Michigan Anti-Abortion Bill, 'Most Extreme' In The Country

virtue_summer

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I actually believe that abortion should be available. But I see the argument that it's murder. No, I don't think the bread-basket analogy is a very good one. A new born baby can't live on it's own either. It's completely dependent on its caregiver. If a woman (or any caregiver) were to neglect that duty, after birth, they would be tossed in prison.
Not true. So far as I know there is no law that says a mother must donate her body to that baby if she doesn't want to, even if that would mean the baby would die. This isn't caregiving we're talking about. This is the fetus using the woman's body as life support, using her organs and her blood, etc. There's a difference between asking me to wrap up a newborn baby in a blanket to keep it warm and asking me to keep it inside my body for nine months where it presses on my organs. There's a difference between asking me to feed a baby who's outside of my body and requiring me to feed one via my blood.

To be consistent anti-abortionists should recognize what pregnancy is and apply the same logic to other situations like organ or blood donations and call them murder too.
 
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Mustafa

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Not true. So far as I know there is no law that says a mother must donate her body to that baby if she doesn't want to, even if that would mean the baby would die. This isn't caregiving we're talking about. This is the fetus using the woman's body as life support, using her organs and her blood, etc. There's a difference between asking me to wrap up a newborn baby in a blanket to keep it warm and asking me to keep it inside my body for nine months where it presses on my organs. There's a difference between asking me to feed a baby who's outside of my body and requiring me to feed one via my blood.

To be consistent anti-abortionists should recognize what pregnancy is and apply the same logic to other situations like organ or blood donations and call them murder too.

You're not using logic either, Virtue. Mothers/caregivers are compelled to take care of their kids. Even if that means putting strain on their backs, muscles, hearts. Even if it means being sleep deprived etc etc. Sharing a body with a baby, is just something that it is to be a woman. This is not a negative thing. It's not a chore. It's wonderful. It's a miracle. It's just one of the things that makes women-kind truly amazing. To be honest, I find your abortion = not donating an organ, analogy kind of offensive. And remember, I'm not even against abortion. I think you're trivializing pregnancy.

Abortion is a medical procedure that is not without risks. It's something that a woman should consider carefully with the help of her physician. I think women do consider it carefully, and I support that right.

I don't think women who have had abortions should be labeled "murderer." I was only trying to say that I understood that argument. I think understanding what the other side is saying is really the only thing that either side can hope to accomplish. No resolution will ever be reached.

I am annoyed whenever one side, either side, calls the other side's opinions "idiotic" or "ridiculous." Saying such things makes that person seem very ignorant.
 

Xelebes

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You're not using logic either, Virtue. Mothers/caregivers are compelled to take care of their kids. Even if that means putting strain on their backs, muscles, hearts. Even if it means being sleep deprived etc etc. Sharing a body with a baby, is just something that it is to be a woman. This is not a negative thing. It's not a chore. It's wonderful. It's a miracle.

Now who isn't using logic? It's a miracle? No, it is called life. A chemical recombination that results into a legal entity individual of the woman. Attempting to use miracle, sanctity and God's Will as basis for law is to impose religion into law.

It's just one of the things that makes women-kind truly amazing.

But does that make her not human (or, a legal person) like the rest of mankind?
 

Celia Cyanide

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It's not that simple. For those people who believe life begins at conception, abortion is murder. Of course they are going to do what they can to abolish abortion.

This is why I think it IS that simple:

If murder were legal, we would all be in danger.

You (and that's the collective you, vsrenard, I know you personally don't agree with the pro-life position) have absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe that anyone will abort you or anyone you love. Or even anyone you met once and thought seemed like a nice enough person. It doesn't happen.

So it really is that simple to just not do it.
 

Celia Cyanide

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You're not using logic either, Virtue. Mothers/caregivers are compelled to take care of their kids. Even if that means putting strain on their backs, muscles, hearts. Even if it means being sleep deprived etc etc. Sharing a body with a baby, is just something that it is to be a woman. This is not a negative thing. It's not a chore. It's wonderful. It's a miracle. It's just one of the things that makes women-kind truly amazing. To be honest, I find your abortion = not donating an organ, analogy kind of offensive. And remember, I'm not even against abortion. I think you're trivializing pregnancy.

No, she's not. Pregnancy and motherhood are not the same thing. Motherhood is a choice. Pregnancy can lead to motherhood. However, pregnancy can happen by accident, it most certainly can be a chore, and be something a woman does not want. It is not "just something that it is to be a woman."
 

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Now who isn't using logic? It's a miracle? No, it is called life. A chemical recombination that results into a legal entity individual of the woman. Attempting to use miracle, sanctity and God's Will as basis for law is to impose religion into law.



But does that make her not human (or, a legal person) like the rest of mankind?

You're a writer, right? I expect you to understand terms and that there is more than one meaning for certian words. "Miraculous: Highly improbable and extraordinary and bringing very welcome consequences."

Anyone who has studied biology, and the intricate things that happen to bring about the creation of life - through evolution (which is how I believe we all got here) - would agree that that definition fits the bill.
 

Mustafa

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No, she's not. Pregnancy and motherhood are not the same thing. Motherhood is a choice. Pregnancy can lead to motherhood. However, pregnancy can happen by accident, it most certainly can be a chore, and be something a woman does not want. It is not "just something that it is to be a woman."

I'm sure it can be an accident. I'm sure it's often an accident. But being able to become pregnant is something unique to women. That is what I was saying. Comparing it to a bread-basket is needlessly trivializing.
 

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Sharing a body with a baby, is just something that it is to be a woman. This is not a negative thing. It's not a chore. It's wonderful. It's a miracle.

That's your opinion. To me, it IS a negative thing. It's the curse of womanhood. Pregnancy is one of the most horrific things I can imagine ever happening to me.
 

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I'm sure it can be an accident. I'm sure it's often an accident. But being able to become pregnant is something unique to women. That is what I was saying.

Yes, but what you actually said was that pregnancy was "not a chore" and "not a negative thing." If a woman doesn't want it, it can be. That is why virtue_summer is not trivializing pregnancy. She is acknowledging that if a woman doesn't want it, it's a whole different experience.
 

thebloodfiend

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You're not using logic either, Virtue. Mothers/caregivers are compelled to take care of their kids. Even if that means putting strain on their backs, muscles, hearts. Even if it means being sleep deprived etc etc.
Not really. There are things like adoption, abandonment (legal in some states), foster care, etc... And all mothers aren't exactly compelled to take care of their kids. Ask anyone whose mother has walked out on them for trivial reasons. *cough* Me. Motherhood is a choice. Getting pregnant is not. Otherwise, I'd be able to shut my ovulation on and off with a fingersnap. That'd be quite convenient, actually.
Sharing a body with a baby, is just something that it is to be a woman. This is not a negative thing. It's not a chore. It's wonderful. It's a miracle. It's just one of the things that makes women-kind truly amazing.
To you, it might be a wonderful, amazing experience. For some, it is not. There's honestly nothing in the world I dread more than getting pregnant. I would consider it a chore. Being pregnant does not make someone any more or less of a woman. Yes, it is something that only women can do (for now, anyway) but it isn't a defining quality of womanhood.
To be honest, I find your abortion = not donating an organ, analogy kind of offensive. And remember, I'm not even against abortion. I think you're trivializing pregnancy.
To be completely honest, I don't see why pregnancy is put up on a pedestal as one of the best, honorable things about being a woman. It's insulting, to me, that my uterus gets so much attention, while I, the person, am often invisible. This isn't to single you out, Mustafa, but it's something that I've been noticing way too much. Yes, pregnancy is difficult. Yes, having a child is difficult. Yes, it can be a wonderful experience -- for some. But it is not a universal experience of magical wonder and awe. Taking care of your born child, loving them, nurturing them -- that's what's important. I'm sorry, but almost any woman can have a kid. Only some can be good mothers.

If the pregnancy is difficult, and the woman realizes she won't be a good mother, I applaud her decision to not having a child just because she feels compelled by society/a guy/a girl/whatever to do so.
Abortion is a medical procedure that is not without risks. It's something that a woman should consider carefully with the help of her physician. I think women do consider it carefully, and I support that right.

I don't think women who have had abortions should be labeled "murderer." I was only trying to say that I understood that argument. I think understanding what the other side is saying is really the only thing that either side can hope to accomplish. No resolution will ever be reached.
You know, I understand the reasons why pro-lifers are anti-abortion, just like I understand the reasons why some are against gay marriage. That doesn't mean they're logical. Nor does that mean I have to spread my empathy across the table, nodding my head in agreement, trying to find a middle ground. I think we all understand that the pro-life argument is more than just "it's murder" or "we hate women," but that doesn't mean it makes any logical sense.

I have yet to see a pro-life argument that makes sense to me, that doesn't bring potential life into the equation, that doesn't hinge on murder, infanticide, God, blaming the woman for being irresponsible because her body decided to house a zygote, or that frames the fetus/zygote as a person with more, or equal rights to the woman.

I can respect some of these arguments more than others, but they're all emotional or based on personal morals.

I am annoyed whenever one side, either side, calls the other side's opinions "idiotic" or "ridiculous." Saying such things makes that person seem very ignorant.
I don't think anyone has said Chrissy is idiotic or ridiculous. Now, the dumbasses in congress who're so afraid of women that they can't even utter the big bad evil word "vagina"? The jackasses who sit outside planned parent hood and call women murders or bomb the clinics? Well, I can't exactly say I think they're full of intelligence and superiority.
 
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virtue_summer

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I'm sure it can be an accident. I'm sure it's often an accident. But being able to become pregnant is something unique to women. That is what I was saying. Comparing it to a bread-basket is needlessly trivializing.
I think there's been a miscommunication. I meant to compare the attitude that pregnancy is just the woman carrying the baby around for nine months to treating the mother as nothing more than a container to hold the fetus (a breadbox or basket, the oven into which the bun is put, pick whichever silly analogy you'd like). My point was that pregnancy isn't trivial at all.
 

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You're not using logic either, Virtue. Mothers/caregivers are compelled to take care of their kids. Even if that means putting strain on their backs, muscles, hearts. Even if it means being sleep deprived etc etc. Sharing a body with a baby, is just something that it is to be a woman. This is not a negative thing. It's not a chore. It's wonderful. It's a miracle. It's just one of the things that makes women-kind truly amazing. To be honest, I find your abortion = not donating an organ, analogy kind of offensive. And remember, I'm not even against abortion. I think you're trivializing pregnancy.
And that's why women should not be allowed to own their own bodies and decide how they will or will not be used? Yeah, I know you're not trying to say that, but I hear that nonsense so often, from people who are anti-choice and from people who I wish would stop saying that stuff because it really doesn't help.

Statements like that seem to be trivializing women in order to aggrandize pregnancy. As a woman, speaking personally, I don't really appreciate having my reproductive organs elevated above the rest of me in importance, as what defines me as a human being, nor do I appreciate all these other people - the anti-choice folks - laying claim to the specialness of my uterus and pushing the rest of me to the background, telling me what I'm not allowed to do with my life because they're so amazed about where babies come from. That does not make me feel amazing. It makes me feel pissed off.

Abortion is a medical procedure that is not without risks. It's something that a woman should consider carefully with the help of her physician. I think women do consider it carefully, and I support that right.
The legislators of Michigan disagree with you and me on that score. They think they should get to make those decisions, not us unreliable women and the doctors who are just enablers of our delusion that we are intelligent beings capable of sound judgment.

I don't think women who have had abortions should be labeled "murderer." I was only trying to say that I understood that argument. I think understanding what the other side is saying is really the only thing that either side can hope to accomplish. No resolution will ever be reached.

I am annoyed whenever one side, either side, calls the other side's opinions "idiotic" or "ridiculous." Saying such things makes that person seem very ignorant.
I'll be honest with you, I don't really see a value in reaching a resolution, presumably based on compromise, with people who want to take away the most fundamental of human rights, the right to bodily integrity and self determination, from a particular segment of the population.
 

muravyets

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You're a writer, right? I expect you to understand terms and that there is more than one meaning for certian words. "Miraculous: Highly improbable and extraordinary and bringing very welcome consequences."

Anyone who has studied biology, and the intricate things that happen to bring about the creation of life - through evolution (which is how I believe we all got here) - would agree that that definition fits the bill.
If it's so highly improbable, why are there currently about 7 billion people in the world?

I wrote earlier about how the odds are stacked against pregnancy and live birth for humans, but that only goes to show just how common and un-miraculous human reproduction is. We're at it so frequently that, despite upwards of 50% of all fertilizations failing, we're still wildly overpopulating the planet.

Pregnancy is not miraculous. It's ordinary. It is really not much different from anything else our bodies evolved to do, nor does it set us apart from any other sexually reproducing species.

It's also not easy and not all that safe, either. It does a ton of damage to a woman's body, and the more pregnancies a woman goes through, the more permanent, long-term damage she suffers. Not to mention that every pregnancy is a crap shoot with death for the woman anyway.

You're right that abortion is something women need to and do consider carefully with their doctors. Pregnancy even more so. It's way more dangerous.

Whether the argument is that pregnancy means one is having a precious little baby, or that pregnancy itself is a rare and precious miracle, both are equally empty. On an individual level, no pregnancy is a sure thing. Women who are sexually active are very likely to go through more unsuccessful fertilizations, even with standard birth control, than they will even know ever occurred. But on a species-wide level, babies are as plentiful as dirt.
 
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virtue_summer

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To be honest, I find your abortion = not donating an organ, analogy kind of offensive.
Can I ask you why you find the analogy offensive? Organ/tissue/blood donations can help save lives, but they're not without risks and this is why we make such things voluntary. Carrying a pregnancy to term and letting the fetus use your womb, draw nutrients from your blood, press on your organs, etc, can support the fetus' life, but it's also not without risks and that's why I think it should also be voluntary.
 

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Yes, but what you actually said was that pregnancy was "not a chore" and "not a negative thing." If a woman doesn't want it, it can be. That is why virtue_summer is not trivializing pregnancy. She is acknowledging that if a woman doesn't want it, it's a whole different experience.
In my experience, the pregnancies I wanted and planned were also quite a chore. And while it was fun looking forward to having the baby, the pregnancy itself was very uncomfortable, a strain and a drain on all of my systems, and included close to a year of barely being able to sleep and night or digest food. And that's without including complications like preterm contractions requiring bedrest with my last one.

Sure, I went through that willingly because I wanted to have kids. But it kind of pisses me off to see a man pretending like he knows that pregnancy is just some universally wonderful condition. I'd rate it "interesting" at best.
 

Mustafa

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I wish I could respond to everyone's posts. Perhaps I'll post a rep comment over the next day or so. But I haven't the time and this will e my last post of the evening. That's not meant to be flippant.

I will say, just generally, that when I brought up the "not a chore" post, it was in response to a post that talked about the squashing of organs, and the strain on a body. I was trying, perhaps unsuccessfully, to say that to a great many, it is not a chore. And calling it that trivializes something that is, truly, miraculous. That it's common now does not negate how truly awesome the journey to this point has been (speaking in terms of evolutionary biology).

Also, I think its important to realize that pro-life arguments might seem ridiculous to some, but pro-choice arguments seem equally ridiculous to others. Which is why I thought dismissing either side to be counter-productive to useful discussions.

In the end it comes down to morality. There are valid reasons to restrict abortions. Just like there are valid reasons to make such procedures available. Weather you personally agree or disagree with the reasons does not make them any less valid.

It's an interesting debate when people don't get their backs up. But it's a heated topic. There is a lot on the line. On both sides.
 

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It's an interesting debate when people don't get their backs up. But it's a heated topic. There is a lot on the line. On both sides.

This is where I completely 100% disagree with you. The only thing on the line for the anti-abortion side is their sense of moral superiority. The anti-abortion crowd has absolutely no personal stake involved in this fight. Nothing in their physical lives is impacted in any way shape or form by other women having the choice to have an abortion or not. With women considering abortion is where there's a lot on the line -- their lives, their financial security, their mental health, their physical health, the physical well-being of the fetus, etc.
 

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I've been pregnant twice. Both times were planned. The babies were wanted. But pregnancy was NOT one big 24/7 Kodak-isn't-this-a-so-wonderful moment. I don't think pregnancy is this hallowed, dreamy thing. It is exhausting. It's taxing on the body. And in my case, both kids were delivered via c-section, which is also very traumatic on the body. I have nerve damage where the incisions were made (one atop the other) so I have no feeling in from almost hip to hip. With my first, I was nauseous 24 hours a day for almost four months and it was two weeks after her birth before I could walk upright. It was a chore, both times. But because I wanted my kids, it was a chore I was willing to do.
 

RichardGarfinkle

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You're a writer, right? I expect you to understand terms and that there is more than one meaning for certian words. "Miraculous: Highly improbable and extraordinary and bringing very welcome consequences."

Anyone who has studied biology, and the intricate things that happen to bring about the creation of life - through evolution (which is how I believe we all got here) - would agree that that definition fits the bill.

If it's so highly improbable, why are there currently about 7 billion people in the world?

I wrote earlier about how the odds are stacked against pregnancy and live birth for humans, but that only goes to show just how common and un-miraculous human reproduction is. We're at it so frequently that, despite upwards of 50% of all fertilizations failing, we're still wildly overpopulating the planet.

Pregnancy is not miraculous. It's ordinary. It is really not much different from anything else our bodies evolved to do, nor does it set us apart from any other sexually reproducing species.

It's also not easy and not all that safe, either. It does a ton of damage to a woman's body, and the more pregnancies a woman goes through, the more permanent, long-term damage she suffers. Not to mention that every pregnancy is a crap shoot with death for the woman anyway.

You're right that abortion is something women need to and do consider carefully with their doctors. Pregnancy even more so. It's way more dangerous.

Whether the argument is that pregnancy means one is having a precious little baby, or that pregnancy itself is a rare and precious miracle, both are equally empty. On an individual level, no pregnancy is a sure thing. Women who are sexually active are very likely to go through more unsuccessful fertilizations, even with standard birth control, than they will even know ever occurred. But on a species-wide level, babies are as plentiful as dirt.

Ridiculously low probability events happen all the time. In probability theory what matters isn't just the probability of something happening but the expectation value which in this case is the probability of the event times the number of times you try it.

Suppose there was something that had a 1 in a million chance of happening to a given person each day. A person who lives to be 70 lives around 25,000 days. So the expectation value that this event would happen to a given person in their lifetime is 25,000/1,000,000 or about 2.5%, so pretty unlikely.

But with 7,000,000,000 people in the world the expectation value for the number of people this would happen to each day is 7,000,000,000/1,000,000 or 7000 which means that on an average day around 7000 people would have this event happen to them. The unlikely for the individual becomes an everyday event for everybody.

The low probability of the particular paths evolution took to get to our current circumstances aren't terribly relevant. Evolution happens, genetic diversity grows, natural selection culls and something happens to exist at the present time. It happens to be us and we happen to be living our lives.

That's good for us and creates circumstances in which our own low probability events can occur with regularity.

Consider just the genetic possibilities of a single child of two parents. Humans have 23 chromosome pairs, each child inherits one of each pair from each parent( leaving aside events like nondisjunction). So each chromosome pair is like two coin flips.

The probability then that a child will receive a particular set of chromosome pairings
is 1 / 2[SUP]46[/SUP] which is approximately 1/70,000,000,000,000. That looks low enough probability to be miraculous. Except that if human fertilization happens, one of these events does happen, some combination occurs.

Be impressed that this whole process can happen if you like, but it took a long time to evolve and from an engineering perspective it stinks. No sane designer would create a system with the risks, flaws, and the damage caused by human pregnancy as a means for bringing about life.

Evolution does not care, biology does not care. And the reality is that human pregnancy is an appalling system for bringing about new life.

But it's what we have. And when we choose to have children it's the system we have to use.

As for the impressiveness of women being able to do it. Women's bodies get pregnant. Their bodies nurture and grow zygotes to fetuses to children. Women can take care of their bodies and take care while pregnant to influence the health of the growing creature.

But it is not their work as human beings.

I have two children. My wife went through a lot to carry and bear them. I have no idea if I could have gone through what she did, but they are the work of biology and she suffered for the haphazardness of that work.

Her paintings and her other art, those are the work of her mind and her hands. She applied thought and skill to those creations. They are her works as a human being.

I am not saying that they are more important or more amazing than our children. They aren't, but as a human being her ability to create art is much more impressive than her ability to bear young which any female mammal can do.
 
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Devil Ledbetter

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Originally Posted by Mustafa
I wish I could respond to everyone's posts. Perhaps I'll post a rep comment over the next day or so.
Yeah, no. You can spare me anymore of your snarky rep comments. Thanks anyway.

No meant no. But thanks for revealing your complete inability to control yourself. Maybe there is some medication you can take for that?

In the future, if you want to debate my posts, do it out here.

Back to your regularly scheduled abortion debate, folks.
 

Celia Cyanide

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I will say, just generally, that when I brought up the "not a chore" post, it was in response to a post that talked about the squashing of organs, and the strain on a body. I was trying, perhaps unsuccessfully, to say that to a great many, it is not a chore. And calling it that trivializes something that is, truly, miraculous.

Oh, please! It does not! Would you please stop telling women how we are supposed to view something that happens only to us and never to you?
 

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Oh, please! It does not! Would you please stop telling women how we are supposed to view something that happens only to us and never to you?

Some women do find it miraculous, some find it so overwhelming they can't cope, some have such severe physical symptoms that they are incapacitated. I hadn't realized that mustafa was a man and while everyone is entitled to an opinion, talking about miracles, wonderment, privilege, etc about pregnancy, seems ridiculously presumptuous coming from one who has never experienced it - and never will.
 

Niiicola

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I will say, just generally, that when I brought up the "not a chore" post, it was in response to a post that talked about the squashing of organs, and the strain on a body. I was trying, perhaps unsuccessfully, to say that to a great many, it is not a chore. And calling it that trivializes something that is, truly, miraculous. That it's common now does not negate how truly awesome the journey to this point has been (speaking in terms of evolutionary biology).

Ummmm, as somebody who is currently three days shy of her due date, I'm going to have to disagree with you there. This shit is hard. Really, extremely taxing -- physically, emotionally, psychologically. Oh, did I mention physically? I can barely walk right now because it hurts so much. You're welcome to think it's miraculous, but saying something is or isn't a strain when you've never experienced it (and I'm going based off your profile, which says you're male) isn't really fair.