just this summer, they called for 300 new homes to be built in the West Bank. Note that this is land that they do not, under international law, legally have the right to build on at all. They illegally claimed the land in 1967 and have been forcing Palestinians from their homes since.

Imagine now that a bunch of Canadians crossed the border, said "This is ours now" and bulldozed American's homes without permission and continued to do so for forty years illegally and tell me how you'd feel about that.

It's often been (reasonably, I might add) a condition of peace talks that Israel should stop construction in the settlements until some sort of agreement can be reached. Israel refuses or continues regardless of what they say.

There are more issues. Water consumption, of which the vast majority of shared resources are used by Israelis, for one. The blockade on Gaza caused dozens of problems. Industry in Gaza was completely decimated. The unemployment rate was up around 80%. They were incredibly poor with no industry, no incoming goods, and completely shut off from the rest of the world. Israel limited the amount of electricity being sold. They controlled (and still to a large degree do) everything that went into the country. No construction supplies. Food was limited (and by some accounts intentionally kept below required calories to survive).

Now let's consider the number of direct fatalities. You argue that the shelling is reason to do the current raids, but every single year the number of Palestinians killed is much higher than the number of Israelis. That includes counts for children. Palestinians under 18 are always higher than those in Israel. Here's a graph to show you some numbers. Ironic that the one with fewer casualties is somehow seen as the greater victim.

This also doesn't consider the fact that Israel uses much more deadly (and not acceptable under international law) weapons. In 2008 when the Gaza War happened, Israel was using white phosphorous, which isn't permitted by international law because of the horrific damage and burns it causes. They denied using it, and then after undeniable proof came out, admitted to doing so.

So what would it take for me to say it was acceptable for Israel to go into a full-force attack? Gaza having anything like an equal footing military for one. Israel not actively stoking the conflict. Israel not actively threatening first-strike attacks on other countries.

Israel is not the victim here. I have yet to see any evidence that shows that they are.

Gil Paul said:

Ok. So there is no peace agreement... right? Israel did NOT violate any peace agreements. Correct?

You also avoided the question of self - defense. If 800 rockets just this year is not justification for Israel to act - in your opinion, what would be?

Finally, my nieces, nephews, and cousins are sweet and innocent. In fact, that is exactly what they are. They are being targeted for death by the people you are defending.

You are defending a people that voted for a government that still today maintains, as a core principle, the objective to kill my nieces and nephews.

Lets start fresh. A few simple words: We, Hamas, recognize Israel's right to exist.

If the terrorists, and the people that support them want peace, they simply need to stop shooting and recognize Israel's right to exist.

Gil

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I'm not saying that it's right for Hamas to be douchebags or launch rockets into Israel. I'm saying that the blind backing of Israel while ignoring all of the very terrible things they are doing is not acceptable.

This whole effort is another example (in my opinion) of Israel going to extremes to get what it wants. I don't believe this is necessary or that the loss of life and damage that is being done is justifiable. Is it a terrible thing when a rocket attack kills a Jewish boy? Yes, of course. But isn't it also a terrible thing, and perhaps even more of a terrible thing when 30 children die in Gaza when Israel retaliates?

Over half of the people in Gaza are under 20. Think about that when you watch the buildings fall.

sulong said:

It seems to me that there was a little dust-up back in what, 2008? called operation caste lead. Perhaps the over whelming majority of those rockets were a direct result of having a whole bunch of lead being caste in the opposite direction.

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After Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005, the terrorists in Gaza launched something around 3,000 rockets at Israel which resulted in the Gaza War of 2008.

What is that definition of insanity... something about doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result? Maybe it would make sense for Hamas to tear up their charter calling for Israel's destruction and start fresh with a declaration of peace?

Gil Paul said:

First, however intolerable the situation of the refugees in Jordan may be, they are in Jordan and Jordan is culpable.

The fact that 15% of the refugees were never given Jordanian citizenship serves to illustrate the usefulness of these people as political tools.

Your last comment, drawing parity between terrorists and the state of Israel is just offensive and has no basis in any reality.

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If they hadn't been driven out of their homes and villages, there wouldn't be any refugee camps, would there?

Considering that Menachim Begin was a wanted terrorist for years, I'd say that's a case of the pot calling the kettle black. 'Terrorists' aren't necessarily a driven group of criminals skulking about and planting bombs with the intent to harm, governments are just as culpable. Israel has the advantage of being well-armed and well able to defend itself but by no means is it the innocent party here. I am sick and tired of being people being accused of being 'offensive' when they question Israel's aggression. Just because it's government-sanctioned and has the blessing of the US doesn't make it any better.

Brits offered the Jews Uganda as a homeland, maybe they should of taken that offer.

After Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005, the terrorists in Gaza launched something around 3,000 rockets at Israel which resulted in the Gaza War of 2008.

What is that definition of insanity... something about doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result? Maybe it would make sense for Hamas to tear up their charter calling for Israel's destruction and start fresh with a declaration of peace?

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And Israel was also actively preventing any goods, people, etc., from entering the city. They were devising plans to let in bare minimum of food that wouldn't starve the Gazans, and then subtracting 8% from the number to account for their current lifestyles. For a group of people who were routinely starved to death during the Holocaust, to have such a disregard for the lives of others is appalling to me.

They allowed zero construction material in. Even once they agreed to let in some "non-military" supplies, they were still blockading things like wood for construction under the guise that it could be somehow used for military purposes. It was only an international backlash against it and Egypt rising up and saying "uuuh, no" that caused them to change their minds and get a little more lax about what they let in.

It isn't as if Israel was sitting over their minding their own business, having nothing to do with Gaza and then the Gazans were back there throwing rockets at them because they're just meanie-heads like that. Israel was actively harming them and endangering their lives through deprivation. I'm not saying that makes the reaction okay, but if we're going to have this conversation we have to look at both sides.

And as for the definition of insanity thing, the same argument can be (and has been) made that if Israel would stop building in land that isn't theirs, the Palestinians would be open to peace talks. Consider this for a minute. Israel took a bunch of land and claimed it. The international community said "that's not okay" but limited it to a slap on the hand and basically sits back and lets Israel do this (imagine for a second that Iran did this and the immediate backlash there would be).

Israel has time and again said it would consider stopping building, only to build more. When a decision was finally made that gee, some of these homes were built on private Palestinian land and thus had to be removed, how did Israel respond? By calling for hundreds of homes to be built on different Palestinian land. Okay, not really solving the problem here.

Palestinians want Israel to stop the construction and expansion as a requirement of peace talks. To me, this seems perfectly reasonable. Why would they agree to something if all Israel has done is continue to go against their word and keep building in land that isn't theirs? If you're so determined that Hamas must make this declaration, isn't it only fair that Israel also declares (and follows through) with a cessation of building in settled lands? In fact, one could argue that the reason Hamas is able to maintain a hold is because Israel continues to do these things that are so anti-Palestinian, leaving Palestinians angry and wanting to fight back against the people who are (in their eyes) oppressing them.

Israel is defending itself. If that is terrible, then it is terrible that they are forced to do so.

If it was the USA in a similar situation, the reaction would be much different. Do you know how many civilians we have killed in Pakistan alone? If you want to talk about Israel doing terrible things, you may want to read up on what our own drones are doing!

I am not suggesting that one horror justifies any other but in this instance, Israel is fighting as just a war as any war can be. They are fighting to defend their civilian population from continued attack from Hamas rockets. If Hamas had not continued its rocket attacks, Israel would not have responded and my nieces and nephews would not be spending another night cowering and crying in a bomb shelter.

Gil Paul said:

Israel is defending itself. If that is terrible, then it is terrible that they are forced to do so.

If it was the USA in a similar situation, the reaction would be much different. Do you know how many civilians we have killed in Pakistan alone? If you want to talk about Israel doing terrible things, you may want to read up on what our own drones are doing!

I am not suggesting that one horror justifies any other but in this instance, Israel is fighting as just a war as any war can be. They are fighting to defend their civilian population from continued attack from Hamas rockets. If Hamas had not continued its rocket attacks, Israel would not have responded and my nieces and nephews would not be spending another night cowering and crying in a bomb shelter.

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At least your nephews and nieces have a bomb shelter. At least there's a solid missile defence system in place. The slums of Gaza haven't got that luxury.

There's an old saying 'Using a sledgehammer to crack a nut'.
This is what's happening here.

MOD NOTE:
Just a reminder, folks. We've been around this block several times. (Feel free to use the search feature to see just how far and how many times.) Everyone has the right to their own opinion, and the responsibility to own it. It is expected that ownership will include references and links to factual information, both in support and elaboration of the "why".

It is not accurate to suggest that Israel created the Jordanian refugee issue.

In regards to questioning aggression, there needs to be more of that in Gaza. There is debate in Israel everyday in regards to military force and aggression. It is one of the things that makes Israel the vibrant democracy that it is. It was not your question of agression that I found offensive. Drawing parity between terrorists and Israel is offensive. Israel does not intentionally attack civilians. Hamas does. There is no parity.

Folks - you will be happy to know I am taking a break from this thread - for a while anyway. Perhaps I will wander back latter tomorrow but it's too exhausting to keep this up.

In the interim, watch this. It briefly touches upon the origin of the Jordanian refuge issue.


http://youtu.be/63hTOaRu7h4

Israel is defending itself. If that is terrible, then it is terrible that they are forced to do so.

If it was the USA in a similar situation, the reaction would be much different. Do you know how many civilians we have killed in Pakistan alone? If you want to talk about Israel doing terrible things, you may want to read up on what our own drones are doing!

I am not suggesting that one horror justifies any other but in this instance, Israel is fighting as just a war as any war can be. They are fighting to defend their civilian population from continued attack from Hamas rockets. If Hamas had not continued its rocket attacks, Israel would not have responded and my nieces and nephews would not be spending another night cowering and crying in a bomb shelter.

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The charts show a higher number of Palestinians dead compared to the number of Israelis, which means it could just as easily be argued that the Palestinians could just as easily be considered defending themselves.

Do you think I approve of drone attacks killing children in Pakistan? I don't. Maybe some people in America approve of that sort of thing, but I'm not one of them, but this also isn't an argument about American drones. I think if you started a thread about that you would find a lot of people who don't think it's a good idea. This is about whether or not Israel has the right to go in and decimate a region.

To call this war just is...well honestly I have no words for that. I also understand that you have very strong feelings that are perfectly understandable considering your family are the ones at risk. I'm okay with just agreeing to disagree on this one.

A definition of Terrorism from the Oxford English Dictionary, lest anyone thinks I'm using the term too loosely

And, Jordan has done what it can to accommodate the Palestinian refugees, with the help of the UN.

Forgive my cynicism about the video. I think, given this information I would take what the gentleman says with a very large pinch of salt.

I'll take a neutral UN report over an 'educational video' from an unaccredited 'university' any day of the week.

Edited to add this article from today's 'Guardian'. It states that there are 'no public bomb shelters'.

Just so we're clear I wasn't talking off the top of my head last night.

land for peace is a lie

firedrake said:

I'll take a neutral UN report over an 'educational video' from an unaccredited 'university' any day of the week.

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do you also take the neutral UN's certification of the israeli withdrawal from lebanon as complete? this after withdrawals from sinai and gaza? for which they were repaid with a second intifada and suicide bombs?

the quality of palestinian life -- and frequency of palestinian death -- should be laid at the feet of its rightful owners: hezbollah and iran, who, for decades, have used palestinians as pawns, human shields and child soldiers for their own ends.

I'd love to get all the leaders of all the parties involved in one room and start smacking them outside the head.

This sort of insanity never ends with a winner. Just losers, primarily the people who have no say in what their leaders say or do.

Idiots, all of them. Life is too short and too hard for many to spend like this when their leaders posture and brag from safety.

Put these idiots in the front lines and I bet you see negotiations happening quick enough.

JMO.

Wow. Just a number to put other numbers in perspective:

During 2006, Israeli Security Forces fired some 14,000 artillery shells into the Gaza Strip which were responsible for killing 59 persons, almost all of them civilians.

From this.

Sheryl Nantus said:

Put these idiots in the front lines and I bet you see negotiations happening quick enough.

JMO.

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Given different idiots, I'd agree with you, but IMO there are different factors driving things here. The idiots on one side are perfectly okay with dying (and getting their own people killed). The idiots on the other have convinced themselves this is the right course of action, and within Israel itself, they have only weak opposition. (The Israeli left essentially collapsed with Oslo.). The debate becomes about appearances instead of about options.

Given the physical sizes of Gaza itself, Israel, the West Bank, etc, if you live in the reach of rockets, (whichever side they originate from), you're affected. Since everyone serves on the Israeli side (which both makes the conflict personal and exacerbates the mindset that overwhelming response is the only course of action), everyone has a stake. The stakes, of course, on the Palestinian side, are equally obvious. Netanyahu himself is largely a creature of his brother's death, which occurred during a famous airliner hostage situation (and his father's hardline stance that resulted from it.).

Another problem, especially as it relates to settlement growth, is that the one group of people who've managed to insulate themselves from responsibility pretty well are the ultra-Orthodox. They don't serve in the military, enjoy large government subsidies, and are well-protected (as well as can be, at least) by the IDF. They're also among the fastest growing segments in Israeli society, and they're pretty vocal in their opposition to any peace efforts with the Palestinians, including some pretty radical elements of their own. (Google: Price Tag Israel. I'm not giving links to avoid biasing opinions.).

Sheryl Nantus said:

I'd love to get all the leaders of all the parties involved in one room and start smacking them outside the head.

This sort of insanity never ends with a winner. Just losers, primarily the people who have no say in what their leaders say or do.

Idiots, all of them. Life is too short and too hard for many to spend like this when their leaders posture and brag from safety.

Put these idiots in the front lines and I bet you see negotiations happening quick enough.

JMO.

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They won't negotiate if sacrificing others is in their political best interests. The Israeli leaders have elections to think about, and Hamas leaders get more power whenever Israel attacks them.

Mara said:

They won't negotiate if sacrificing others is in their political best interests. The Israeli leaders have elections to think about, and Hamas leaders get more power whenever Israel attacks them.

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Well, that's the saddest post on the thread