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Thread: Richard III's remains: Leicester car park dug up

  1. #1
    knows a hawk from a handsaw Shakesbear's Avatar
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    Richard III's remains: Leicester car park dug up

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-19361350

    I really really hope that they do find Richard's remains and are able to give him a proper burial.




    And my large kingdom for a little grave,
    A little little grave, an obscure grave . . .




  2. #2
    Geekzilla BigWords's Avatar
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    That sounds interesting, though I really doubt that they will find his bones - there is a lot of ground where he might be, and pinning their hopes on one spot is rather optimistic. I hope they do, I just won't be holding my breath...
    The blog, which may not be updated regularly enough. -- I'm linking to other AW blogs here. -- There's some nonsense here when I can be bothered.
    Don't hold your breath...

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  3. #3
    I was only joking! Honest! mirandashell's Avatar
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    I wonder how they know he's under the tarmac. It's a small space surrounded by buildings. What will they do if it turns it he's under a house? Or the next door block?

    And I'm puzzled as to why they are doing this.
    I wish I was a glow worm. A glow worm's never glum. Cos how you can be grumpy when the sun shines out your bum?

  4. #4
    Sophipygian AW Moderator Alessandra Kelley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mirandashell View Post
    And I'm puzzled as to why they are doing this.
    Well, he was king of England.

  5. #5
    poetry is not a ren fair. Absolute Sage William Haskins's Avatar
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    there's some cosmic justice to his bones being as lost to the ages as those of the nephews he had murdered.

  6. #6
    I was only joking! Honest! mirandashell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alessandra Kelley View Post
    Well, he was king of England.

    Yeah so? We don't usually go around digging up our Royals. And we've had more than enough of them.

    And if they do find bones, how will they prove they belonged to Richard?

    I don't know. Just seems a bit pointless.
    I wish I was a glow worm. A glow worm's never glum. Cos how you can be grumpy when the sun shines out your bum?

  7. #7
    Geekzilla BigWords's Avatar
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    We don't know for sure that he had his nephews murdered.
    The blog, which may not be updated regularly enough. -- I'm linking to other AW blogs here. -- There's some nonsense here when I can be bothered.
    Don't hold your breath...

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    Dude, I am not that flexible.
    Quote Originally Posted by aliwood View Post
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  8. #8
    poetry is not a ren fair. Absolute Sage William Haskins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigWords View Post
    We don't know for sure that he had his nephews murdered.
    of course not.

    he didn't display their heads on pikes, but most historians are hard-pressed to find anyone with more of a motive for having them out of the way.

  9. #9
    knows a hawk from a handsaw Shakesbear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mirandashell View Post
    I wonder how they know he's under the tarmac. It's a small space surrounded by buildings. What will they do if it turns it he's under a house? Or the next door block?
    I've just done a Google satellite thingy and if I looked at the right place then there is quite a lot of space for them to dig in. Also, there is some more information here http://news.leicester.gov.uk/newsArc...l.aspx?Id=1665 about the research methods they will use. GPR - ground penetrating radar and "map regression analysis to identify the likely site of the church where Richard was buried".

    There are also methods of digging under houses, especially if they have cellars, that can be used. If they cannot dig then, in some cases, GPR can help them map out what is under the buildings

    Quote Originally Posted by mirandashell View Post
    And I'm puzzled as to why they are doing this.
    I think it is because there are many challenges involved - using the science of archaeology, finding the exact location of the Greyfriars Church and the main one of finding the remains of a King.




    And my large kingdom for a little grave,
    A little little grave, an obscure grave . . .




  10. #10
    practical experience, FTW Purple Rose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mirandashell View Post
    I don't know. Just seems a bit pointless.
    I agree!

    Quote Originally Posted by William Haskins View Post
    of course not.

    he didn't display their heads on pikes, but most historians are hard-pressed to find anyone with more of a motive for having them out of the way.
    Margaret Beaufiort? I'm a fan of Philippa Gregory's books and not ashamed to admit it.

  11. #11
    knows a hawk from a handsaw Shakesbear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mirandashell View Post
    Yeah so? We don't usually go around digging up our Royals. And we've had more than enough of them.
    Shouldn't that be "I've had enough of them"?
    Quote Originally Posted by mirandashell View Post
    And if they do find bones, how will they prove they belonged to Richard?
    DNA tests.


    Quote Originally Posted by William Haskins View Post
    of course not.

    he didn't display their heads on pikes, but most historians are hard-pressed to find anyone with more of a motive for having them out of the way.
    Been reading Shakespeare's RIII? Pure Tudor propaganda. Richard had no reason to dispose of his nephews.




    And my large kingdom for a little grave,
    A little little grave, an obscure grave . . .




  12. #12
    I was only joking! Honest! mirandashell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shakesbear View Post
    Shouldn't that be "I've had enough of them"?
    Errrmmmm no. That wasn't what I meant. I meant that it's not like we're so short of royalty we have to go and dig some up. We've had what? a thousand years worth? How much are we actually going to learn by doing this?

    As for DNA, how many matching alleles will it take to prove it's Dick? How accurate can it be unless the descendant comes from a really inbred family......

    I just don't see the point.
    I wish I was a glow worm. A glow worm's never glum. Cos how you can be grumpy when the sun shines out your bum?

  13. #13
    Geekzilla BigWords's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mirandashell View Post
    How accurate can it be unless the descendant comes from a really inbred family......
    Well, we are talking about royalty...
    The blog, which may not be updated regularly enough. -- I'm linking to other AW blogs here. -- There's some nonsense here when I can be bothered.
    Don't hold your breath...

    Quote Originally Posted by AbielleRose View Post
    Dude, I am not that flexible.
    Quote Originally Posted by aliwood View Post
    The SFF Review Educational Supplement is now open. I'll be listing books, podcasts, online courses and anything else that aims to help the SFF writer improve their skills, provided they're free. (the books, podcasts, online courses and anything else, not the writers)




    The British Comics Database is growing. Or mutating. I'm not quite sure which, yet.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by mirandashell View Post
    As for DNA, how many matching alleles will it take to prove it's Dick? How accurate can it be unless the descendant comes from a really inbred family......
    If you had a verified male line descendent, you'd be in with a shout. Otherwise he's just another dude from the Middle Ages.


    EDIT: actually, that's not true. If you had a verifiable body of a close male-line ancestor/descendent of Richard, you could get pretty close to certain.

  15. #15
    I was only joking! Honest! mirandashell's Avatar
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    The guy I saw on the news this morning that they will do the tests on is descended from Richard's sister, Elizabeth.
    I wish I was a glow worm. A glow worm's never glum. Cos how you can be grumpy when the sun shines out your bum?

  16. #16
    Company Man MattW's Avatar
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    Archaeologist report

    Item sought: remains of King of England
    Location: car park
    Items found: tin can (empty, formerly lima beans), license plate, leather workboot (no laces)
    "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." -- Albert Einstein

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by mirandashell View Post
    I wonder how they know he's under the tarmac.
    Probably the same way they knew Jimmy Hoffa was buried under the end zone at Giants Stadium.
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  18. #18
    practical experience, FTW firedrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by William Haskins View Post
    there's some cosmic justice to his bones being as lost to the ages as those of the nephews he had murdered.
    Says the Tudor propagandists.

    I'd love to think they'll find his remains and getting a fitting burial. The man deserves it after history gave him such a rough deal.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Rose View Post
    Margaret Beaufiort?
    Also, Henry Stafford.

  20. #20
    knows a hawk from a handsaw Shakesbear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mirandashell View Post
    Errrmmmm no. That wasn't what I meant. I meant that it's not like we're so short of royalty we have to go and dig some up. We've had what? a thousand years worth? How much are we actually going to learn by doing this?
    Ah, I see. Thank you for explaining.
    I don't think this is just about royalty, more about finding out about the past of the City of Leicester. Finding RIIIs remains would be a bonus. Digging up a car park would not get a lot of publicity but mentioning RIII does.

    Quote Originally Posted by mirandashell View Post
    As for DNA, how many matching alleles will it take to prove it's Dick? How accurate can it be unless the descendant comes from a really inbred family......

    I just don't see the point.
    I think it is the University of Leicester who have traced a direct descendant of RIIIs sister. Said descendant was at the start of the dig. As for accuracy, Sir Alec Jeffreys is Professor of Genetics at Leicester University. He developed DNA fingerprinting and profiling so I would guess they know what they are doing.




    And my large kingdom for a little grave,
    A little little grave, an obscure grave . . .




  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shakesbear View Post
    I think it is the University of Leicester who have traced a direct descendant of RIIIs sister. Said descendant was at the start of the dig. As for accuracy, Sir Alec Jeffreys is Professor of Genetics at Leicester University. He developed DNA fingerprinting and profiling so I would guess they know what they are doing.
    How could you possibly know that you're the direct descendant of anyone living 700 years ago? One unreported adoption -- or one illegitimate shag if there's a male in the line -- and the entire line goes under.

  22. #22
    knows a hawk from a handsaw Shakesbear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Priene View Post
    How could you possibly know that you're the direct descendant of anyone living 700 years ago? One unreported adoption -- or one illegitimate shag if there's a male in the line -- and the entire line goes under.
    If you go from 1485, RIIIs death then it is approx five hundred years, not seven hundred. Lots of people can trace their families back further than that. As most property and lineage goes through the male then "one illegitimate shag" would not have made much difference. Unless of course it was the wife who cuckolded her husband. There has already been considerable research into Plantagenet DNA for example http://plantagenetdna.webs.com/richardiiisdna.htm according to this article, if I have read it correctly, DNA already exists for RIII. The last paragraph is interesting.




    And my large kingdom for a little grave,
    A little little grave, an obscure grave . . .




  23. #23
    knows a hawk from a handsaw Shakesbear's Avatar
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    A week on . . .
    The discovery of medieval walls shows a search for the lost grave of Richard III is "on the right track", archaeologists have said.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-19436299




    And my large kingdom for a little grave,
    A little little grave, an obscure grave . . .




  24. #24
    Couth barbarian calieber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alessandra Kelley View Post
    Well, he was king of England.
    Well, I didn't vote for him.
    "Everybody must get stoned" --Medusa

  25. #25
    I was only joking! Honest! mirandashell's Avatar
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    Was that meant to be a joke?
    I wish I was a glow worm. A glow worm's never glum. Cos how you can be grumpy when the sun shines out your bum?

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