A woman on the streets

Monkey said:

I hate, hate, hate this. I really hate suggesting that there's nothing the women can do. But in this case...men educating men does seem like the answer.

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Maybe this is just me being a starry eyed optimist...but I think that IS something a woman can do. Maybe, inside at least one out of every ten sexists, there is someone who doesn't realize exactly what is going on. Ignorance and peer pressure and all that.

Maybe that person just needs a few examples to counteract what they're indoctrinated with. And if you can reach that one person just by being yourself...well, that's something at least.

Zoombie said:

Maybe this is just me being a starry eyed optimist...but I think that IS something a woman can do. Maybe, inside at least one out of every ten sexists, there is someone who doesn't realize exactly what is going on. Ignorance and peer pressure and all that.

Maybe that person just needs a few examples to counteract what they're indoctrinated with. And if you can reach that one person just by being yourself...well, that's something at least.

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But if the guy the woman tries to educate is not that one out of ten, or if he's the only one out of the gang of twenty he hangs with, she can end up in the hospital or worse.

ETA: I think there's a point at which social progress becomes like the economy: We all participate and we all can affect how it goes, but if it goes too badly off the rails, the best course for individuals becomes different from the best course for the whole group.

Example: In the current bad economy, it is better, safer and wiser for individuals to save money rather spend it. But all that saving depresses commerce and deepens the overall recession. But one cannot expect individuals to bankrupt themselves now to save everyone years from now.

Likewise, every person can influence the social norms and relationships around us, but if the social dynamic gets too far off kilter, people have to address their own safety before they worry about the direction of society. We can't ask women to put themselves in the way of a fist or a knife in the hope of enlightening a few strangers.

It's times like this when I think the world needs a little more socialism. In a lot of ways progressive socialist public/government programs seem hokey and forced, but during the 20th century, we saw them have good results that made it easier for individuals to reach out to others over time.

That is a snag...still, we CAN do things. We have to believe this, because A) There's no hope otherwise and without hope, why even bother processing oxygen.

And B) Because we have done amazing things in astoundingly short periods of time. Hell, going from women having almost no rights to now in a century, when (for about 9,000 years) things weren't even imagined to be different is pretty good, all things considered.

So, we just need to keep doing what we're doing, only more so. And I know that authors are going to be leading the charge on this. We NEED to present the word that we want to see in our writing. Because people learn from their stories, and so we better make them good stories.

Or something like that.

Well, yeah, that's a program of cultural education I can totally endorse. I agree entirely, Zoombie.

Women in the US may have this happen; I did in High School. The admin did nothing about it! There were so many guys in such a small set of stairs and a corridor that you just couldn't get defensive-aggressive because it was maybe 12 on 1.

My friend got groped daily, but they kept their hands a few inches away from me with my badass glare. It was still disgusting and scary, of course.

I realize it's hard to take on a mob for anyone, but if it were even a minor arrestable offense, it could be handled with the police. Surely it's clear enough when it's harassment that a few tickets could be given out? It would break up the mobs, at least, if the fine were high enough.

We have meter maids and yet we can't figure out how to deter this? I'm not buying it. We must not care enough. I don't know enough about Belgians to compare, but I feel comfortable saying it about the US.

Monkey said:

Like Missesdash, I also consider myself a strong woman... but the girl on camera was being harassed by large groups of men and so often. Who wants to fight that many people, or that often? How long before you'd be beaten into submission the way these scumbags want or else killed for refusing to break? It seems like the best choice she has is to keep walking, politely refuse, try to diffuse the situation. And that makes me furious.

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Me too; because she shouldn't have to. No one should.

One really worrisome element in these stories is the pack mentality. If the bike-riding halfwit Muravyets encountered in New York had been one of a group of a dozen, it might have been very bad.

So there's the answer- Wear a wedding ring, or never wear a skirt in public. I'm so angered by this. What's the Arabic word for scumbag? Or coward? Or for the phrase, when you emigrate to another culture, you can only do so if you sign an agreement that says you promise to leave your backward, 18th Century views behind? And before anyone accuses me of racist views, I am half Arabic myself. Christian Arab, and two generations removed, and I have to say that what I saw in my father's side of the family was not misogynist at all. On the contrary, women seemed to be held in reverence. But I am sickened by this. Anyone ever get the feeling that one half of the world is trying to drag the other half into the 21st Century?

As I was watching, I so hoped to see a gang of this girl's male friends come flying around the corner and do a thorough sidewalk clean-up, the only thing idiots understand.

I have an idea- let's take the guns away from all the men in the world and arm every woman. The human race has made no progress.

Where are the authorities in cases like this and the times the women do get hit? By all rights these men should be fined and/or forced to spend a couple nights in jail because of it. The sad part is if the police did start going out of their way to protect the women from these guys, they'd be called racists and intolerant because the people they fine will mostly be muslims from other countries.

Bebop said:

So there's the answer- Wear a wedding ring, or never wear a skirt in public. I'm so angered by this. What's the Arabic word for scumbag? Or coward? Or for the phrase, when you emigrate to another culture, you can only do so if you sign an agreement that says you promise to leave your backward, 18th Century views behind? And before anyone accuses me of racist views, I am half Arabic myself. Christian Arab, and two generations removed, and I have to say that what I saw in my father's side of the family was not misogynist at all. On the contrary, women seemed to be held in reverence. But I am sickened by this. Anyone ever get the feeling that one half of the world is trying to drag the other half into the 21st Century?

As I was watching, I so hoped to see a gang of this girl's male friends come flying around the corner and do a thorough sidewalk clean-up, the only thing idiots understand.

I have an idea- let's take the guns away from all the men in the world and arm every woman. The human race has made no progress.

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Funny, France has exactly that. They have an entire assimilation and integration program and seminar. One of the seminars have a two hour section about gender equality (which, I had no idea, progressed much slower here than it did in the US).

And yet. This.

I agree, they'd be labeled as racist. Everything is ass backwards.

Hard to prove something like this- and the police can't be everywhere.

It would be nice though, to see harsh penalties handed out.

Shadow Dragon said:

Where are the authorities in cases like this and the times the women do get hit? By all rights these men should be fined and/or forced to spend a couple nights in jail because of it. The sad part is if the police did start going out of their way to protect the women from these guys, they'd be called racists and intolerant because the people they fine will mostly be muslims from other countries.

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I should hope not in actual cases of abuse. And allowing women to get targeted isn't exactly leaving them free of critisism either. If they are going to get grieve anyway-you might as well do the right thing.

A police pressence would prevent it. I can't see any of these asshats acting like that in fron of a uniform...but...I know the numbers aren't enough...

missesdash said:

Funny, France has exactly that. They have an entire assimilation and integration program and seminar. One of the seminars have a two hour section about gender equality (which, I had no idea, progressed much slower here than it did in the US).

And yet. This.

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Yeah, I do remember hearing about that. What i said was half in jest, 'cause you know, an asshole will be an asshole no matter what. It's so easy to see why people, after losing all patience with this kind of thing, want to paint an entire religion with the idiot brush. I don't have a real answer. All I know is that stupid people only understand one thing. Retribution.

Interesting documentary. Growing up in Scotland was very much like that, though all the guys were white and Scottish, not foreigners. The invention of the Walkman was a godsend. I've traveled quite a bit and found it to be mostly the same in rougher areas of most cities.

Baggy clothes, short hair, hats, headphones, no eye contact, fierce expression: I spent the majority of my life trying to pass for a boy, lol. So strange, in 2012, that everything is the same as it ever was.

Just a question for the women on here who have spent enough time in the States to know--- Is it not as bad here?

EDIT FOR CLARITY-- Not as bad here as what you perceive it to be around the world or what you've experienced yourselves?

Bebop said:

Just a question for the women on here who have spent enough time in the States to know--- Is it not as bad here?

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Well, I haven't lived in NY, but I've lived in a variety of other states. No, it's not as bad, but my friends and I still get the occasional "cat call" -- ie, -- nice ass, you want my number, etc...

It's not quite as bad as being called slut or whore. It wasn't that bad in Egypt, though. Most were generally respectful except for the occasional douche asking my dad to buy me and my sisters for x amount of camels.

I'm hesitant to ask, but what are your thoughts on what the one guy she interviewed said? He was talking about the conflict between a sexually repressed upbringing and and a hyper-sexualized society.

thebloodfiend said:

Well, I haven't lived in NY, but I've lived in a variety of other states. No, it's not as bad, but my friends and I still get the occasional "cat call" -- ie, -- nice ass, you want my number, etc...

It's not quite as bad as being called slut or whore. It wasn't that bad in Egypt, though. Most were generally respectful except for the occasional douche asking my dad to buy me and my sisters for x amount of camels.

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Not as bad in Egypt? And I'm assuming that by camel you mean the animal and not the cigarette? Now that would be offensive! Sincerely nice to know that the US is better than the other places you visited. Thanks.

jmare said:

I'm hesitant to ask, but what are your thoughts on what the one guy she interviewed said? He was talking about the conflict between a sexually repressed upbringing and and a hyper-sexualized society.

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I don't doubt it. But there are things like self-restraint, and empathy, and respect for others. This is dregs of the gene pool stuff. Human nature, so said Katie Hepburn, is what we are put on this earth to overcome.

By the way, if your surname is Mare, we may be related. Joking, I know it's a common name.

Ireland's not bad. That may be because here people don't really talk to people they don't know...

CQuinlan said:

Ireland's not bad. That may be because here people don't really talk to people they don't know...

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A wise policy.

Bebop said:

Not as bad in Egypt? And I'm assuming that by camel you mean the animal and not the cigarette? Now that would be offensive! Sincerely nice to know that the US is better than the other places you visited. Thanks.

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Animal. They mostly smoke marlboros over there.

It's not that the US is better, persay. It is, but...

The sexism is just more obvious over there. It's like racism in the southern US vs racism in the southwest US.

Bebop said:

I don't doubt it. But there are things like self-restraint, and empathy, and respect for others. This is dregs of the gene pool stuff. Human nature, so said Katie Hepburn, is what we are put on this earth to overcome.

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I agree, I just think there are mixed messages coming from society. On the one hand it's "Respect women. Respect women. Respect women." and on the other it's "Hey, buy this car/drink this beer/use this deodorant/wear these clothes and women will want to fuck you".

By the way, if your surname is Mare, we may be related. Joking, I know it's a common name.

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No it's not. It's an anagram of my kids' initials.

thebloodfiend said:

Animal. They mostly smoke marlboros over there.

It's not that the US is better, persay. It is, but...

The sexism is just more obvious over there. It's like racism in the southern US vs racism in the southwest US.

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You giveth and then you taketh away.

Bebop said:

Not as bad in Egypt? And I'm assuming that by camel you mean the animal and not the cigarette? Now that would be offensive! Sincerely nice to know that the US is better than the other places you visited. Thanks.

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It's definitely not as bad in the US. There are places, like very sketchy inner city areas, where I'm more likely to be bothered in the US. But in Paris it doesn't matter where you are. You only have to be outside of your house. When my friend was punched in the face for not giving some dude a kiss (and laughed at by his friends) we were right near the Eiffel tower, on some of the most expensive real estate in the city.

And since tourists aren't likely to be trudging through drug riddled areas in baltimore city, I'd say it's really pleasant to visit.

jmare said:

the conflict between a sexually repressed upbringing and and a hyper-sexualized society.

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I don't know if that is a bad excuse or what.

In my experiences with Latin cultures (Mexico, Puerto Rico, Panama, Brazil), I never really saw anything more offensive than when I was in the US. And I'd certainly call them hyper-sexualized and repressed at the same time. Not that these kind of treatment doesn't exist, but that it might be less aggressive and/or less obvious - I've seen more overt forms of sexism and chauvanism, but not harrassment.