Woman 20p short for the bus raped

I guess I wasn't referring to the times so much as the place -- I have been to/lived in countries where people consistently are good and kind and generous to each other -- where such shocking behaviour shocks because it is so rare. Of course, there are assholes everywhere.

But I have also seen places change over the course of the decades -- for the worse. I've seen people getting harder, more selfish, more greedy, all in the space of 20 - 30 years. I've seen one place that was once a gentle paradise turn into a money-grabbing free-for-all.
England itself, I feel has certainly changed for the worse in my lifetime.

The nice thing about change is it always happens and in whatever direction we make it. Never give into the forces pushing you in one direction if you want to head in a different one. Always...always fight.

In this case, fight by not being a dick. It's a remarkably easy thing to do!

lorna_w said:

Well, it's maybe not so much blaming the victim as almost a superstitious chant against getting raped....

...So that "she should have..." talk isn't necessarily blaming the victim. It's part of that wrong-headed hope that we're too smart to be raped and if only we follow these magical laws we make up, we won't be.

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That's interesting. I've always thought (I don't remember where I got the idea) that the "we're too smart" talisman against the idea that you won't be victimized was one of the widely accepted psychological backbones of the "blame the victim" phenomenon.

I'm not really contributing anything. I just wanted to complain like the grump I am.

Alpha Echo said:

That pisses me off so much! Makes me think of our "coffee fund" at work. I see so many people brew their k-cup without paying for it, and it pisses me off. People just assume they are entitled to do whatever they want.

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What also pissed me off are coworkers who won't pitch in to buy someone a birthday cake for an office party because they don't like that person but still feel free to eat the cake.

Perks said:

People do all sorts of minor-yet-shockingly-unkind things. When I was hugely pregnant, I was returning from a business trip....

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People can be really uncaring. Last year, when my ankle was broken, I was tottering around my house, where I live alone, with a cast and crutches. I went outside to check the mail at the end of my steep-sloped driveway. The guy across the street was out in his driveway, smoking and clearly watching me. We don't especially get along, which was further reinforced when I dropped my mail and then, while trying to retrieve it, fell down in the street and lost my crutches. He dropped his cigarette and went back into the house while I was crawling to get to the nearest crutch.

...

what's really sad, though, is that I'm sure people have done things for me that were equally as caring... and yet, I can't remember them at the moment. I must be an awful, negative person.

...

Get off my lawn!

veinglory said:

The driver was most likely expressly forbidden from doing so at risk of his job.

I don't know about you but every time I catch a late night train several people beg me for fare. I am sure faretakers and drivers are not allowed to accept any excuses or delay and not to be heartless but I can see why.

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That happens to me and not always late at night. I once did give a kid fare and then ended up on the same train with him, listening to him talk on his Smart Phone about his weekend plans. I forget what they were, but they cost money.

I don't know. Sometimes I give and sometimes I don't. Once I gave a few bucks to a homeless guy I often passed. It was the dead of winter and I was wearing a lot of layers and a big coat and am built like a 12-year-old-boy, but his response was, "Nice tits."

But I also worked in a couple of inner city hospitals and every night when going to get coffee, I'd get hit up by the same people with the same stories. One night after the same guy gave me the same story for about the 500th time, I said, "If your girlfriend still has her period (he always asked for tampon money for his never-present girlfriend), take her right over there to the ER." So, yeah, I am somewhat conditioned to ignore panhandlers though I don't always. I try to compensate by supporting the various charities in my area that help the homeless, etc.

Sometimes I notice something going on in the front of the bus but mostly I'm reading and/or sort of tune it out and most people around me have headphones on. I also don't like to take out my wallet in certain situations (I don't use money on public transportation. I have a pass and since it's reduced fare if I use it for someone else, I could lose it).

heza said:

People can be really uncaring. Last year, when my ankle was broken, I was tottering around my house, where I live alone, with a cast and crutches. I went outside to check the mail at the end of my steep-sloped driveway. The guy across the street was out in his driveway, smoking and clearly watching me. We don't especially get along, which was further reinforced when I dropped my mail and then, while trying to retrieve it, fell down in the street and lost my crutches. He dropped his cigarette and went back into the house while I was crawling to get to the nearest crutch.

...

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Ugh, that is terrible. I've found the opposite. When I went from walking fine to using a cane and now a walker or wheelchair, I discovered that 99.999999% of people are ridiculously thoughtful and kind (this morning, in a cafe, I couldn't get to the only empty table using one route and was backing up to go another way when several people stood up and moved their tables! That kind of thing happens most of the time). Sometimes people are just afraid to help and get barked at by someone wanting to be independent. And a tiny percentage thinks disabled people should stay home and out of the way and wants them to know it (I forget them as soon as they're out of sight, but once in a very great while instead of letting them by like I usually do, will sometimes go very slow...). But neighbor-guy just sounds like a jerk. I'm sorry that happened to you.

Hope your ankle healed up fine!

Lyv said:

I've found the opposite. When I went from walking fine to using a cane and now a walker or wheelchair, I discovered that 99.999999% of people are ridiculously thoughtful and kind...

Hope your ankle healed up fine!

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It did--so I don't really have any reason to complain.

But what you said about people getting more considerate as you progressed to a wheelchair is intriguing. While my ankle was broken, there were some places I just couldn't manage, as I was when it first broke, one the crutches and elected to be in a wheelchair (really huge stores, for example, where just trying to get across it would have been exhausting or like the grocery store where I was very afraid of slipping on a spill).

This might (and if your experience tell me anything, must then) be my imagination, but it seemed to me that people were meaner to me when I was in the wheelchair than when I was on the crutches. In the wheelchair, people would block my path, take their time, hit me with their purses when they passed me, etc. When I was on the crutches, people were very conscious of my presence and would give me a wide berth and move things for me. I couldn't decide if I was just less visible in the chair because I wasn't eye level, if people were more horrified by the idea of knocking over a person on crutches vs. bumping a person in a chair, or if they thought I was lazy for being in a chair but pitiable for struggling on crutches. But I'm paranoid that way.

ETA: I'll stop with the derailing now.

aruna said:

But I have also seen places change over the course of the decades -- for the worse. I've seen people getting harder, more selfish, more greedy, all in the space of 20 - 30 years. I've seen one place that was once a gentle paradise turn into a money-grabbing free-for-all.
England itself, I feel has certainly changed for the worse in my lifetime.

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Not that I condone the passengers' inactivity, but this was the 3am bus in the most violent city centre in Britain. It's the sort of environment where
most people, man or woman, are just hoping to get home without incident, and that might explain (to some extent) their not wanting to get involved.

Priene said:

Not that I condone the passengers' inactivity, but this was the 3am bus in the most violent city centre in Britain. It's the sort of environment where
most people, man or woman, are just hoping to get home without incident, and that might explain (to some extent) their not wanting to get involved.

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Wouldn't that make them less inclined to see a young woman left behind for 20p?

I mean, obviously not, because that's not what happened. It's just weird trying to imagine why no one offered up such a small amount.

Perks said:

Wouldn't that make them less inclined to see a young woman left behind for 20p?

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I don't know. It's the sort of situation where your instinct is to keep your head down. Night buses can be scary places: everyone's beered up and certain types will be out looking for a fight to end the night. They saw a kerfuffle at the front of the bus and didn't want to get involved.

I'm not saying it's right, mind.

Perks said:

Wouldn't that make them less inclined to see a young woman left behind for 20p?

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As I mentioned before, try catching the last train or bus of the night. I have given a lot of people a lot of money to make their fair. But if I did it all the time I'd be broke. People have to use their best judgement, not 'all or never'. When people use their judgement, they make mistakes--it isn't just about being evil. The driver was most likely not allowed to use his judgement without risking his job.

No, I see what you guys mean. What a terrible thing all around.

And sometimes, no good deed goes unpunished. I once took my youngest to the doctor for a strep-test. I noticed a woman and her glowingly-fevered son in the waiting room. The mother was very distressed and she kept trying to make a phonecall.

Finally, she said to her son, "I guess we'll just have to take a cab."

Everything about her tone and posture was familiar to me. We were very poor growing up. As a kid, I knew all too well what you'd have to go without at the end of the month if an unexpected expense came up. Even just a taxi ride.

I told her that if she didn't mind waiting for just a minute while we got the test, I'd drive them wherever they needed to go. They were so relieved and so gracious. In the car I found out what was wrong with the boy and about three days later I was knocked flat by the only time in my life I've ever gotten the flu.

Lol!

Originally Posted by aruna
But I have also seen places change over the course of the decades -- for the worse. I've seen people getting harder, more selfish, more greedy, all in the space of 20 - 30 years. I've seen one place that was once a gentle paradise turn into a money-grabbing free-for-all.
England itself, I feel has certainly changed for the worse in my lifetime.

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My mum and dad tell me stories of their childhoods that make me think maybe think things haven't changed all that much. We just know more now.

I just wanted to pop in and say how glad I am that nobody's been by to victim-blame - "she shouldn't have been out by herself at that time of night" or some such bullshit. And to agree with those who say the fault is 100% that of the man who chose to rape her.

Priene said:

I don't know. It's the sort of situation where your instinct is to keep your head down. Night buses can be scary places: everyone's beered up and certain types will be out looking for a fight to end the night. They saw a kerfuffle at the front of the bus and didn't want to get involved.

I'm not saying it's right, mind.

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Yeah, I think that's part of it. For every story like this, you can find one of someone getting mugged or hurt helping someone pretending to be in need or someone coming to harm because they intervened in a scuffle. I remember my aunt, I think, taking me into the city when I was a kid and as we walked through an iffy neighborhood saying, "Don't make eye contact." She wasn't fearful or trying to scare me; she was telling me something she thought would make me safer, like "Look both ways."

Late night public transport is often not fun, and the people on it might justifiably think 'I got my minimum wage shit together and made sure I had fare, why couldn't you?' But there is a point at which you have to try and help anyway, I think. Like when the person is being left in a deserted area. The most money I lost to broke commuters was the last bus out of Vancouver downtown. Such a dangerous place and so may half dressed drunk kids who spent all their money on booze. Oy. the problem was I knew the would not just have to walk home, they'd have to walk home through and infamous crime zone know for women 'disappearing'.

Priene said:

I don't know. It's the sort of situation where your instinct is to keep your head down. Night buses can be scary places: everyone's beered up and certain types will be out looking for a fight to end the night. They saw a kerfuffle at the front of the bus and didn't want to get involved.

I'm not saying it's right, mind.

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One night in Oxford, in a great part of town, I gave a scruffy sort of dude in a square a cigarette when he asked. I figured it would avoid confrontation, for one thing. As an afterthought, I gave him another for later.

OMG. Don't give two cigarettes to a meth head when he asked for one. He nearly beat me up, seriously. He thought I thought he was a bum and couldn't buy cigarettes, etc. It was a terrifying rant, and I noticed that there was hardly anyone else out in the square right then and nobody close by.

I think because of the drug/alcohol problems with folks asking for things in British cities, it might be a good idea to ignore it late at night. That's awful, but many of those folks are plain dangerous. It reminds me of large cities here. Late night is not the time to get physically close to strangers or involved in any confrontation if you can help it, imho.

I can't think of any reason the driver couldn't have let her on for want of 20p. UK buses don't have those coin boxes like US buses do - the driver has a little cash till in his compartment. He tells you the fare for your destination, you pass him the cash through the slot, he passes you your change if there is any and he prints a ticket.

I've had drivers let me on without paying at all when I've been caught short a few pence under similar circumstances - I presume there is a system that counts tickets printed and compares it to money in the till to make sure the numbers match, but if you just don't print a ticket like they've done for me, there's no problem. It's not something to do regularly, in case a conductor happens to turn up, but at 3am there's not going to be anything to worry about.

According to what I've read, she offered to go to the ATM just across the road -- would have taken less than a minute. And I seem to remember reading somewhere (searched, but couldn't find it) that drivers can make some arrangement for the passenger to pay later -- damn it, I know I read that somewhere!

Yes, it's easy (and not fair) to pass judgement in retrospect and not knowing the full story or the people involved but dammit, sometimes I really despair...

According to what I've read, she offered to go to the ATM just across the road -- would have taken less than a minute. And I seem to remember reading somewhere (searched, but couldn't find it) that drivers can make some arrangement for the passenger to pay later -- damn it, I know I read that somewhere!

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A driver on a bus route I take regularly once let me on, on the promise that I pay the fare tomorrow. It does happen. Would that it had happened in this case.

The company in question doesn't have a zero-tolerance policy on late night fares, the driver was disciplined for not following company policy.

That's terrible.

Alpha Echo said:

I agree. And there's the whole Pay It Forward thing. Because it's so true that when someone does something for you, you're more inclined to reach out and do something for someone else.

And it restores the human soul and faith in humanity.

The latter of which often needs restoration, unfortunately.

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It's tough. There's the old saying (paraphrased) that all it takes for evil to win is for good folk to do nothing. There's a lot of truth to that.

It's like "good" is at the top of a hill, evil at the bottom. And there's some kind of gravity or inertia to it. If we do nothing, we slide lower. We have to make an effort to be good.

So it seems to me.

I spent some time working in downtown Chicago once. Day One, I gave small change to three of the beggars. One of the three insulted me the next day when I didn't give again. By the end of the week, I was deliberately ignoring them.

At the same time, I saw a couple staring at track signs in Union Station. Turns out they were deaf, and unsure. I was at least able to assure them that, based on a written note they were carrying, they were in the right station. They moved on, but part of me felt guilty for not walking them all the way to the right track (I had the time).

I think, by far, most of us want to do the right thing. But it's SOO easy to let the ones who take advantage of that make us skeptical, even cynical.

lorna_w said:

So that "she should have..." talk isn't necessarily blaming the victim. It's part of that wrong-headed hope that we're too smart to be raped and if only we follow these magical laws we make up, we won't be.

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I think you're right about this.

First of all, people want to believe this stuff won't happen to them, so they want to believe they're smart enough to avoid it, or that it only happens in certain avoidable circumstances.

On the other hand, I think society can have this idea that rape is something that just "happens" to women. So people, especially women themselves, are expected to always anticipate it. So by that reasoning, I can see some people thinking that the bus driver and passengers should have known she'd be raped.

Might also be worth noting that there tend to be very, very few sober people on the 3am bus. So it might have been more of an issue of people not really paying attention than being callous. But again, 100% the RAPIST's fault.

Slamhamster said:

The company in question doesn't have a zero-tolerance policy on late night fares, the driver was disciplined for not following company policy.

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Well, that settles what I was about to say. I was going to comment on the remarks about how the driver might have gotten fired for letting the girl ride for free, and I was going to weigh his job against her life, and his paycheck against his humanity, and wonder rhetorically which decision he should have made.

Turns out his bosses beat me to it.

I think most bus services have a system for paying fares owed, though they don't advertise them and they are applied at driver discretion. I know Boston's bus service has such a system and I've heard many people in other cities say the same. It's an honor-system arrangement.

I've seen bus drivers leave people stranded in bad situations, but far, far more often I've seen drivers help people out. I've been given free rides by out-of-service buses because it was 1am and snowing and the next (last) bus that I was waiting for was late, and the driver didn't want to leave people out in a storm in the middle of the night. Once I got a ride on an out-of-service bus that had already picked up six other people it technically shouldn't have but did because of the weather interrupting other service. I've seen bus drivers use their own judgment on whether to hold up at a stop to help a passenger make a connection, and I've seen bus services in which that was the standard procedure and drivers would radio each other to advise of a passenger in need of a connection, for whom the other driver would wait (Vermont).

Not every company is blindly obsessed with building fortunes out of every nickel and dime and human beings be damned. I mean, hell, most American urban transit systems run free on New Year's Eve. They don't do that for a profit.