WARNING: fanfiction.net reportedly purging all "explicit" fics

heza said:

I don't think that's the belief at all. Even with the rating and filtering system, there is nothing in place to prevent underage readers from viewing explicit content on the site. It's like leaving free beer on the sidewalk outside your convenience store and not carding anyone who snags a case. It's a liability for the site, and they're addressing it by removing the MA fic.

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If it's concern over liability then I can understand why they're doing it, but honestly, I have no idea what the current laws are regarding explicit content on the internet. Can any website with ANY kind of explicit content be sued unless they have one of those "you must be 18 to enter" pages?

The Otter said:

If it's concern over liability then I can understand why they're doing it, but honestly, I have no idea what the current laws are regarding explicit content on the internet. Can any website with ANY kind of explicit content be sued unless they have one of those "you must be 18 to enter" pages?

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I am uncertain. However, in our litigious society, anyone can sue anyone else for any reason at all, and no matter what the law specifically says or the actual likelihood of FFN getting sued for content, I don't blame them a bit for wanting to hedge their bets.

ETA: and if what shadowwalker says is true, hosting explicit content does not help promote the "family friendly" image they're looking for.

The Otter said:

If it's concern over liability then I can understand why they're doing it, but honestly, I have no idea what the current laws are regarding explicit content on the internet. Can any website with ANY kind of explicit content be sued unless they have one of those "you must be 18 to enter" pages?

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I don't know. I was under the impression that AW had an erotica password for a reason though.

heza said:

I am uncertain. However, in our litigious society, anyone can sue anyone else for any reason at all, and no matter what the law specifically says or the actual likelihood of FFN getting sued for content, I don't blame them a bit for wanting to hedge their bets.

ETA: and if what shadowwalker says is true, hosting explicit content does not help promote the "family friendly" image they're looking for.

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I don't think wanting a family friendly image is really the motive, simply because ff.net didn't start out that way. In the beginning, anyone could post anything regardless of content, and that freedom was what a lot of people liked about it. At no point was there anything on or in the website to suggest that it was "family" oriented. And then at some point, they changed the rules because they were apparently receiving persistent complaints, despite the fact that most everyone seemed content with the site as it was.

I think that's why so many people are annoyed. If ff.net had promoted themselves as being family oriented from the beginning, I really doubt this would be an issue. But by the time they changed their rules, the site had already become huge, well-established, and well known for its open system. And because of that, people simply continued to use it in the way they'd always used it, since the rules were not enforced anyway. And now that they ARE being enforced, I suspect that will alienate many of the people who still use the site. Already I'm seeing many people migrate to AO3, even those with stories that don't violate the rules, simply because they don't like what ff.net is becoming.

The Otter said:

...And now that they ARE being enforced, I suspect that will alienate many of the people who still use the site. Already I'm seeing many people migrate to AO3, even those with stories that don't violate the rules, simply because they don't like what ff.net is becoming.

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Oh, I'm certain they'll alienate readers and writers, alike. I don't think we can necessarily speculate on what the reasons are for their sudden interest in rule enforcement, though (I still think they're cleaning house because they're gearing up for something), and it really doesn't matter. We can bitch and moan all we want about the enforcement, but when it comes down to it, it's their site. If we don't like the way they run it, we can take our ball and go home. And people are. That doesn't seem to bother FFN.

I'm wondering if, in the beginning, they weren't prepared for the level of MA they were going to get. I've seen some things (unnatural things) that I was way uncomfortable reading, and the "M" rating in no way prepared me for what I was getting into. I was also surprised by my recent discovery of how many 12-year-old girls are reading my fic. I had assumed my audience was mostly adult, and this information does make me a bit more wary of what and where I'm posting.

ETA: I also think it's fair for sites (and people for that matter) to try to reinvent themselves if they're not happy with what they started out as or seemed to morph into at some point along the way.

heza said:

Oh, I'm certain they'll alienate readers and writers, alike. I don't think we can necessarily speculate on what the reasons are for their sudden interest in rule enforcement, though (I still think they're cleaning house because they're gearing up for something), and it really doesn't matter. We can bitch and moan all we want about the enforcement, but when it comes down to it, it's their site. If we don't like the way they run it, we can take our ball and go home. And people are. That doesn't seem to bother FFN.

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But ultimately, their site is made up of writers and readers. If they don't have writers and readers, there's no site. And they're supported by ads, so we are customers, of a sort, and IMO, it's the right of customers to complain if they don't like the way a company is doing things. It's the same deal with any company. If Jiff changes the ingredients for their peanut butter and the new formula tastes disgusting, people can either stop buying their products and say nothing at all, or they can write reviews complaining about the taste. Jiff may not change the formula back, either way, but at least in the latter case they know exactly why their sales are dropping.

heza said:

I'm wondering if, in the beginning, they weren't prepared for the level of MA they were going to get. I've seen some things (unnatural things) that I was way uncomfortable reading, and the "M" rating in no way prepared me for what I was getting into. I was also surprised by my recent discovery of how many 12-year-old girls are reading my fic. I had assumed my audience was mostly adult, and this information does make me a bit more wary of what and where I'm posting.

ETA: I also think it's fair for sites (and people for that matter) to try to reinvent themselves if they're not happy with what they started out as or seemed to morph into at some point along the way.

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It's perfectly fair. It's also perfectly fair for people to complain if they don't like it. And I still think that if enough people express discontent, it's conceivable that ff.net will change things around again and find some way to please everyone. Or at least most people.

As for 12-year-olds reading erotic fanfic...well, I can understand the discomfort there, and if I knew people that young were reading mine I'd likely be uncomfortable too. Then again, I was reading some fairly adult stuff when I was...well, maybe not THAT young, but I wasn't that much older.

The Otter said:

But ultimately, their site is made up of writers and readers. If they don't have writers and readers, there's no site.

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Maybe so. My guess is that the exodus over this issue will be a drop in the bucket, though, and they won't really feel the pinch enough to care.

And they're supported by ads, so we are customers, of a sort, and IMO, it's the right of customers to complain if they don't like the way a company is doing things.

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I'm not sure how to think of free ad-powered sites in this sense. If we were paying subscriptions to read at FFN, then I would say our opinions would matter a lot more. (And I'm speaking more as a writer than a reader, so my priorities might be different.) Readers are their customers. They read, they view ads, FFN gets paid. But since it's the ad paying the way, maybe their advertisers are their real customers. Writers are just their free labor. We produce the content that brings viewers to the site.

It's the same deal with any company. If Jiff changes the ingredients for their peanut butter and the new formula tastes disgusting, people can either stop buying their products and say nothing at all, or they can write reviews complaining about the taste. Jiff may not change the formula back, either way, but at least in the latter case they know exactly why their sales are dropping.

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I'm cynical. I'm pretty sure they'll know what happened if the numbers decline, and I'm pretty sure they won't care. It all depends on who they're most interested in pleasing: Advertisers? Families? Erotica writers? Hard to say without understanding their endgame.

And I still think that if enough people express discontent, it's conceivable that ff.net will change things around again and find some way to please everyone. Or at least most people.

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Where are you expressing your discontent, though? Have you joined the forums on FFN, added petitions to your fic, or written a strongly worded letter to Support?

As for 12-year-olds reading erotic fanfic...well, I can understand the discomfort there, and if I knew people that young were reading mine I'd likely be uncomfortable too.

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Oh, the one I'm talking about isn't erotica. There's nothing in it, atm, that wouldn't fall under the T rating. I was going to add something M, later. The unnerving part is that I also started giving updates about the fic on an LJ community, and (because I don't think) I was suprised when a bunch of readers friended my personal account on LJ... which is where I DO post my erotica. So... whatever. At least LJ has that adult content warning screen. But I didn't necessarily want a bunch of kiddos filing over there.

heza said:

Where are you expressing your discontent, though? Have you joined the forums on FFN, added petitions to your fic, or written a strongly worded letter to Support?

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I wasn't necessarily talking about myself. At this point I don't have enough personal stakes in it to want to get involved. I'm just saying that if people DO want to express their discontent in whatever way, I see that as valid.

It may or may not make any difference to the site owners. Ff.net is so huge, it will probably remain pretty active regardless. But I assume they would care if large numbers of people left their site. If writers leave their site, then they have fewer readers, and if they have fewer readers they have fewer hits on their ads and fewer dollars (I assume the amount of money they get is somehow traffic-based). And the most popular fics do tend to be the ones that are pairing-focused and have sex in them, even if the stories aren't completely sex-focused. At least in the categories where I roam, it's much harder to get readers interested in more general-audience fics.

So yeah, I do think in the long run it will make a difference to them in terms of traffic and overall interest in their site. Time will tell, I guess.

The Otter said:

I wasn't necessarily talking about myself. At this point I don't have enough personal stakes in it to want to get involved. I'm just saying that if people DO want to express their discontent in whatever way, I see that as valid.

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I wasn't trying to point you out, specifcally, more just a comment about how I'm not even sure what the effective venues for expressing discontent are. I don't know if they pay any attention to the forums at all, and most of the new ones have been anti-Critics Union, rather than anti-rule enforcement, anyway. Writers have been adding petitions against the rules, but the watch-dog groups just turn around and report them as non-stories and get them deleted.

So all this hoopla is because ff.net is enforcing the rules against explicit, graphic sex? What is your beef, again?

That depends on who you're talking to, I suppose.

I was in the process of moving all of my stuff over to Archive of our own but never got around to it, this is just reason for me to speed up my process. I don't write much fan fic anymore but I did have a few pieces with sex and some that could be considered erotica, or more erotic than FF.net would want. I remember when the site was free and everything flew on there and I think they're biggest mistake was caving in on that. Not because it's something hard to find there now, but because the site promotes this freedom of expression but shuts out a whole side of things (this is kind of how I feel about some of the rules Deviant Art enacted later).

Are they removing for gore, or just sexual content?

They're removing any fics that violate any of the posting guidelines. I don't know what methods FF itself is using to find fics, but there are several watchdog groups that have tasked themselves with reporting fics that violate the guidelines, as well. What appears to be the most active group, Critics United, is (as far as I'm aware) mostly reporting fics with formatting violations (chat fics, real-person fics, non-story chapters, etc.).

I've seen a couple of fics with sexual content on their reporting list, but I haven't actually seen any reported solely for violence or gore. However, graphic violence is still beyond the allowable FF rating guidelines, so fics of that nature are also vulnerable.

DancingMaenid said:

You do need an invitation, but I guess I don't see that as a huge drawback. I've seen a few complaints about people not getting theirs, but I think invitations are usually pretty forthcoming once you request one.

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I requested one two months ago, at which time the system told me I could expect to receive one in March of 2013. I see this as a huge drawback to using the site, as compared to fanfic.net, which takes about two days to begin posting.

skylarburris said:

I requested one two months ago, at which time the system told me I could expect to receive one in March of 2013. I see this as a huge drawback to using the site, as compared to fanfic.net, which takes about two days to begin posting.

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2013? What's the consideration there? Are they limiting the traffic on purpose?

skylarburris said:

I requested one two months ago, at which time the system told me I could expect to receive one in March of 2013. I see this as a huge drawback to using the site, as compared to fanfic.net, which takes about two days to begin posting.

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Yeah, it seems to have gotten really bad. I didn't realize that until pretty recently. I requested an account shortly after the site opened, and I think the estimate they gave me was about a month (and at the time, that made more sense to me since the site had just opened). I'm pretty sure I got the invite code within that time.

I didn't realize the wait had gotten so extreme until I came across some people talking about it. The last I heard, as of a few days ago, is that new prospective members are being told they'll get a code in November. I don't know if that's accurate, but if it is, maybe it's improved a little since you tried. Not much, obviously.

I think the main problem is server load. I don't think they're intentionally keeping membership low on principle. I think it's purely technical. Recently, there were a lot of problems with error pages coming up, and recently they've drastically reduced the search options (which really annoys me since the search capabilities were what really differentiated the site from ff.net for me. But in theory, I think it's supposed to be temporary).

It's a shame, because the site is a really good idea and it worked great when it was smaller. But I think the people running it may have bitten off more than they can chew.

DancingMaenid said:

I didn't realize the wait had gotten so extreme until I came across some people talking about it. The last I heard, as of a few days ago, is that new prospective members are being told they'll get a code in November. I don't know if that's accurate, but if it is, maybe it's improved a little since you tried. Not much, obviously.

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I just asked for an invite. It gave me an estimated date of November 5, 2012 and said there were 31180 people on the waiting list.

I am a member of Archive of Our Own because I have a few fun stories I want to preserve on a website that's not FF.net. I was able to receive an invitation from another member. However it seems they aren't giving out any more invites.

I guess I was lucky.