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Shakesbear

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My wip is set c1810 in rural Norfolk, England. I think it is a hybrid - historic crime. It is about a woman who wants to own the house she was born in. To be able to do this she has to kill everyone who stands in her way - parents and siblings. Given some of the methods she uses to kill her family off she gets way with all her murders. Not going to tell you if she gets the house though.

I have researched all sorts of things - herbs and herbal remedies, floor plans for farmhouses from the period, still rooms and their uses. I even ended up creating an artefact see here: http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244473 I also have to find out how big farms were - acreage and buildings.

I will also re-read some Austen to get the feel of the period and social nuances.
 

Literateparakeet

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I think I'd say I try to be honest in my crits and comments; I don't think telling someone a post is wonderful when it isn't is helpful.

This makes me wince a bit (no offense Puma), but the assumption here seems to be (and not only from Puma) that people give a postive crit because they are being nice. I have given crits that say "I loved this." Not because I was trying to spare anyones feelings, because I agree that is not helpful and not what we are here for.

If I post that I loved something, it's because I did. If other people disagree...there are two main possibilities...either I don't have enough skill yet to see what the other critter sees (thus the wince) or the difference is just subjective. I often fear the former. But we encourage everyone to spend time in SYW and offer crits, so we are going to get critters with different skill levels.

Ack...I keep writing and rewriting this post. What I really want to say is don't assume critters are just being nice (cause maybe we're just at a different skill level). Just post your crit and perhaps people like me will learn from it. I know I have learned a lot both from giving crits and from reading what other other critters have said on a piece I have critted.

LP - who does not have a degree in anything but whose motto is "never stop learning". You have to admit a bird that can read AND play chess is pretty impressive.
 

Puma

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I understand what you're saying LP. And there are differences in whether we're critting as a reader or as a writer. (There are a couple threads somewhere on AW on that topic.) As a reader I may love something, but as a writer I may see that there are problems. I don't often say I love something, but, I do try to extend encouragement in the form of "keep working on this" (which I wouldn't say if I didn't think there was some potential.)

And, it's very rare to see anything here (or even in print) that couldn't stand some polish and fine tuning - including my own posts. Puma
 

Literateparakeet

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I understand what you're saying LP. And there are differences in whether we're critting as a reader or as a writer.

That's not what I meant actually. Well, my point is that maybe when I say I love something (because I do) it's not because I'm reading as a reader...I worry that it's because "I'm not smart." Like Forrest Gump (you've seen it right?) Maybe I am just not a skilled enough writer to see the things that someone else sees.

While both sting a bit, I would rather be an unskilled critter than an easy grader. :)

Does that help clarify better?

ETA: Oh wait! I get your point now...even if I like something, I can still offer suggestions on how it could be improved. Ahhh, yes. I try to do that. I feel better. :)
 
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Puma

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You're doing just fine, LP.

The problem is, some writers (mostly inexperienced) take a comment of "I love this" as carte blanche evidence there's nothing more that needs to be done. Some of them will ignore suggestions on how to improve because half of the crits they received were "I love it." And then down the road they don't understand what went wrong when their baby is languishing on the shelf.

So, for the most part I try not to go too far towards either extreme in my comments, because it can throw a writer off. When I don't like something I'm more inclined to say "not my cup of tea" and when I like something I'm more inclined to say "like your idea" or "good topic".

Part of this also can have to do with how well you know the poster. I could tell pdr she missed the boat and she wouldn't take offense, but a newcomer might even report me to the mods if I didn't express the problem in a delicate way.

It's all a big learning experience, and, as I said, you're doing just fine. Puma
 

Skibone21

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Hi, I'm a newbie, but I've been querying my novel set in the golden age of Hollywood from 1941-1945. It's about two actresses and their struggles against the studio system that eventually lead them to fall in love with each other. Needless to say finding an agent for such a story is difficult (coupled with my horrible query letter) with the lesbian element to it, but I received a partial request last week from a small publisher so we'll see how that goes.

Watching classic movies has been a hobby of mine since I saw Hedy Lamarr in Samson in Delilah. The era itself is full of hypocrisy and the private lives of the performers weren't always as glamorous as they were portrayed, so I thought it'd be fun to write about.

I enjoy other periods of History such as the Julio-Claudian dynasty, the time of Alexander the Great etc.

Akilli
 

Tom from UK

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I've been querying my novel set in the golden age of Hollywood from 1941-1945. It's about two actresses and their struggles against the studio system that eventually lead them to fall in love with each other. Needless to say finding an agent for such a story is difficult (coupled with my horrible query letter) with the lesbian element to it, but I received a partial request last week from a small publisher so we'll see how that goes.
I had a similar experience. 'The White Rajah' was actually agented but publishers said it was "too difficult" for a first novel. I got a definite impression that the homosexual love story in it wasn't helping. So I went to JMS Books, who do a lot of GLBT stuff.

I have no experience of other fiction publishers, but compared to Gower (who published a non-fiction work of mine) they seemed fine. They line edited the book, paid for a gorgeous cover, got a lovely print edition and sell it electronically too. Distribution is not good and sales will never be that high, but I think they did a good job. They are a regular publisher, charging nothing upfront. You get 50% of net.

If you are rejected on your partial, it may be worth having a look at them.
 

pdr

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I know...

puma said it so well, Literateparakeet but I'll add that frankly it's not our opinion which counts.

When critting we can pick up on writerly things but our opinions as to how good or otherwise a piece is are worthless. It is the agents and publishers' editors whose opinions count not ours.

Someone critting here and saying how good or bad a piece is in their opinion, is not being at all helpful. I know you are often critting in Literary. Just have a look at the pieces which have been critted with 'I love it it's marvellous'. You can see that the writers, especially if they are newbies, bask in the praise and don't take on board any of the useful comments. They often don't go on and edit and rewrite. The trick is to be positive and constructive.
 

angeliz2k

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puma said it so well, Literateparakeet but I'll add that frankly it's not our opinion which counts.

When critting we can pick up on writerly things but our opinions as to how good or otherwise a piece is are worthless. It is the agents and publishers' editors whose opinions count not ours.

Someone critting here and saying how good or bad a piece is in their opinion, is not being at all helpful. I know you are often critting in Literary. Just have a look at the pieces which have been critted with 'I love it it's marvellous'. You can see that the writers, especially if they are newbies, bask in the praise and don't take on board any of the useful comments. They often don't go on and edit and rewrite. The trick is to be positive and constructive.

I know the point you were going for, but your input (and others' input) is certainly does count. The agents and publishers are the gatekeepers, which is why we have to be prepared when we take our queries and grovel at their feet.

That said, there is a balance. When I crit, I like to throw in a comment when I like something so that it tempers the many small things I nitpick. Also, tone is everything. You don't want to be rude or dismissive. Maybe I'm too nice, but I try to couch everything as helpfully as possible without passing judgment. Often, this means putting comments in the form of a question.

I'm not saying you or anyone else here is too harsh; I'm making the point in general because I feel like it needs to be added to the discussion.
 

Skibone21

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I had a similar experience. 'The White Rajah' was actually agented but publishers said it was "too difficult" for a first novel. I got a definite impression that the homosexual love story in it wasn't helping. So I went to JMS Books, who do a lot of GLBT stuff.

I have no experience of other fiction publishers, but compared to Gower (who published a non-fiction work of mine) they seemed fine. They line edited the book, paid for a gorgeous cover, got a lovely print edition and sell it electronically too. Distribution is not good and sales will never be that high, but I think they did a good job. They are a regular publisher, charging nothing upfront. You get 50% of net.

If you are rejected on your partial, it may be worth having a look at them.

Thanks I'll definitely check them out. I didn't know that the homosexual love thing was such a frowned upon plot element with the general agent. Since they're looking for the best sell to a big publisher then I can understand why they'd pass when the word "lesbian" was in the query.
 

MaryMumsy

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Hi, I'm a newbie, but I've been querying my novel set in the golden age of Hollywood from 1941-1945. It's about two actresses and their struggles against the studio system that eventually lead them to fall in love with each other. Needless to say finding an agent for such a story is difficult (coupled with my horrible query letter) with the lesbian element to it, but I received a partial request last week from a small publisher so we'll see how that goes.

Watching classic movies has been a hobby of mine since I saw Hedy Lamarr in Samson in Delilah. The era itself is full of hypocrisy and the private lives of the performers weren't always as glamorous as they were portrayed, so I thought it'd be fun to write about. Akilli

One of Stuart Woods' books from few years ago has a similar situation as a secondary story line. However, he's a big name, and it is a secondary line, not the main one. I don't recall which one it is off hand, but I know I own it and can look if you want.

MM
 

Skibone21

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One of Stuart Woods' books from few years ago has a similar situation as a secondary story line. However, he's a big name, and it is a secondary line, not the main one. I don't recall which one it is off hand, but I know I own it and can look if you want.

MM

Thanks that'd be great if it doesn't take too much trouble. Well I won't say it's a secondary story line but their sexual relationship isn't the main focus until probably the second half of the book even though it's sprinkled throughout. But I do see what you're saying which is why I'm trying the smaller publishers now.

I don't know if you guys know Martin Turnbull but he queried for like a year about his book set in the decade before involving some of Hollywood's historic places and he didn't seem to get any love either. Maybe they just like to watch the movies and now read about them :)
 

Tom from UK

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You can never know why a book gets rejected. I thought the clue for mine was the suggestion that I write something else and then resubmit this as a novel from a previously published author. They specifically said it was too "difficult" for afirst novel, but there was no suggestion I should change my style. (One publisher said it reminded them of William Golding and I glowed for a week.) So it was presumably some specific element of the situation in this novel. It was downbeat and it had a gay hero. My suspicion is that the problem was a bit of both.

But who knows? The agent who tried with 'The White Rajah' refused to consider my WIP (another historical) because it's set in Argentina and "people don't want to read about South America". I'm hoping it's just him.
 

Literateparakeet

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Just have a look at the pieces which have been critted with 'I love it it's marvellous'. You can see that the writers, especially if they are newbies, bask in the praise and don't take on board any of the useful comments. They often don't go on and edit and rewrite. The trick is to be positive and constructive.

Yes that makes sense. I have to say there was a "batch" of posts in Literary that got a lot of "I love it" responses, but I didn't love those. I just scratched my head and wondered what I was missing.

I like what you said about being "positive and constructive". I think that is the key.

Angel, I try not to be too harsh also. When I can, I like to share "what worked" along with what didn't work. Tone is so easily mistinterpreted in written communication. Sigh...

Welcome Akilli and Donroc!
 

ishtar'sgate

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This year has been pretty much of a bust for me so far. My wip is set in ancient Babylon and I've still got a l-o-o-o-ng way to go to complete it. Drives me crazy that I don't seem to find time for it. My husband's business recently grew something awful and as I'm the administrator (fancy word for taking care of all the bills and payroll and general dog's body stuff) I've been run off my feet. To top it all off I had a couple of agonizing gall bladder attacks and finally had the wretched thing taken out a couple of weeks ago. I feel lousy and am on meds that make me fuzzy in the head, so no writing for me until I'm off all that garbage.
O-o-o do I feel sorry for myself.:D
 

MaryMumsy

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Thanks that'd be great if it doesn't take too much trouble. Well I won't say it's a secondary story line but their sexual relationship isn't the main focus until probably the second half of the book even though it's sprinkled throughout. But I do see what you're saying which is why I'm trying the smaller publishers now.


The book is 'Beverly Hills Dead'. In looking at it again, to make sure it was the right one, it is a little later than your time frame. The main story line is about the 'Red Scare' and the Hollywood black list.

MM
 

Siri Kirpal

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This year has been pretty much of a bust for me so far. My wip is set in ancient Babylon and I've still got a l-o-o-o-ng way to go to complete it. Drives me crazy that I don't seem to find time for it. My husband's business recently grew something awful and as I'm the administrator (fancy word for taking care of all the bills and payroll and general dog's body stuff) I've been run off my feet. To top it all off I had a couple of agonizing gall bladder attacks and finally had the wretched thing taken out a couple of weeks ago. I feel lousy and am on meds that make me fuzzy in the head, so no writing for me until I'm off all that garbage.
O-o-o do I feel sorry for myself.:D

Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

Prayers sent for your health.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 

Skibone21

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The book is 'Beverly Hills Dead'. In looking at it again, to make sure it was the right one, it is a little later than your time frame. The main story line is about the 'Red Scare' and the Hollywood black list.

MM

Thanks I'll look into it!
 

Tocotin

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'The White Rajah' was actually agented but publishers said it was "too difficult" for a first novel. I got a definite impression that the homosexual love story in it wasn't helping. So I went to JMS Books, who do a lot of GLBT stuff.

I'm going to check out your book Tom, I love historicals with GLBT themes.

Now I've been mostly lurking around AW, but I feel I belong here. History has always fascinated me. Love reading about it, love writing about it. Basically any period/place before WWII will do.

I have a finished novella set in Middle Ages in Germany, which is a tough piece of merchandise and probably won't get sold/published any time soon. I also have an old story, historical and sort of theological, which takes place in the 17th century Italy; I started it when I joined AW, it's on the back burner now, but I'm going to return to it.

This is the third year I've been writing a picaresque novel about the late 19th century Japan. I thought the research would be pretty easy, but oh boy was I deluding myself... Anyway, I want to finish it this year or the next.
 

Deb Kinnard

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What I'm working on now: an emigrant crosses the Atlantic in 1905 in the steerage, and stumbles upon true love in the process. Also the third book in the Faith Box, set in 1485 just as Henry VII takes over from Richard III.

As far as the "I loved it!" theme, I think there's another angle on this. Sometimes if I'm judging a contest or otherwise seeing snippets, something about the piece grabs me emotionally, way deep, in a place I didn't think was accessible at all. Then I love the snippet, whether it's written to a high level of craft or is the work of a newbie. Then I'll say "I loved it!" and suggest the ways I see to improve it still more.

We write partially to connect with readers at an emotional level. If a piece does this for a picky reader like me, sure, I'll say I loved it.
 

Literateparakeet

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Just gotta say I'm enjoying this thread.

Here's what I'm up to today...last night (I work graveyard) I was reading my WIP. I had printed it (that really helps with editing). I was reading it out loud, and my critical editor had quite a lot to say about it.

The voice of my narrator was not consistent. My dialogue was flat, etc. I let myself have a pity party about what a terrible writer I am, for about 15 min. Then, I set to work fixing the issues. I think it's better now. Thank goodness there's no limit on edits.

Next... :)