Country names

Rachel Udin · Aug 15, 2012

Yeah, probably unnecessary angsting again. :tongue

I'm not against self-deprecation.

Historical and language issue. Not quite sure how to resolve it and since I'm editing to try to get the section to work before I move on, I thought I'd shoot it to group since, as I said, I'm a n00b to Historical Fiction and I can't remember for the life of me any other place this has been run into.

I know, first rule is consistency. Just which term?

China in 48 CE was called in India either Mahaciina or Ciina (I'm defaulting to Sanskrit) This originated from the word "Qin" which is a dynasty of China. However by the time of 48 CE, China was in the Han Dynasty.

Korea (Not in the modern sense), where the Princess goes to would also call China Jin. (referring to Qin) and would do so all the way through the Joseon era. (ended in the late 1800's)

"China" is out of the question since it's a modern term (also, ironically derived from Qin)

China by rules, usually is used to people calling it by the Dynasty name. Qin, Han, etc. Zhongguo, argued by someone Chinese is not legit to use. It was in use in the Han Dynasty, but they argued that widespread use can be disputed. They advocated for "Middle Kingdom" which is a loose translation of Zhongguo, but as you can see the people outside of China in the countries I'm using didn't use that....

The book *primarily* deals with India and Korea. China is kinda *there* for diplomatic reasons, looming in the background.

The options:
A. Zhongguo (ignore the person from China)
B. Han
C. Qin
D. Go with individual country terms for China. So change the name when she sails off to what is now Korea, so Ciina to Jin.
E. Middle Kingdom

Is there a good thing to call it in this situation? Anyone have a particular vote or a better compromise? Pretty sure whatever I choose no one is going to be happy...

frimble3 · Aug 15, 2012

I'm torn. Ciina sounds like a good bet, as long as it doesn't just look like a mis-spelling. If that's an issue, I'd go with 'Qin', the root word.
And, I'd definitely switch to Jin when she gets to Korea, regardless of what you start with.
It shows both that she's in a new country, where nothing is quite the same for her and that the new country has a different view of China from her previous home.

pdr · Aug 16, 2012

I agree...

I'd go with Qin to Jin. For readers I thing that's an easy switch.

Lil · Aug 16, 2012

Why is China out of the question?

Yes, it's a modern term, but you are also writing in English for English-speaking readers. That's also "modern," so why not use the term your readers will recognize and understand?

Whatever you choose, you will need a note at the beginning to explain what places these names refer to, or, if you use China and Korea, what these places were called at the time of the story. Otherwise, people picking up the book and seeing Qin or Clina will think they are reading a fantasy.

angeliz2k · Aug 16, 2012

frimble3 said:
I'm torn. Ciina sounds like a good bet, as long as it doesn't just look like a mis-spelling. If that's an issue, I'd go with 'Qin', the root word.
And, I'd definitely switch to Jin when she gets to Korea, regardless of what you start with.
It shows both that she's in a new country, where nothing is quite the same for her and that the new country has a different view of China from her previous home.

I was actually going to suggest to the OP that she use the same name throughout for consistency, but you make a good point that the change in name helps indicate that the character is in a whole new world.

To Rachel_Udin: how about choosing the name that seems to work best, then adding a note at the beginning to explain the usage. Maps are also common in published HF.

Rachel Udin · Aug 16, 2012

Thanks for the replies! So Ciina to Jin seems to get the strongest vote? It would be kinda silly to go with Qin then Jin, since it's not Chinese term, so I'd have to go with Qin for both to be fair...

Lil said:
Why is China out of the question?

Yes, it's a modern term, but you are also writing in English for English-speaking readers. That's also "modern," so why not use the term your readers will recognize and understand?

Whatever you choose, you will need a note at the beginning to explain what places these names refer to, or, if you use China and Korea, what these places were called at the time of the story. Otherwise, people picking up the book and seeing Qin or Ciina will think they are reading a fantasy.

If Historical Fiction has "Gaul" and "Roman" and "Anglo-Saxon" it should be able to handle terms such as "Han", "Qin", "Silla", "Garak", "Goryeo", "Kushan", "Scythian", "Xia" etc too. Dontcha think? I'll just help along the average reader a bit more so they get it with enough context within and author notes from outside so that it's clear.

China is a "Newer" term with *definite* borders on it in the reader's mind--modern borders. Just like saying Rome v. the Roman Empire or Russia v. USSR.

frimble3 · Aug 16, 2012

You might want to have a look at Harry Turtledove's 'Every Inch A King', set in an alternate, and not very different, Europe in the early 1900's. All the 'real' countries are there, only he's given them names evocative of their historic pasts. America (barely in the story, so it doesn't spoil the trick) is 'Vespucciland'.

I don't see why people can't get used to the proper historic names in your story. Give'em an author's note and maybe a map for visualising the changes in boundaries.

mayqueen · Aug 17, 2012

I also vote for Ciina or Jin, and just include a map for readers not used to the names.

Dave Hardy · Aug 17, 2012

Rachel Udin said:
Thanks for the replies! So Ciina to Jin seems to get the strongest vote? It would be kinda silly to go with Qin then Jin, since it's not Chinese term, so I'd have to go with Qin for both to be fair...

If Historical Fiction has "Gaul" and "Roman" and "Anglo-Saxon" it should be able to handle terms such as "Han", "Qin", "Silla", "Garak", "Goryeo", "Kushan", "Scythian", "Xia" etc too. Dontcha think? I'll just help along the average reader a bit more so they get it with enough context within and author notes from outside so that it's clear.

China is a "Newer" term with *definite* borders on it in the reader's mind--modern borders. Just like saying Rome v. the Roman Empire or Russia v. USSR.

Well, just to be contrary, I'm not sure China is all bad. Even by your own example, a lot of people equate "Rome" with the empire while simultaneously knowing it as a modern city. It shows the great cultural continuity of certain entities.

Kushan, Skythian, so forth, I think these are necessary as there are no modern equivalents. Calling them Afghanistan or Turkestan doesn't work for me. It's like saying Caesar fought the Swiss. In ancient times it was the Helvetii.

For me, I'm quite comfortable grasping that China has existed as a cultural/political entity since Qin times, but has changed greatly. I'm also aware that Korea has a deep lineage as a cultural/geographic designation, but only came into existence as a unified kingdom in the Medieval era.

Honestly, for China, if you aren't going to call it China, I'd go with the relevant dynasty term. You're writing in English, so unless you NEED Sanskrit or ancient Korean, I'd skip it.

Bottom line is you want to have style (evoking the glory of the past), while conveying information (don't confuse the reader).

Miller Robert · Sep 11, 2012

I vote for China too. Because there are a lot of ancient specific names. But we should use common definitions. This is easier way for understanding.

Country names

Rachel Udin

frimble3

Heckuva good sport

pdr

Lil

angeliz2k

never mind the shorty

Rachel Udin

frimble3

Heckuva good sport

mayqueen

practical experience, FTW

Dave Hardy

Don't let your deal go down,

Miller Robert