Michigan Anti-Abortion Bill, 'Most Extreme' In The Country

Lyv

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I keep finding articles that claim there is a "narrow" exception for the life of the mother, but not the health of the mother (not really comforting). The ACLU Their page also has this:

These bills would also criminalize a doctor who prescribes methotrexate to treat an ectopic pregnancy, even though that is the standard of care for many women. This ban would force these women to undergo completely unnecessary surgeries instead.

I'm trying to find that in the bill, but reading the bill itself has me sick. I almost can't believe what I'm reading.
 

benbradley

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I have come to the conclusion that it's not about saving lives, it's about ending abortions. These politicians don't care about the fetus, the mother, or the child that may be born so long as they can be said to have gotten rid of those nasty abortions.
But it WON'T end abortions, it will only (for all practical purposes) end LEGAL abortions.
I just hope they're ready for the spate of deaths at the hands of back-alley abortionists, and women hurling themselves down stairs/taking to the coathanger.

Banning abortions won't stop a desperate woman from seeking one.
Something came to mind, even before reading this post. when I saw the 'most extreme' in the title, just a what-if. What if each representative who supports this bill received many large envelopes, each one from a constituent who opposes the bill. If I were a resident of Michigan I'd be more tempted, as I could put my Michigan return address on it (as I recall, USPS regulations requires a return address anyway). I'd write something on the back, like "You might stop legal abortions, but you won't stop abortions."

Nine-by-12-inch envelopes
are 17 cents each, first class postage for something this light is about a couple dollars, and everyone has an extra coathanger in the closet.

Not advocating anything, I'm just sayin'...
 

Celia Cyanide

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I have come to the conclusion that it's not about saving lives, it's about ending abortions. These politicians don't care about the fetus, the mother, or the child that may be born so long as they can be said to have gotten rid of those nasty abortions.

They don't even care about getting rid of abortions. Abortion used to be illegal in this country, and they happened all the time. They know women will still have abortions, but as long as they are illegal and dangerous, they don't care.

Before Roe V Wade, there was no "pro-life" movement. Nobody was out there cracking down on illegal abortions to save the poor little fetus when the woman died, too.
 

Niiicola

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Don't worry, it's not just the women they don't care about. It's also the baby once it's born. Turns out most of these people only really care about helping embryos/fetuses. After that they're on their own.

I clearly don't get it.
 

thethinker42

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Why do I feel like this is all just an incredibly cruel way of punishing women who have sex and terrifying the rest of them into celibacy?
 

virtue_summer

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They don't even care about getting rid of abortions. Abortion used to be illegal in this country, and they happened all the time. They know women will still have abortions, but as long as they are illegal and dangerous, they don't care.
QFT. It's about appearances.
 

muravyets

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I've certainly got the message that a living woman means nothing anymore. The only thing that matters is the collection of cells in her womb.

Excuse me while I go beat my pillow.
No, the collection of cells doesn't mean anything, either. All they care about is keeping women in a second-class status of dependency.

I am extremely angry right now.
 

Seraph

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It's a subtle way of slut shaming, no actual caring involved.
 

Purple Rose

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It's a subtle way of slut shaming, no actual caring involved.

I don't understand - what's subtle about this? And what's with the slut reference? My daughters are young and unmarried. If one of them got pregnant while in university, I would hope she would opt for an abortion. That does not make her a slut.

Maybe I'm missing something. Maybe there's sarcasm in the above statement that I have completely missed.
 

Zoombie

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I don't understand - what's subtle about this? And what's with the slut reference? My daughters are young and unmarried. If one of them got pregnant while in university, I would hope she would opt for an abortion. That does not make her a slut.

Maybe I'm missing something. Maybe there's sarcasm in the above statement that I have completely missed.

"Slut shaming" is a fucking monstrous social construct where women and men shame "sluts", in this case, any woman who does ANYTHING even SLIGHTLY OUT OF THEIR NORMS.

Wear something sexy? Slut!
Wear something not sexy enough? Dyke
Have sex on a first date? Slut!
Don't have sex until you want? Frozen bitch.

Slut. Whore. Dyke. Bitch.

You don't have to say the words out loud for them to be in effect.

It's disgusting, endemic and if I could punch culture in the kidneys until it stops with this shit, I would be punching SO HARD RIGHT NOW.
 

regdog

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Manuel Royal

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"Slut shaming" is a fucking monstrous social construct where women and men shame "sluts", in this case, any woman who does ANYTHING even SLIGHTLY OUT OF THEIR NORMS.
Like in Ireland when the government was still dominated by the Catholic Church, and teenage girls were sentenced -- by a court of law -- to be slave labor in convents.

The kind of agenda you're talking about is the only one I can make sense of here. They don't really care about fetuses (not lining up to pay for prenatal care, for one thing). They don't want to supply contraception and sex education -- quite the opposite. The same anti-abortion rights people have nothing but contempt for unwed mothers in poor neighborhoods. A lot of them seem to have religious fanaticism as a motivation -- but they ignore anything in their own religion that doesn't fit their political agenda.

("They", in this case, includes a lot of women. Many of whom probably have discreet, out-of-state, private-clinic abortions in their past.)

And, Hell, there are people who want to outlaw contraception. Not just babbling nuts on the street corner, but people with elected positions.

It's like an immense hysterical backlash against a century of social progress. Suddenly things that I thought were settled when I was a child are burning controversies.
 

thebloodfiend

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And, Hell, there are people who want to outlaw contraception. Not just babbling nuts on the street corner, but people with elected positions.

Like a previous presidential candidate -- Santorum. It is quite amazing that these people actually get elected. It's like they don't like sex. Or women. Or sex with men. Or gays. Or pregnant women. Or babies. Or poor people.

But they get elected when they hate so many different types of people. It's quite amazing. Does Politics for Dummies say that it's easier to get into office if you're a douchebag who hates* most of the country?


*I know hate is a strong word, but "dislike" is just too weak, considering the circumstances.
 

Anaquana

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They don't even care about getting rid of abortions. Abortion used to be illegal in this country, and they happened all the time. They know women will still have abortions, but as long as they are illegal and dangerous, they don't care.

Before Roe V Wade, there was no "pro-life" movement. Nobody was out there cracking down on illegal abortions to save the poor little fetus when the woman died, too.

This is pretty much exactly my point, which I may not have expressed as well as I should have. Once abortions are effectively outlawed, then I doubt any of the "pro-life" people will even think about women forced to have back-alley abortions. So, *in their minds* they'll have gotten rid of abortion.
 

crunchyblanket

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Even if we stipulate that a fetus has the same rights as a person, some parts of this make no sense.

It makes no sense. Even if a foetus has the same rights as a person, there is NO law stating a person may use another person's body in order to live - I cannot, for example, hook myself up to the blood supply of another human being on the basis that if I don't I'll die. But that's what this law is all about: giving the foetus a right no fully functional human being has. Which is bloody nonsense.
 

Anaquana

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It makes no sense. Even if a foetus has the same rights as a person, there is NO law stating a person may use another person's body in order to live - I cannot, for example, hook myself up to the blood supply of another human being on the basis that if I don't I'll die. But that's what this law is all about: giving the foetus a right no fully functional human being has. Which is bloody nonsense.

I've asked "pro-life" people why, if they're willing to take away a woman's bodily autonomy to "save a life" why aren't they willing to take away everybody's bodily autonomy to save lives? Why aren't they calling for mandatory organ/blood/tissue donations since so many people die from lack of those? None of them can answer that question with anything more than that the woman chose to have sex and needs to take responsibility for her actions. And they just seem to get mad when it's pointed out that women who are raped aren't choosing to have sex.

I will never understand the "pro-life" position as anything more than "anti-sex".
 

Celia Cyanide

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This is pretty much exactly my point, which I may not have expressed as well as I should have. Once abortions are effectively outlawed, then I doubt any of the "pro-life" people will even think about women forced to have back-alley abortions. So, *in their minds* they'll have gotten rid of abortion.

Exactly. Out of sight, out of mind.

I remember when I was 12, and I went to a Catholic grade school. I gave a presentation on why abortion needed to be kept safe and legal, and I mentioned back alley abortions. After I read my report, a girl asked the teacher, "but if they make it illegal, won't they stop doing it?" She genuinely didn't know that abortion used to be illegal, and it still happened. These adults should know better.
 

leahzero

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I think it's important to see this insanity not as "pro-life" or "anti-abortion," but as anti-woman.

Because that's what this is really about. Controlling women through their reproductive systems.
 

Alessandra Kelley

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...

It's like an immense hysterical backlash against a century of social progress. Suddenly things that I thought were settled when I was a child are burning controversies.

Nothing is ever really settled. It's why we must not get complacent about social reforms, no matter how secure we think we are.

Looking at the twentieth century, there was always an undercurrent of seething resentment of the social reforms of Theodore Roosevelt, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Harry Truman, Lyndon Johnson, Bill Clinton, and other progressives. There were always people keeping the fires of offended rage burning.

Heck, some people never got over their fury at women being given the right to vote. Even people not so dogmatic joked about "women voters" for decades afterwards, and that stupid myth about hatpins is still repeated as historic truth.

What gives me hope, behind my own wrath, is running across happily contented statements by anti-progressives that they are satisfied about this or that issue now that things are truly settled.

Nothing is ever really settled.
 

Bartholomew

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I used to consider myself pro-life, because I was considering the nature of the words. I'm generally for the preservation of life. I'm also for the preservation of the right to choose, but logically, choosing to end life seems terrible. So I've considered myself pro-life.

That is, if a woman asked my opinion about her pregnancy, and she was healthy and in a good position to raise a child, or else the child had good prospects at being raised well by some other group, then I'd advise her toward keeping the child. I doubt I'll ever be solicited for this opinion. There are also a wide array of circumstances where I'd advice abortion, though, instead. Rape, poor health of the child, poor health of the mother, severe poverty--these are all valid reasons to abort a pregnancy. Having a baby could still be a good idea for someone who wants one enough to consider going through with it in these situations anyway, but it's not a good idea at that particular moment in the woman's life. There's that "L" word again.

At the same time, I think every city needs a clinic where cheap, clean, professional abortions are performed without question. It's a medical procedure; it's really sad when a baby dies, but also really sad when a baby is born severely disabled, stillborn, or when the mother is killed or injured because of birth. Abortions need to be accessible anonymously, and they need to be covered by insurances. The same is true of contraceptives, because sex is a healthy adult activity and above all, a private one that no one should be able to legislate, and that no outside force should have control over.

So I guess despite liking the words "pro-life" way better, and despite the advice that I would give a woman if she asked me, I'm actually pro-choice in the end, because I don't think women should have to live in a patriarchal and theocratic dystopia.

Looking at you here, Michigan.
 

Manuel Royal

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Heck, some people never got over their fury at women being given the right to vote. Even people not so dogmatic joked about "women voters" for decades afterwards, and that stupid myth about hatpins is still repeated as historic truth.
You bet. Pastor (regular guest on Sean Hannity) laments women having the vote.

What's the myth about hatpins? All I could find was a reference to an English judge ordering suffragettes in his courtroom to remove their hatpins.
 

Alessandra Kelley

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You bet. Pastor (regular guest on Sean Hannity) laments women having the vote.

What's the myth about hatpins? All I could find was a reference to an English judge ordering suffragettes in his courtroom to remove their hatpins.

Oh, the story was that female suffragists ("suffragette" was an insulting diminutive) used their hatpins as weapons to stab people. No such incident was ever documented and verified, but it was and still is repeated as gospel. It was why that judge ordered hatpins removed. Something of an insult, really, and a real nuisance, as anyone who has worn a hairstyle and hat in the 1910 style knows.

Even L. Frank Baum repeated the charge, in one of the Oz books.