Politically Correct Sensitivity vs. Parody -- how close to the line is "oops, too close?"

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Ketzel

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You'll notice I wasn't responding to dclary, but to another poster's comments.
That was more or less my point, that the comments re: reclamation were not relevant to the issue raised by OP's original question.
 
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Nimram

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So I'm torn. I think the idea's brilliant (biased a little, perhaps), and I think it's cute enough that people might buy it. But at the same time, I'm *very* aware of the controversy the swastika itself presents.

Are there some items that are so raw they can't be successfully parodied? Is that one of those "Too soon" things?


What do you think?

Do it. No matter what you do it will offend someone. Yes, even a unicorn can be offensive:). So just go for it. It's not like you have a brand on the line. Make a store on Zazzle or something and see how it goes.
 

kuwisdelu

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That was more or less my point, that the comments re: reclamation were not relevant to the issue raised by OP's original question.

Threads often evolve into discussions beyond the scope of the original question.
 

Archerbird

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So, say, if some people desecrated the cross by killing and torturing millions of people under the sign of the crucifix, you'd consider it broken and say that Christians shouldn't be allowed to use it anymore because of how much evil has been done under it?

Sorry, I'm not going to answer that with anything other than that I had already halfways changed my mind in the post you quoted.

But okay, maybe, far into the future, when it's no longer used by nazi groupings, and people no longer find forgotten weapon depots in their backyard, it could be changed back. And even then, I don't think it's a good idea to make the symbol something to laugh about.
 

Alessandra Kelley

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Do it. No matter what you do it will offend someone. Yes, even a unicorn can be offensive:). So just go for it. It's not like you have a brand on the line. Make a store on Zazzle or something and see how it goes.

I think this is terrible advice, the sort of thing that leads to a firestorm of bad publicity with a bewildered instigator at the center.

In art about politics (which this is), one must always consider how and whom one will offend with one's project.

Will one offend, for example, mostly a group of privileged, unthinking plutocrats?

Will one offend mostly hidebound, unimaginative people?

Or will one offend a vast coalition of people whose loved ones were murdered simply because of their religion, people and the friends of people who were called on to fight a brutal régime, and people who object to genocide and conquering one's neighbors?

From this consideration, one can judge the wisdom and virtue of one's project.

Or at least, not be caught flat-footed by the reaction.
 

Nimram

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I think this is terrible advice, the sort of thing that leads to a firestorm of bad publicity with a bewildered instigator at the center.

In art about politics (which this is), one must always consider how and whom one will offend with one's project.

Will one offend, for example, mostly a group of privileged, unthinking plutocrats?

Will one offend mostly hidebound, unimaginative people?

Or will one offend a vast coalition of people whose loved ones were murdered simply because of their religion, people and the friends of people who were called on to fight a brutal régime, and people who object to genocide and conquering one's neighbors?

Well, I guess we disagree:). Editing your art(whatever that art is) for what some people call political correctness just doesn't feel right to me.
I have some chips on my shoulder too, mine are with communism. But I have no problem with kids wearing tees with communist symbols on them(they seem to be popular now). I don't feel offended by it because I know why they wear it. If i were so easily offended I would have a hard time living amongst humans.
 

fireluxlou

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Well, I guess we disagree:). Editing your art(whatever that art is) for what some people call political correctness just doesn't feel right to me.
I have some chips on my shoulder too, mine are with communism. But I have no problem with kids wearing tees with communist symbols on them(they seem to be popular now). I don't feel offended by it because I know why they wear it. If i were so easily offended I would have a hard time living amongst humans.

I don't think it'll go down well anyway, and there's already t-shirts available of this shtick. Urban Outfitters recently took down a shirt which was designed like the Jewish clothes in the Concentration Camps because people were upset that a retailer would sell something so offensive.

Oh LOL that you say that people are easily offended and crying 'Political correctness' being easily offended god forbid, means people have had to fight for their rights to be treated as human beings (which they still aren't). Political correctness is always thrown around by straight white men who moan that they can no longer offend or abuse groups of people who they've marginalized in the past. I'm so sorry if people who are of many different genders, colour, heritage, histories or sexuality like to be treated as if they're human beings.
 

Alessandra Kelley

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Well, I guess we disagree:). Editing your art(whatever that art is) for what some people call political correctness just doesn't feel right to me.
I have some chips on my shoulder too, mine are with communism. But I have no problem with kids wearing tees with communist symbols on them(they seem to be popular now). I don't feel offended by it because I know why they wear it. If i were so easily offended I would have a hard time living amongst humans.

I said nothing about political correctness. Nor did I imply that one should edit or censor one's art.

All I am doing is suggesting that people examine some possible consequences of confrontational art.

At no point did I say one should not do art that offends, only that one should give some thought to whom it offends, and in what way.

One may choose to offend with one's art. But it should not be done carelessly or lightly.
 

Nimram

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Please accept my apologies Alessandra. I read too much between the lines and read things that were not there.

ETA
to OP
Consider the implications and if you can take the heat before you do it, like Alessandra said.
 
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Rufus Coppertop

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I have a fantastic idea for a t-shirt involving grammar nazis... but the shirt's design looks like a swastika.

What do you think?

It suggests that being pedantic about grammar equates with holding to a totalitarian-racist ideology that perpetrated genocide at an industrial level.

It demeans people whose only imputable negative characteristic is that they are overly concerned with getting grammatical details right.

It also trivializes one of history's greatest monstrosities.
 

Rufus Coppertop

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Huh?? I don't understand this argument. The swastika was an important symbol of good and peaceful things to many peoples before the Nazis desecrated it.

It still is for many, just not the Nazi version. The Nazi version is tilted diagonally.
 

Ketzel

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Threads often evolve into discussions beyond the scope of the original question.
They do, but in this case, it was the OP who said:

Wouldn't it be awesome if we could diffuse their symbol? Give it less power. I don't know about you, but putting the Confederate Flag on the roof of the General Lee didn't give more power to the slavery movement in the south. It made that symbol just a little more ridiculous. It looked cool, for reasons not related whatsoever to its previous intent.

Why can't we do that? If someone can take a symbol (or a word for that matter) and change it, why can't we take that symbol or word and change it back?
Hence my comment on the OP not wanting to diffuse the symbol in his proposed use, but instead wanting to use it for what it now stands for - an extreme, brutal and violent ideology.
 

Magdalen

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It suggests that being pedantic about grammar equates with holding to a totalitarian-racist ideology that perpetrated genocide at an industrial level.

It demeans people whose only imputable negative characteristic is that they are overly concerned with getting grammatical details right.

It also trivializes one of history's greatest monstrosities.

This. It's not so much that people who strive for clarity in communication tout an oppressive ideology when they correct others, it's more about the correctees who, in their shame, are compelled to crucify their correctors.


As for the t-shirt, use an ankh: everyone knows good grammar is the key to life.
 

RichardGarfinkle

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This. It's not so much that people who strive for clarity in communication tout an oppressive ideology when they correct others, it's more about the correctees who, in their shame, are compelled to crucify their correctors.


As for the t-shirt, use an ankh: everyone knows good grammar is the key to life.

But will you use the Ankh correctly in its Cartouche?

Sorry, I couldn't think of a good hieroglyphic grammar joke, so I told a bad one.
 

benbradley

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It suggests that being pedantic about grammar equates with holding to a totalitarian-racist ideology that perpetrated genocide at an industrial level.

It demeans people whose only imputable negative characteristic is that they are overly concerned with getting grammatical details right.

It also trivializes one of history's greatest monstrosities.
It's arguable that calling someone a "Grammar Nazi" does the exact same thing, but that's become commonpace, and it's even acceptable on AW in some forms such as saying light-heartedly in a thread with joking banter "Your [sic] such a Grammar Nazi!"

But the swastika is not acceptable in the USA, in (most) other English-speaking areas of the world, and surely not in most non-English-speaking areas.

Some things are acceptable, and some things are not. We can argue over why or whether this "should be" true, but it is.
 

dclary

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God, do all of you antfuck topics like this offline?

Having never actually fornicated insects, it's difficult for me to answer this. Please send pics so I can consider the answer thoughtfully.
 

dclary

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not-z.png


This was the idea I had. Judge for yourself.

Just a rough draft.

As I said at the top of page 2, I'm not pursuing it anymore. The question asked at the beginning has not been addressed directly, though, so still curious. *Where* is that line that cannot be crossed between honest parody and insult? Does it differ per person? Per event? Can it be quantified? If it can't, then can anything be considered parody, in the right circumstances?
 

MacAllister

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Good christ, Deek - shrink that image by at least half, okay?
 

poetinahat

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Whether or not it's appropriate or offensive isn't so much the point for me. I mean, Jerry Seinfeld had his 'soup nazi'.

Personally, though, the concept just doesn't sound funny to me; it's already a cliche. I'm not big on slogan t-shirts, though, so I'm not the target market.

I've never liked using 'nazi' as a metaphor for 'pedant' or 'stickler'. Not even the soup nazi.

But, if you really do go ahead, I'd recommend evolving the concept: 'Adolph Stickler' - is that funny? I dunno. Maybe 'Stickler's Mother' would be more popular among the erudite? How about 'The Pink Pedanther'?

Also, I'd rework the graphic. It looks more like a dollar sign than a swastika.

Then again, if you make it look like a swastika, people who aren't close enough to read it will just see a swastika. When they get closer, it won't be as funny as all that, at least not enough to make up for the first impression.

Again, bottom line for me: with respect, I think it needs a lot of work.
 

benbradley

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I've talked of wearing a pedant around my neck (which isn't even correct - the "pedant" would be hanging on a chain or necklace around my neck).
 

dclary

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Whether or not it's appropriate or offensive isn't so much the point for me. I mean, Jerry Seinfeld had his 'soup nazi'.

Personally, though, the concept just doesn't sound funny to me; it's already a cliche. I'm not big on slogan t-shirts, though, so I'm not the target market.

I've never liked using 'nazi' as a metaphor for 'pedant' or 'stickler'. Not even the soup nazi.

But, if you really do go ahead, I'd recommend evolving the concept: 'Adolph Stickler' - is that funny? I dunno. Maybe 'Stickler's Mother' would be more popular among the erudite? How about 'The Pink Pedanther'?

Also, I'd rework the graphic. It looks more like a dollar sign than a swastika.

Then again, if you make it look like a swastika, people who aren't close enough to read it will just see a swastika. When they get closer, it won't be as funny as all that, at least not enough to make up for the first impression.

Again, bottom line for me: with respect, I think it needs a lot of work.

This is just the brainstorming phase, PIAT. The question gets asked and passed around. There's no sense spending a ton of effort making something ill-advised that no one will ever buy. Don't mistake me for the Chevy Volt design team!

:)
 

poetinahat

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This is just the brainstorming phase, PIAT. The question gets asked and passed around. There's no sense spending a ton of effort making something ill-advised that no one will ever buy. Don't mistake me for the Chevy Volt design team!

:)

I'd never do that, D.

The above description would just classify you as...

... a poet.

:thankyou:
 
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