Another Weasel Apology

rugcat

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http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=51455

The source site is, of course, not credible. But the story is in Obama's book. I heard that portion from the audio version of the book.
Oh, I don't know. Just because when I clicked on the link I got a pop up inviting me to sign up for Ann Coulter's newsletter doesn't mean anything.

So a self reported anecdote about how, at age ten, he pushed a girl away when being teased about her being a girlfriend would be bullying? And shows an insight into his character? I'm asking about what the reaction would be reaction to an actual bullying incident, not some nonsense picked up by right wing crazies.
'Course, it's not on the same level as what Romney is accused of doing. But then, neither incident comes close to what ol' Ted Kennedy was accused of, or what Bill Clinton was accused of (rape). The latter two managed to survive politically. More or less.
Oh, I don't think it will affect him much, if at all. But I liked LAgrunions point -- that had this been a story about Obama, many people would have been surprised and disturbed.

With Romney it's a shrug, and no surprise at all.
 

Monkey

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I have a friend named Scott Colvin. He's gay. I didn't know it in high school. I think he didn't know it then, either. I bullied him, although never physically. He had an effeminate way about him, and was just awful in the choir, having trouble keeping his notes from falling flat.

We've reconnected via facebook, and when we did, I saw he had a husband, and they look amazingly happy. Since life has dealt me the hand it has, I was, of course, overjoyed to find he'd found love, and I told him so, and apologized for the way I'd treated him in the 80s. It's water under the bridge.

You've just illustrated the difference between yourself and Romney.

You remembered that you'd bullied this guy, but you'd grown up and changed. You apologized to him, and when you did, it was an actual apology. And it wasn't done because you were running for president and facing cameras--you actually cared enough to be happy for the guy, and to regret your childish bullshit.

Romney didn't.

Same thing with Obama. His bullying was not nearly on the level of getting a group of guys together, pinning someone down, and cutting their hair--but he still remembered it and regretted it and isn't afraid to admit either.
 

Opty

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Obama's incident of not wanting to get cooties is in no way "bullying."

It's laughable and ridiculous for anyone to feebly try to equate the two.
 

RichardGarfinkle

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Obama's incident of not wanting to get cooties is in no way "bullying."

It's laughable and ridiculous for anyone to feebly try to equate the two.

It really is stupid to equate 10years old and 17 years old, not to mention equating a push with getting a bunch of people together to grab, hold down, and cut the hair off.

And, as others have pointed out. The big difference.

Remorse != Not remembering, making excuses, and laughing.
 

Alessandra Kelley

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http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=51455

The source site is, of course, not credible. But the story is in Obama's book. I heard that portion from the audio version of the book.

'Course, it's not on the same level as what Romney is accused of doing. But then, neither incident comes close to what ol' Ted Kennedy was accused of, or what Bill Clinton was accused of (rape). The latter two managed to survive politically. More or less.

No. It is not on the same level of what Romney did.

Obama wrote about the incident. He confessed it himself. And he was ten years old when he did it. And it was only a shove and a small meanness.

Romney, who was seventeen, laughed about the incident when someone else brought it up. He said he didn't even remember it. And it was criminal assault.
 

robeiae

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So a self reported anecdote about how, at age ten, he pushed a girl away when being teased about her being a girlfriend would be bullying? And shows an insight into his character?
I didn't say it showed any kind of insight, you know.
I'm asking about what the reaction would be reaction to an actual bullying incident, not some nonsense picked up by right wing crazies.
I thought it was an interesting thing, that tidbit. If anything, it indicates--to me--the things kids struggle with, when it comes to peer pressure and the like. And in fact, I think it's commendable that Obama related the incident.
Oh, I don't think it will affect him much, if at all. But I liked LAgrunions point -- that had this been a story about Obama, many people would have been surprised and disturbed.
True. But that's because many people think Obama is a demigod, at the very least...
With Romney it's a shrug, and no surprise at all.
Well, it's a bit of ancient history, largely unverifiable, that may or may not have occurred (if it did occur, at all) in the way it's being portrayed. His former friend--Maxwell--comes off looking like a dick, imo. He's lamenting now that he never apologized, but he had plenty of time to do so, if it really had bothered him to the extent he now claims. Sure, he's a trustworthy source...

Personally though, there many things I wish I had never done or said when I was younger...and many things I wish had never been done or said to me. I doubt that I remember every such incident, however. And I'd bet dollars to donuts that some of the things of the latter sort--done to me--are better remembered by me than by the antagonist(s). Tis human nature. So whatever did happen here, I don't find it all that unbelievable that Romney doesn't remember the incident.
 

Death Wizard

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I didn't say it showed any kind of insight, you know. I thought it was an interesting thing, that tidbit. If anything, it indicates--to me--the things kids struggle with, when it comes to peer pressure and the like. And in fact, I think it's commendable that Obama related the incident.True. But that's because many people think Obama is a demigod, at the very least...
Well, it's a bit of ancient history, largely unverifiable, that may or may not have occurred (if it did occur, at all) in the way it's being portrayed. His former friend--Maxwell--comes off looking like a dick, imo. He's lamenting now that he never apologized, but he had plenty of time to do so, if it really had bothered him to the extent he now claims. Sure, he's a trustworthy source...

Personally though, there many things I wish I had never done or said when I was younger...and many things I wish had never been done or said to me. I doubt that I remember every such incident, however. And I'd bet dollars to donuts that some of the things of the latter sort--done to me--are better remembered by me than by the antagonist(s). Tis human nature. So whatever did happen here, I don't find it all that unbelievable that Romney doesn't remember the incident.

If you murdered someone in cold blood when you were younger, you couldn't be president. If you smoked a joint, you could be. If you harassed a gay person in a really ugly fashion? That's yet to be seen.
 

robeiae

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If you murdered someone in cold blood when you were younger, you couldn't be president. If you smoked a joint, you could be. If you harassed a gay person in a really ugly fashion? That's yet to be seen.
But if a woman accused you of rape, you can be President. Weird, huh?
 

Haggis

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If you murdered someone in cold blood when you were younger, you couldn't be president. If you smoked a joint, you could be. If you harassed a gay person in a really ugly fashion? That's yet to be seen.
Well, Adlai Stevenson accidentally shot and killed another kid when he twelve or thirteen years old. It didn't stop him from running for President twice.
 

Rob Lefebvre

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I am not as affected by bullies or bullying as others, perhaps. I don't know.

In the past I have both been the bullied and the bully. I honestly do not think that punching a kid in the mouth in 9th grade 30 years ago would or should affect my candidacy for a political job today. Nor do I think Romney's college actions should matter today.

If you had punched a woman in the stomach for being a woman 30 years ago, and one of the big current issue was womens right, than it would and should affect your canidacy (I think I butchered that word) for president. If gay rights were not a big issue right now, or if he had hasled a kid who was not gay for being say a nerd or a dork than your point would stand. As it was he forcibly cut a kids hair, with several other kids, because the kid was gay, or not masculine enough. That is a pretty big deal given the current political state.
 

muravyets

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What happened was, that the real Mitt shone through that day. I don't believe people change that much. When your teenage years have passed, all (most) people do is learn to hide or supress certain behaviour, that is perceived by others as unwanted. At their core, they stay the same, Mitt is still Mitt.

What he has done that day is one of the most sickening things I've ever heard about (on par with consuming ground up baby-foetuses). These acts utterly destroy people. He did it because he found this boys hair offensive. He should have gone to jail for it. But at least now we know what kind of basterd he really is.
This. So very much this.

Oh, I don't know. Just because when I clicked on the link I got a pop up inviting me to sign up for Ann Coulter's newsletter doesn't mean anything.

So a self reported anecdote about how, at age ten, he pushed a girl away when being teased about her being a girlfriend would be bullying? And shows an insight into his character? I'm asking about what the reaction would be reaction to an actual bullying incident, not some nonsense picked up by right wing crazies.Oh, I don't think it will affect him much, if at all. But I liked LAgrunions point -- that had this been a story about Obama, many people would have been surprised and disturbed.

With Romney it's a shrug, and no surprise at all.
Well, to be fair, I'm not surprised either.

I may be less inclined to shrug it off, or make excuses for it, or suggest that it was somehow unavoidable what with the young Mr. Lauber being such a tasty bit of prey and all. I may be less likely to ask what the big deal is since bullying is somehow entirely normal and nothing to get het up about. And I may probably never be able to bring myself to tut-tut over how sad it all is as if we should feel sympathy for Romney equal to what we feel for the guy he assaulted with a sharp instrument wielded as a weapon. But no, I'm not in the least bit surprised to learn of this incident from Mitt's youth.

I'm also not surprised to see Mitt Romney giggle in his response with that shit-eating grin of his and that combination of nervousness and arrogance that is the hallmark of an inadequate, incompetent loser who has lived his entire life shielded by unearned social privilege, which has protected him from ever bearing direct personal responsibility for his bad acts and indiscretions.

I would be willing to bet real money right now that Romney not only remembers every moment of that assault, but has enjoyed a good laugh over it with his friends from time to time over the years. I would be willing to bet that if he was pressed on it, we would learn that he knows that society might frown on that sort of behavior but he has no idea why. I'd bet that he's been told to keep his mouth shut about for political reasons, but again, he has no idea why because he doesn't see anything wrong in what he did. I'd be willing to bet that, if pressed, he'd say Lauber got a big laugh out of it himself, just like he insists to this day that the dog loved being strapped to the roof the car in an open cage for long road trips.

I don't know what's psychologically or emotionally or developmentally or neurologically wrong with Mitt Romney, but this guy has absolutely no connection to other living things of any kind. No empathy, no sympathy, no fellow-feeling, no imagination, not even any ability to observe and learn.

He seems genuinely incapable of telling when he is hurting an animal. I do not believe he understands that it's not okay, it's not just good clean wholesome fun, to beat another person down and attack him with scissors. To this day, after all these years in which he could have grown up, he seems still not to know this.

He doesn't know that it's rude to denigrate food that his hosts offer him -- the wince-worthy cookie moment in Pennsylvania was mirrored by a similar moment during his gubernatorial campaign in Boston when he turned down a cannoli from a famous Italian bakery in the North End because he didn't know what it was. He doesn't know that it's not okay to make jokes about unemployment to the unemployed, or to brag about putting people out of work to an audience of people whose jobs his policy platform threatens, or to shrug off issues like poverty, women's rights, and international war as if they are unimportant and it's stupid and obnoxious of reporters to bring them up.

He seems to have no clue whatsoever that anything he says could possibly be insulting or hurtful or offensive to other people. It seems as if the idea of other people's reactions to things he says and does never enters his head at all. It's a non-topic, just as if all those other people don't even really exist. Every time I watch him, I get the horrible feeling that no one exists in his world but him. He found it easy and comfortable to strap the dog to the car roof, so therefore the dog enjoyed it, too. He thought it was a laff-riot to attack, terrorize and humiliate the Lauber kid, so therefore, it's no biggie. Lauber probably enjoyed the joke, too, right? The more I think about him, the more I expect someday we'll learn he goes about wishing people into cornfields.

Romney's personal behavior runs the gamut from idiotic to blood-chilling. There are many possible explanations for why he is this way. Every single one of those possible explanations is an overwhelming argument for why he should never be president or hold any other office of power. This guy ain't right.

Well, Adlai Stevenson accidentally shot and killed another kid when he twelve or thirteen years old. It didn't stop him from running for President twice.

Not cold blood.
Also not elected.
 
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muravyets

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No. But I suppose it could be argued that Dwight Eisenhower killed hundreds of thousands of people.
Well, you know what they say: Kill 10 and you're a murderer. Kill a million and you're a hero. Or something like that.

Military service is not the same thing, just like an accidental shooting is not the same as a deliberate, violent beat-down.
 

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Well, you know what they say: Kill 10 and you're a murderer. Kill a million and you're a hero. Or something like that.

Military service is not the same thing, just like an accidental shooting is not the same as a deliberate, violent beat-down.
Of course. To you and me. Others might not be so forgiving. But I'm derailing here and I didn't mean to. Back to the fray, y'all.
 

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If you murdered someone in cold blood when you were younger, you couldn't be president. If you smoked a joint, you could be. If you harassed a gay person in a really ugly fashion? That's yet to be seen.

Before he was elected president, Andrew Jackson had killed 13 men in duels.
 

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Romney's personal behavior runs the gamut from idiotic to blood-chilling. There are many possible explanations for why he is this way. Every single one of those possible explanations is an overwhelming argument for why he should never be president or hold any other office of power. This guy ain't right.

I remember saying something along the lines that it's indicative of something seriously wrong that this guy is one of the two choices we have...
 

LAgrunion

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I'd be willing to bet that, if pressed, he'd say Lauber got a big laugh out of it himself, just like he insists to this day that the dog loved being strapped to the roof the car in an open cage for long road trips.

Full disclosure: I have a soft spot for animals, so I'm biased.

I still don't think Mitt is evil.

Most of us have done things that reflect badly on our character. So, I'm willing to cut people some slack.

The problems is, when the bad examples start to pile up, you start to see a pattern that's a hard to ignore. The Lauber event, the dog on the car roof event (I mean, come on, how many loving dog owners would do that?), and all the other things muravyets mentioned.

At the very least, Mitt seems to have a major empathy issue. Which makes me nervous about putting him in charge of decisions like, I dunno, bombing people (and animals).
 

clintl

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Pretty much agree with that. I don't think any one of these incidents in itself necessarily means a lot, but when they keep adding up like they do, it does mean something isn't right with Romney. And I don't believe he doesn't remember the incident, either. Or if he really doesn't, I have to wonder if that's even worse than lying about not remembering. At least, lying about it demonstrates an understanding that what he did was wrong. Not remembering implies it meant so little to him that the understanding isn't even present.
 

Alessandra Kelley

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Before he was elected president, Andrew Jackson had killed 13 men in duels.

Maybe that's true. But Andrew Jackson is a terrible counterexample. Many people consider Jackson to be the worst, or one of the worst, presidents ever.

Jackson was a wealthy slaveowner who enthusiastically embraced and expanded the spoils system of handing out government jobs to personal friends and supporters regardless of merit or competence.

Possibly his worst crime was Andrew Jackson's personal, direct responsibility for the Trail of Tears, the forced genocide and removal of the Cherokee nation, and all Native Americans, from their ancestral lands east of the Mississippi, which resulted directly in the deaths of tens of thousands of Native American men, women, and children.

This despite the fact that the Cherokee, a highly civilized people, with their own farms, towns, and newspapers, were Jackson's friends, supporters and vital allies in some of his wars.

In 1830 Jackson passed the Indian Removal Act, a vicious betrayal of his Cherokee allies and supporters, and although the Cherokee took him to court, all the way to the Supreme Court -- and won -- Jackson unconstitutionally ignored the ruling of the Supreme Court and used his army to force the Cherokee off their land anyway.

During the Seminole Wars Jackson showed particular savagery towards the Seminoles and their escaped slave allies. He was sent to restore peace, but deliberately went far beyond his orders. He seized all of Florida, and executed British subjects he said had been aiding the Seminole. Tactics included shooting a red hot cannonball into the powder magazine of a fort sheltering hundreds of fugitive slave men, women, and children, the subsequent explosion killing most of them instantly, while the rest died soon after of their injuries. Jackson deliberately flew false colors, and when some Seminoles saw his British flag and thought they were safe, he hanged them.

Part of Jackson's Indian-removal plan was the secretive and rushed Treaty of Payne's Landing with the Seminole. The Seminole refused to leave Florida, and fighting went on for years. Jackson's troops, promising peace talks and truces, instead seized and imprisoned the Seminole negotiators, including Chief Osceola, who died in prison.
[T]he obvious duplicity of the U.S. government's tactics marred Indian-white relations throughout the country for future generations. (Florida Department of State history)

So, no, that Andrew Jackson killed men in duels is no counterexample at all.
 

Alessandra Kelley

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muravyets

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I remember saying something along the lines that it's indicative of something seriously wrong that this guy is one of the two choices we have...
And how. I was just saying with the family the other day, if Romney is the best the GOP could muster, the GOP needs to take a good look at itself.

Pretty much agree with that. I don't think any one of these incidents in itself necessarily means a lot, but when they keep adding up like they do, it does mean something isn't right with Romney. And I don't believe he doesn't remember the incident, either. Or if he really doesn't, I have to wonder if that's even worse than lying about not remembering. At least, lying about it demonstrates an understanding that what he did was wrong. Not remembering implies it meant so little to him that the understanding isn't even present.
It could also indicate a possible serious mental or neurological dissociative disorder which might cause him literally to have no awareness of his actions from time to tim, which I suppose could be something for the "it's all so sad" folks to focus on legitimately, but which obviously would make him not suitable for the office the POTUS.

Finally, brava, Alessandra Kelly! That lovely thumbnail portrait of Jackson as the kind of president we can expect to get when we elect someone who engaged in obviously deliberate recreational violence in his youth was just delicious. Yes, I definitely see and want to see more of Jackson being cited as an example for why Romney's boyhood viciousness should be shrugged off as no big deal. I lol'd and lol'd. :D
 
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