NYC considers a ban on large sodas

Perks · May 31, 2012

“Obesity is a nationwide problem, and all over the United States, public health officials are wringing their hands saying, ‘Oh, this is terrible.’ New York City is not about wringing your hands; it’s about doing something. I think that’s what the public wants the mayor to do,” Bloomberg told The New York Times.

His proposal would ban any the sale of any sugary beverage over 16 ounces in any of the city's restaurants, delis, movie theaters or even street carts, according to reports from New York.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/05/31/new-york-mayor-wants-big-sugary-drinks-banned/?hpt=hp_t2

So, what do we think? I think a 32oz Pepsi is stupid. I just do. I don't understand why anyone would drink that.

I don't love the idea of it being a law, though.

regdog · May 31, 2012

Because we all know people can't buy 2 sodas instead of one big one.

Seriously, the government needs to step back and concern itself with issues other than people gorging on soda or fried foods.

Prozyan · May 31, 2012

I'm glad we have officials like Bloomberg who are committed to saving me from myself.

raburrell · May 31, 2012

Honestly, I'm okay with it. Those 32 oz sodas cost us all a shitton of money once translated to diabetes and other costs.

Celia Cyanide · May 31, 2012

Perks said:
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/05/31/new-york-mayor-wants-big-sugary-drinks-banned/?hpt=hp_t2

So, what do we think? I think a 32oz Pepsi is stupid. I just do. I don't understand why anyone would drink that.

I don't love the idea of it being a law, though.

Large pops bug me more when they come out of those fountains, and not out of cans and bottles. They can be very watered down, and flat, and basically not what you would be getting if you bought it in the store. And not worth the money.

I don't love the idea of it being a law, either. But I admit that I feel differently about laws regulating restaurants vs. stores. When a customer goes to a restaurant, they don't have as much information about what is in the food, and not as much choice about what they buy.

I would actually feel better about a law requiring restaurants to have drink options that do not contain high fructose corn syrup or any artificial sugars.

backslashbaby · May 31, 2012

He's an eejit in this case. Folks will buy two, yeah.

And it's such a stupid can of worms. What about fast food, or ice cream shops, or...

I do agree with legislation that forces labelling and nutrition brochures and other forms of educational kind of measures to help combat the problems.

Perks · May 31, 2012

In five responses, there are already valid, but opposing points. Reliance on human self-control is obviously a joke, but do you legislate it or just refuse to pay for obesity-related health issues? (Of course, that's rhetorical. Not gonna happen for a variety of practical and ethical reasons.)

So, what do you do?

Plot Device · May 31, 2012

Allow me to propse a slightly less bone-headed evil when comparing various evils and trying to land at the lesser of the them. I say they should treat soda like tobacco and alcohol by doing the following:

1) Heavilly tax soda (and the taxes go toward public healthcare costs).

2) Issue "soda vending licenses" to merchants and restaurants and movie theatres so that only a limited number of "soda licenses" (much like a limited number of liquor licesnes) exist within the city limits.

This two-pronged spear head (making soda more expensive AND more difficult to locate) will steer people toward other beverages (like maybe .... water).

And, as an after thought ....

3) Classify various "sport drinks," bottled teas, and bottled coffees as "soda" if they meet or exceed certain threshholds for sugar content.

Bottled juice is a grey area I am uncertain about. Juice has naturally occuring sugar in it, and studies have shown that excessive intaks of fruit juice likewise makes kids fat.

Anyway, my idea is still nanny-state bullshit, but I think my idea is LESS bullshit thanMayor Bloomberg's. Prohibition of ANY desired substance merely makes for black markets full of defective and even dangerous product. So, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em, but only on your own terms.

regdog · May 31, 2012

I don't know if it would work but perhaps during prenatal doctor visits have a couple of those visits dedicated to both parents meeting with a nutritionist. There are a lot of people who honestly don't know proper nutrition.

Another thing that can help is changing food labeling. The labels are in metric quantities. Most Americans don't know the metric system and have no clue about the actual amount of sugar, etc in what they're eating and drinking.

regdog · May 31, 2012

Plot Device said:
Allow me to propse a slightly less bone-headed evil when comparing various evils and trying to land at the lesser of the them. I say they should treat soda like tobacco and alcohol by doing the following:

1) Heavilly tax soda (and the taxes go toward public healthcare costs).

2) Issue "soda vending licenses" to merchants and restaurants and movie theatres so that only a limited number of "soda licenses" (much like a limited number of liquor licesnes) exist within the city limits.

This two-pronged spear head (making soda more expensive AND more difficult to locate) will steer people toward other beverages (like maybe .... water).

And, as an after thought ....

3) Classify various "sport drinks," bottled teas, and bottled coffees as "soda" if they meet or exceed certain threshholds for sugar content.

Bottled juice is a grey area I am uncertain about. Juice has naturally occuring sugar in it, and studies have shown that excessive intaks of fruit juice likewise makes kids fat.

Anyway, my idea is still nanny-state bullshit, but I think my idea is LESS bullshit than this one. Prohibition of ANY desired substance merely makes for black markets full of defective and even dangerous product. So, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em, but only on your own terms.

I doubt higher taxes will work. It hasn't with cigarette smoking.

Celia Cyanide · May 31, 2012

Plot Device said:
Anyway, my idea is still nanny-state bullshit, but I think my idea is LESS bullshit than this one.

I have to say, I think it's interesting that taxing soda would be considered nanny-state bullshit, but we are all okay with taxing alcohol and tobacco.

Plot Device said:
Prohibition of ANY desired substance merely makes for black markets full of defective and even dangerous product. So, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em, but only on your own terms.

I agree, but I have to admit that I think the idea of trading sodapop on the black market is hilarious. Like that South Park episode, when Cartman was buying black market KFC.

Plot Device · May 31, 2012

regdog said:
I doubt higher taxes will work. It hasn't with cigarette smoking.

SOME poeple have quit smoking due to the sheer cost of it. And others have abstained from even starting, once again due to the sheer cost. Meanwhile, a good chunk of the taxes collected on cigarettes pay for lung cancer research and treatment. So some good does come from those higher taxes.

Don · May 31, 2012

From twitter:

MSNBC's Mika defends NYC soda ban as a "great idea" while sipping her Venti drink from Starbucks

and here's the link to the story.

And I'll quote Heinlein again:

Thing that got me was not her list of things she hated, since she was obviously crazy as a Cyborg, but fact that always somebody agreed with her prohibitions. Must be a yearning deep in human heart to stop other people from doing as they please. Rules, laws — always for other fellow. A murky part of us, something we had before we came down out of trees, and failed to shuck when we stood up. Because not one of those people said: "Please pass this so that I won't be able to do something I know I should stop." Nyet, tovarishchee, was always something they hated to see neighbors doing. Stop them "for their own good" — not because speaker claimed to be harmed by it.

Amazing... Heinlein predicted Mika Brzezinski in 1966!

Shadow Dragon · May 31, 2012

Yeah, people will buy two instead of just one large soda. Plus, going to the places that sell these ultra large sodas is unhealthy period. You can't tell people that they can have those ultra large hamburgers with tons of unhealthy toppings but then tell them not to have the large soda.

There are better ways of getting people to eat healthier food. Have the city invest in stores that sell cheap, healthy food or restaurants that have healthier menus. Improve the school food and make PE a bigger priority so kids don't become obese adults. But no, ban large sodas, that'll do the trick.

Roger J Carlson · May 31, 2012

I guess we'd have to outlaw "free refills" then too, wouldn't we?

Perks · May 31, 2012

Shadow Dragon said:
There are better ways of getting people to eat healthier food. Have the city invest in stores that sell cheap, healthy food or restaurants that have healthier menus. Improve the school food and make PE a bigger priority so kids don't become obese adults. But no, ban large sodas, that'll do the trick.

So legislate the first two things, but not the third?

Celia Cyanide · May 31, 2012

I don't get it. What was in her venti drink that is comparable to sodapop? Maybe I'm missing something.

Roger J Carlson · May 31, 2012

raburrell said:
Honestly, I'm okay with it. Those 32 oz sodas cost us all a shitton of money once translated to diabetes and other costs.

Maybe we should limit alcohol consumption -- or eliminate it altogether. Afterall, 75,000 preventable deaths are attributed to excessive alcohol consumption every year. How could such a prohibition fail?

backslashbaby · May 31, 2012

If we're getting fully government-involved here, we could even subsidize healthy food. Folks will buy what's cheap.

It depends on exactly how serious we are about folks not doing things, compared to just passing laws and feeling smug about them ('smug' is for Mika

).

Shadow Dragon · May 31, 2012

Perks said:
So legislate the first two things, but not the third?

Basically, yes. The third isn't going to actually fix anything because of the fact that there are ways around it and it doesn't fix the underlying problem. The third is being done just so politicians can pat themselves on the back and claim that they helped to fight obesity.

Plot Device · May 31, 2012

Celia Cyanide said:
I agree, but I have to admit that I think the idea of trading sodapop on the black market is hilarious. Like that South Park episode, when Cartman was buying black market KFC.

I know people who buy raw milk on the black market, and also buy butter and cream made from raw milk. There is a growing network of covert raw milk drinkers out there who pay big bucks to get their hands on a steady and uninterrupted supply of raw milk, raw butter, and raw cream. And they quite literally sneak around in a cloak-and-dagger fashion, meeting "milk dealers" (sometimes the dealers are the dairy farmers themselves, and sometimes they are merely middle men) in back alleys, diners and at truck stops to score each and every purchase.

And yes, some bad and fraudulent product is sneaking its way in to this black market for white gold.

Perks · May 31, 2012

I wonder what would happen if there was a PSA campaign with, I dunno, Morgan Freeman or some such mellow-voiced authority who said, "This stuff, in the giant quantities you're taking on, will kill you. Maybe not tomorrow or next week, but if you manage not to get hit by a bus or murdered by someone on 'bath salts' you're going to feel progressively worse until your heart, liver, or pancreas gives out. There are people who love you (probably) and on a large-scale brotherhood-of-man kind of way, we love you, too, and would be sad to see you go. But it's your choice and we really don't care that much."

Then just leave it at that.

Celia Cyanide · May 31, 2012

Shadow Dragon said:
Yeah, people will buy two instead of just one large soda.

This kind of misses the point, really. I am abivalent about this law, but it's not really about stopping people from drinking as much soda as they really do want to drink. It's about portion control. In our culture, we are taught that it's bad, even offensive to waste food or drink. As a result, we get full, but keep eating and drinking simply because there is more.

Large sodas, and even "supersize" meals are really about selling people more than they really want. They think they want it when they buy it because they're hungry.

backslashbaby · May 31, 2012

Celia Cyanide said:
I don't get it. What was in her venti drink that is comparable to sodapop? Maybe I'm missing something.

The amount of fat in whole milk is very high, and folks get them with whipped cream and those Italian syrups. A venti can be a very bad choice, depending on how you order it.

Plot Device · May 31, 2012

Roger J Carlson said:
I guess we'd have to outlaw "free refills" then too, wouldn't we?

It will be illegal for a layman to operate a soda dispensing machine -- just like New Jersey won't let laymen operate a gas station's gas pump. (No "self-service" stations exist in New Jersey, they are all full-serve.)

NYC considers a ban on large sodas

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