Respect vs Tolerance

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Fulk

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I'm with Persei and Maxinquayne wholeheartedly.

I cannot and do not respect religions--but I may be willing to respect an idea or concept within a religion if it is actually worthy of respect. That aside, I try to adhere to the "don't be a dick" rule and treat people with respect unless I have good reason to be disrespectful.

It's been argued that religion is an idea about the world, and like any idea, it should be open to criticism. That's how I see it. I am under no obligation to respect an idea, whether political, cultural, social, religious, philosophical, etc etc. I'll simply respect others enough to listen to the idea, measure it against the facts and other ideas, and shift and adjust my views accordingly.

Wherever there's a high probability of heated argument or contentious debate, which essentially means any political, religious, or social issue whatsoever, I do my best to determine whether its the appropriate time or place (which isn't always perfect). And I think that's a much more practical application of respect than giving undue deference to ideas that go against the core of my being.
 

FantasticF

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I'm not too sure. I'm somewhere between an Atheist and an Agnostic but...

I just don't go around and discuss religion with people. Problem solved.

It creates a lot of problems and in my honest opinion...

It is something that only YOU need to be comfortable with.
 

frimble3

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Very true. I've been alive for almost 49 years now, and I have only once EVER had someone look at me and say, "You know, you're right!" when we were arguing about some philosophical or ethical point like this.

I'm not too sure. I'm somewhere between an Atheist and an Agnostic but...

I just don't go around and discuss religion with people. Problem solved.

It creates a lot of problems and in my honest opinion...

It is something that only YOU need to be comfortable with.

Yes. Why talk religion when there are so many other things to talk about?
Usually, the people who want to talk about religion are either very devout, see the Lord in everything, and are just so filled with the religious spirit that it just bubbles over. Why rain on their parade?
Or, they're just troublemaking, bringing up something 'controversial' that they know you'll oppose, so they can start an argument, which, win or lose, will gratify them. Do not feed those trolls.

Talk about sports. It's another eye-rollingly boring subject that I don't give a damn about, but it makes small talk while taking people's minds off religion. Unless they're the kind of person for whom a particular sport is religion
.
 

Maxinquaye

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If you've been on the butt end of religion all your life, I assure you that talking about it becomes something that you do. You just do it. If for no other reason than to ask the next bloke over what the hell they're on about and why they have chosen me to hate. Whatever did I do to them?

Usually, the people who decry the arguments against religion have no skin in the game. It's an entitlement where they allow for their conflict-aversion to get the better of them, and try to impose some standards from the outside.

These people just can't understand that when some person gets up in the pulpit of some church and say that you are fundamentally flawed and should be denied rights because of it, and when the majority of the congregation keep silent because it's not their problem, and when a sizeable minority nod in agreement, it becomes so personal that you just have to express resistance.

If that is “being difficult” or “rocking the boat” then so be it. I don't mind being either difficult or contrarian.
 

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If you've been on the butt end of religion all your life, I assure you that talking about it becomes something that you do. You just do it. If for no other reason than to ask the next bloke over what the hell they're on about and why they have chosen me to hate. Whatever did I do to them?

I totally see this. I have no interest in convincing anyone to abandon their faith. I'd rather not argue religion with people. But, damn it, if they're using religion (or their interpretation thereof) to rationalize and legitimize their own bigotry? To try to make it respectable? To deprive someone else of their rights or humanity? Then I will argue with them. In this case, the argument won't be about winning. It will be about letting the person, and others in the room, know that not everyone agrees with them.

I can only imagine what it must feel like to be sitting in a pew, or classroom, or meeting hall, or to be at a social gathering, and to have someone spewing hate about you and to have no one else stand up to that person.
 
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Amadan

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Besides what Maxinquaye said, I'd also point out that religious people "talk about religion" all the time, not necessarily preaching or evangelizing, but just taking it for granted as a normal, default lifestyle. "My church does this and that, blah blah blah," etc. If you happen to mention "I'm an atheist" or even "I'm not religious" (usually because you're asked), it always provokes a response, as if you have somehow challenged them.

This goes hand in hand with "militant atheism," which seems to be defined by religious people as "Any atheist who says anything the least bit critical of any religion."
 

RichardGarfinkle

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Besides what Maxinquaye said, I'd also point out that religious people "talk about religion" all the time, not necessarily preaching or evangelizing, but just taking it for granted as a normal, default lifestyle. "My church does this and that, blah blah blah," etc. If you happen to mention "I'm an atheist" or even "I'm not religious" (usually because you're asked), it always provokes a response, as if you have somehow challenged them.

This brings up an interesting point, for some people atheism provides up to three levels of inconceivability.

1. Personal. For a number of religious people, the idea that a person can think well and operate morally in the world without the backing of a religious mental framework is hard to take in.

2. Social. For those people who center a large part of their social lives and activities around churches (or synagogues, mosques, temples etc), living without that kind of social structure can be difficult to conceive.

3. Pastoral. For those people for whom a priest, minister, rabbi, etc is the person they turn to for advice, we atheists probably seem bereft of guidance.

There's a multi-level disconnect in thinking here, the kind where underlying premises are being challenged by our mere existence.
 

Maxinquaye

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1. Personal. For a number of religious people, the idea that a person can think well and operate morally in the world without the backing of a religious mental framework is hard to take in.

That is really not anyone elses "problem". It is only a "problem" for the one that holds that view. Not adhering to that view is not a challenge to, or a critique of, or an offense against that view. The people with the view just have to grow up.
 
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RichardGarfinkle

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That is really not anyone elses "problem". It is only a "problem" for the one that holds that view. Not adhering to that view is not a challenge to, or a critique of, or an offense against that view. The people with the view just have to grow up.

I'm not disputing that. I was cataloging not endorsing. Arguments between theists and atheists are often frustrating (not the most insightful of comments). Knowing people's motivations and thought processes makes it easier to decide whether and how to talk to them.

So yes, this is the problem of the person holding the personal view, but what they are doing as regards the personal view becomes the problem of the person on the business end of that view.
 

Maxinquaye

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I suppose it's a matter of credibility in the end. It's one thing to sit down with a person you know well and debate things in a reasonably civilized manner, and another to debate things on the internet. The lack of credibility tends to increase volume. So in a media where nobody has credibility, like the internet, people compensate by shouting as loud as they can. Or they viciously attack in the hope of shutting up people. I think that's the main reason why the debate is so bad on the internet.
 

RichardGarfinkle

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I suppose it's a matter of credibility in the end. It's one thing to sit down with a person you know well and debate things in a reasonably civilized manner, and another to debate things on the internet. The lack of credibility tends to increase volume. So in a media where nobody has credibility, like the internet, people compensate by shouting as loud as they can. Or they viciously attack in the hope of shutting up people. I think that's the main reason why the debate is so bad on the internet.

Fair point. I suspect it's even worse when the debates are formalized for public view. In that case there is no attempt at a meeting of minds but a swaying of the audience.

But there are also cases where the personal can overwhelm everything else and closeness create the worst of arguments.

Consider the following two cases.
1. A theist in a salvationist religion who loves and cares for an atheist and is desperate for the salvation of their soul.

2. An atheist worried that a theist they love and care for has fallen under the sway of a cult and is desperate for them to see the reality of the cult and leave it.

In these cases, I think the arguments are even more extreme and at higher volume than even the internet.
 

Roxxsmom

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This brings up an interesting point, for some people atheism provides up to three levels of inconceivability.

1. Personal. For a number of religious people, the idea that a person can think well and operate morally in the world without the backing of a religious mental framework is hard to take in.

2. Social. For those people who center a large part of their social lives and activities around churches (or synagogues, mosques, temples etc), living without that kind of social structure can be difficult to conceive.

3. Pastoral. For those people for whom a priest, minister, rabbi, etc is the person they turn to for advice, we atheists probably seem bereft of guidance.

There's a multi-level disconnect in thinking here, the kind where underlying premises are being challenged by our mere existence.

I understand this bafflement if someone lives in very homogeneous culture or very small, tightly knit community. In these cases, the person in question has very likely never known anyone of a different religion, let alone no religion.

But this is America. Freedom of religion is central to who we are, and there are not only plenty of religious people who are not Christians, but there are plenty of people who are not religious. I remember seeing a survey recently that twenty five to thirty three percent of people are not even nominally a member of any religion, and fewer than half of all Americans are active members of a church, temple, mosque etc.

While openly stated atheism, or even honest agnosticism, is rare, most Americans do not go to Church (or whatever), or do so only very occasionally, even when they claim to be religious.

Atheists often get as much shock and disapproval from people who are not Church goers (and have not been in recent memory) as they do from actively religious people. There's a sort of lip service Christianity that people have in the US. It doesn't run very deep, or stem from a genuine understanding of what Jesus actually taught. But it lets people rationalize their own dislike of various groups or philosophies on "moral" grounds.

Even when their own lifestyle hardly passes Biblical muster.

Consider the following two cases.
1. A theist in a salvationist religion who loves and cares for an atheist and is desperate for the salvation of their soul.

2. An atheist worried that a theist they love and care for has fallen under the sway of a cult and is desperate for them to see the reality of the cult and leave it.

In these cases, I think the arguments are even more extreme and at higher volume than even the internet.

I think you are right. Seeing my fundamentalist aunt trying to convert her own mother, stepfather and mother in law (my grandma) on their deathbeds was interesting. It was then that I realized that she *really* believes in this (to me) crap that salvation is not just about being a good person, or even about believing in God (all three of these people had a general belief in God and the general tenets of Christianity, such as love thy neighbor and don't be a greedy puke), but in believing in a very narrowly defined view of God (aka Jesus IS humanity's ONLY lord and savior, and if you don't believe he is the literal and only son of God and died on the cross for your sins, you will burn in hell for all eternity). She got her mother to convert (at least on the surface), but her stepdad and my grandma were too stubborn to even pretend to convert to get her off their cases.

My Grandma put it really well: "Suppose you're right. Then my husband, my parents and siblings, all my loved ones who have died before me are all in hell. Why would I want to believe in a God that would do that to the people I love?"

I felt sorry for my aunt at that point. How awful to live with that kind of fear.

She's pretty much given up on our side of the family. She's gotten 3/4 of her kids and her husband to convert over the years, and is still working on her militantly atheist oldest son.

They belong to that Church in Colorado, btw, where the pastor had an interesting "lapse" but was "cured" and forgiven.
 
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RichardGarfinkle

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One point Maxinquaye isn't American, so we can't default to a First Amendment discussion.

But even in the US, for some people Freedom of Religion means that they get to practice their religion including the imposition of that religion on others.

I wish the above was a joke.

And there are a very large number whose exposure to religion is very narrow indeed. They may know other religions exist, but they don't interact in any serious way with people who practice those religions.

I remember once a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses came to our house and I asked them why they were sure no other religion had a true path. They said they had a big book about all the other religions. It took about three questions to determine the inaccuracy of this book.

And bear in mind, I live in Chicago. Not a small insular community.

Note: Atheists can have this problem as well. Christopher Hitchen's understanding of Judaism was close to non-existent.
 

Maxinquaye

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I think there are very few educated Europeans that don't know about the separation of Church and State in the US. Actually, since the US constitution and the French constitution are if not siblings then at least first cousins, it's interesting to contrast the US concept with the French concept of Laïcité.

To the French, separation of Church and state means total absence of religion in the state. That is misunderstood sometimes, like in the case when French authorities banned 'overt religious symbols' in schools. Most interpreted this as a ban on burqa'as and niqabs, but in fact the Star of David and big crosses are banned too. But the French do actually try to remove every single trace of religion from public life because the government is barred from promoting one religion over another.

It's the same concept you have in your first amendment, but interpreted very strictly. This has some peculiar effect, such as with the marches against same sex marriage earlier where the origin was clearly religious, but where the organisers tried desperately to deflect from this and hide it because they knew that if the marches were tied to religion, the French people would see it as a breach of the separation.

That concept of Laïcité also does have a wider European angle in that people are generally uncomfortable with overt religiosity. Maybe laïcité fundamentally springs from this wider cultural current.

The kind of pamphleteer Christianity you have over there where everyone has to declare their Christianity loudly, particularly in public office, is just not possible in the Western European countries. That's a huge cultural difference that many may not quite understand, or grasp.

Even the devoutly Christian are uncomfortable with such public display, and there is the term 'godbothering' for it. It has both an agnostic meaning, describing making people uncomfortable about religious loudness, and it has a religious meaning as 'not bothering god with trivial or material stuff'.

So, I think the contrast is interesting, from a purely sociological point of view.
 
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JimmyB27

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Very true. I've been alive for almost 49 years now, and I have only once EVER had someone look at me and say, "You know, you're right!" when we were arguing about some philosophical or ethical point like this.
If you've been on the butt end of religion all your life, I assure you that talking about it becomes something that you do. You just do it. If for no other reason than to ask the next bloke over what the hell they're on about and why they have chosen me to hate. Whatever did I do to them?
I've read about a member here, who says he had his attitude towards gay people almost entirely changed through interactions on these boards. I think the effort to stop prejudice and bigotry is worth it, even if we only have a few successes.

The kind of pamphleteer Christianity you have over there where everyone has to declare their Christianity loudly, particularly in public office, is just not possible in the Western European countries. That's a huge cultural difference that many may not quite understand, or grasp.
It's particularly odd here in the UK, where we technically have a state religion, and our head of state is also head of the church. But for a politician to loudly declare faith would be political suicide.
 

seun

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It's particularly odd here in the UK, where we technically have a state religion, and our head of state is also head of the church. But for a politician to loudly declare faith would be political suicide.

Absolutely true. If any of them publicly said something along the lines of 'hey, I think God is great and I really love Jesus', the reaction would be pretty much 'what a wanker.'
 
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Absolutely true. If any of them publicly said something along the lines of 'hey, I think God is great and I really love Jesus', the reaction would be pretty much 'what a wanker.'

Isn't that what this thread is about?

I live in a college town. If someone conservative comes to speak the students shout them down. If you do so much as raise tuition few percentage points the same students go on a jag about their freedoms.

Tolerance is only granted to those they deem worthy. Everyone else is a heretic.
 

RichardGarfinkle

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Isn't that what this thread is about?

I live in a college town. If someone conservative comes to speak the students shout them down. If you do so much as raise tuition few percentage points the same students go on a jag about their freedoms.

Tolerance is only granted to those they deem worthy. Everyone else is a heretic.

Oddly enough, no it's not what the thread is about. We've been trying to deal with a subtle question of human social interaction and intellectual integrity.

Jimmy's comment

I've read about a member here, who says he had his attitude towards gay people almost entirely changed through interactions on these boards. I think the effort to stop prejudice and bigotry is worth it, even if we only have a few successes.

Which incidentally applies to more than one person here, embodies the reason for why respect may be more valuable than tolerance.
 

RichardGarfinkle

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The best way to demonstrate that is to grant it to your enemies. It's a segment of compassion I find lacking.

In others or in yourself?

Very often the uncompassionate perceive uncompassion in others. They hunt up instances of it and lump them together as if it showed that all those they dislike are uncompassionate. It's more a form of echolocation than anything else.

To see compassion, one should first extend it. To demand it from others is to walk around in a world made of demands. To offer it first is to walk around in a world made of help.
 
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In others or in yourself?

I work on it everyday.

I've lived my life in two halves. And I'm not proud of the first half. I even made a list of the people I had wronged and sought them out.

But I'm not a fool. I think there are abusers who take advantage of people by simply pointing an accusing finger. It appears that merely throwing buzzwords at people makes many cave.

I will contribute to a charity but work equally as hard to fight a runaway government bilking tax payers.
 
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