what do you think of my cover?

Terie

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your point is a good one. but i don't think that the cover i've come up with so far completely reeks of suck.

There's a long way between 'amateur' and 'reeks of suck'. I agree that the current version doesn't reek of suck. :)

That said, a professional artist understands how images, background, layout, typefaces, and so on work together to convey a particular look and feel. This is, IMO, what your cover is lacking. The elements don't work together to do anything; they're all just 'there'.

I'm not an artist, so I can't even begin to advise; I'm merely observing that this is why your cover doesn't seem to be working, and remarking on what an experienced cover designer brings to the table that inexperienced amateurs can't.
 

gothicangel

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Re: the tag line.

I'm no prude, but are intending to try and get the book stocked in bookshops, on Amazon? Not with the swears you won't.

It's a gimmick, and I don't buy it. As a former manager, I just wouldn't stock it because it's not worth the hassle from disgruntled customers, who will just go elsewhere and damage my business. I was in Waterstone's on Thursday and picked up a book of a author I had already read, knew he was fond of f**k, c**t etc. But when I opened the first page and found the first word was f**k, I put it back down, because it was a gimmick. I want a first sentence to be like budding cherry blossom, opening me to a different world, not some bland dialogue, stuck in there for shock factor.

Because I can, and will, take my book purchases elsewhere.

My advice: get rid of the tagline.
 

robertbevan

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terie, i hear you loud and clear. i've had visually artistic friends in the past who "got it" in a way that i never could. you can take away the knowledge from this thread that you've made a difference in the way that one guy thought about his cover art. i'm not making the decision to hire a professional right now, but i am making the decision to look into it. thank you.


gothicangel. i'm very wary when it comes to gimmicks. i don't think "shit just got real" is an attempt at "oh my god did he just use a cuss word?!" in your face kind of thing. it's a commonly used expression.

i would understand where you're coming from if the tagline had been something like "fuck you, you fucking fuck fuck!" that's what i consider to be a gimmicky shock-value-only tagline.

as for bookstore shelves... i'm posting in the self-pubber's forum here. i'm just getting into this, and haven't researched the topic exhaustively just yet, but doesn't the self-pubbing route normally discount bookstore shelves anyway? (if i'm mistaken please correct me)

but you bring up something that i hadn't considered up til now. would a "bad" word on your cover limit your ability to display it on e-pub websites? would i have to bleep out the expletive?
 

gothicangel

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What you have to do, is put yourself in the shoes of a parent, who's seven year old has just seen your tagline on the internet/in a bookshop etc and ask 'Mummy, what does shit/fuck/cunt mean?'

Do you really want to be the author in the middle of a Daily Mail style witch-hunt?

As for self-published books in actual stores. Yes it can happen, if you are a good salesman and get on well with the manager of your local bookstore.
 

Old Hack

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I have plenty of friends who find the word "shit" just as offensive as the word "fuck", and who wouldn't consider your book simply because of that tagline. It doesn't matter how compelling your premise, or how good your writing is once they start to read: they won't even pick the book up and read the back cover copy because of that single word.

But they're not likely to come across it, because many retailers won't even consider stocking a book with a tagline like that.

If you keep that tagline on your front cover you're going to restrict your potential market by a huge degree. I'm with gothicangel on this one.
 

kaitie

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In regards to a suggestion further up-thread: I just wanted to say that, for me personally, I find off center titles and author names to almost always scream "self-published."

The vast majority of books I've seen commercially published are centered. I just picked up ten books off my shelf and only one had an off center author name (title centered). On the other hand, a lot of self-published books I've seen do this in what I assume is an attempt to look original or interesting or artistic.

This isn't professional advice because I'm not a professional, but it's advice as a reader. I'm not kidding. To me it just almost always looks unprofessional, and the one example I picked up just now has an odd sense of balance and was obviously professionally done.

I'd suggest leaving it centered, and that would be my advice to any self-published author who decided to make their own cover. I haven't seen a self-published book with off-center titles yet that looked professionally made. Even the good ones.
 

robertbevan

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What you have to do, is put yourself in the shoes of a parent, who's seven year old has just seen your tagline on the internet/in a bookshop etc and ask 'Mummy, what does shit/fuck/cunt mean?'

Do you really want to be the author in the middle of a Daily Mail style witch-hunt?

As for self-published books in actual stores. Yes it can happen, if you are a good salesman and get on well with the manager of your local bookstore.



I have plenty of friends who find the word "shit" just as offensive as the word "fuck", and who wouldn't consider your book simply because of that tagline. It doesn't matter how compelling your premise, or how good your writing is once they start to read: they won't even pick the book up and read the back cover copy because of that single word.

But they're not likely to come across it, because many retailers won't even consider stocking a book with a tagline like that.

If you keep that tagline on your front cover you're going to restrict your potential market by a huge degree. I'm with gothicangel on this one.

well i guess that's that then. bummer. i liked the tagline, but i think you're probably right. no need to shoot myself in the foot this early on. thank you.
 

narmowen

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I think something like "Just a game?" And, it sounds really interesting!
 

Al Stevens

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In regards to a suggestion further up-thread: I just wanted to say that, for me personally, I find off center titles and author names to almost always scream "self-published."
This statement troubled me when I first read it because I agree with Kaitie on most things, yet one of the covers I'm thinking of using has left-justified title and author text to expose what of the background art I want seen, and it's the only cover I've designed that I actually like. So I went on a search looking at covers of trade-published books on my shelves.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1416507787/?tag=absowrit-20
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0743437497/?tag=absowrit-20
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1416549854/?tag=absowrit-20
http://www.amazon.com/dp/031294358X/?tag=absowrit-20
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0553381334/?tag=absowrit-20

That didn't take very long--finding the links took longer than finding the books--and I quit searching after five. I feel better now. :tongue
 

JohnnyGottaKeyboard

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I'm very late to the party and have little new to add. The biggest thing is that when I saw the original image (at the start of the thread) I imagined the book was a modern espionage thriller centering around game theory. Moving the dice onto a wooden table softened that some, tho I agree with you that the four guys standing near a wall with their shadows in the shapes of their game characters sounded more appropriate.

But if you do stay with this cover you could use the tag line: "One last roll"
 

robertbevan

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I'm very late to the party and have little new to add. The biggest thing is that when I saw the original image (at the start of the thread) I imagined the book was a modern espionage thriller centering around game theory.

if you write that book, between my friends and i, i can guarantee you at least four or five sales. that sounds like an awesome premise, but i'm not the guy to write it.

thanks for the input.
 

Gale Haut

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This statement troubled me when I first read it because I agree with Kaitie on most things, yet one of the covers I'm thinking of using has left-justified title and author text to expose what of the background art I want seen, and it's the only cover I've designed that I actually like. So I went on a search looking at covers of trade-published books on my shelves.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1416507787/?tag=absowrit-20
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0743437497/?tag=absowrit-20
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1416549854/?tag=absowrit-20
http://www.amazon.com/dp/031294358X/?tag=absowrit-20
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0553381334/?tag=absowrit-20

That didn't take very long--finding the links took longer than finding the books--and I quit searching after five. I feel better now. :tongue

Right. Something will scream self published not based on a simple formula of left, right, or centered. It's based more on positioning and association.

You have three main elements to a cover: Title, Image and Author. All three attempt to tell a story; and the placement, arrangement and size of the elements gives additional details. You are certainly not limited to one arrangement, since most stories are very different from one another, and similar concepts can be conveyed in different ways.

Anyway, sorry for that. /diatribe
 

blrude

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I can't give you a suggestion as specific as "hey use this font" but have you trolled through your own collection of nerd-books lately? See how the covers for D&D has changed over the years. Look at the covers for Rifts books. And White Wolf. And if you're lucky enough to have an ancient game store that still carries yellowing copies of small run games from the 70's and 80's, then totally look at those because I think you need a typeface that reeks of a classic gaming manual or pulp fantasy novel. And that does mean the software you're using may not be enough to do the effects you want.

/2c
 

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The cover isn't terrible, but reconsider a professional cover designer. Your sales will thank you for it.

A few notes. You definitely want some variety on that cover. A textured background, different fonts, colors, etc to bring that thing to life. The solid black and white isn't terrible, but it doesn't pop either. Use at least two distinct title fonts on your cover, use more than simple b&w, get some texture on there, and don't go straight on the dice. Check dafont.com they have lots of free fonts, check licensing thouh as each has different rules. Check stock exchange, a free image site, for royalty free images, but here too each image has different rules for use.

People spend years learning graphic design, anything less than a professional will almost always look less than professional. A few hundred dollars is not a huge investment to make when you're already planning on self-publishing.
 
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robertbevan

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thank you, blrude and cliffhanger. i didn't see your posts until just now. i think i'll be going with a professional after all.
 

robertbevan

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i feel like i'm picking at a scab here, but i'd like to push this discussion a little further. i'm not one of those people who 'just won't listen'. a quick look at the first and last drafts of my novel will show you that much.

but i've been doing some thinking, and i'm not yet convinced that my proposed tagline (which i've now changed to "shit is about to get real") is that big a problem... or even a problem at all.

Re: the tag line.

I'm no prude, but are intending to try and get the book stocked in bookshops, on Amazon? Not with the swears you won't.

i just had a look at amazon. i typed "shit" in their ebook search engine, and got several pages of books with the word "shit" in their titles or taglines.

Do you really want to be the author in the middle of a Daily Mail style witch-hunt?

i don't know. maybe i do. you can't buy that kind of publicity, right?

As for self-published books in actual stores. Yes it can happen, if you are a good salesman and get on well with the manager of your local bookstore.

i live in korea. my local bookstores aren't going to do me a whole hell of a lot of good.


I have plenty of friends who find the word "shit" just as offensive as the word "fuck", and who wouldn't consider your book simply because of that tagline. It doesn't matter how compelling your premise, or how good your writing is once they start to read: they won't even pick the book up and read the back cover copy because of that single word.

i'll save your friends the trouble. they aren't going to like the book.

But they're not likely to come across it, because many retailers won't even consider stocking a book with a tagline like that.

If you keep that tagline on your front cover you're going to restrict your potential market by a huge degree. I'm with gothicangel on this one.

okay... this is what i'd like to hear more about. who are the retailers who won't consider stocking a book with a "bad" word on the cover? and i'd like to emphasize that i'm not arguing with you, or claiming that you're wrong about this. it's a question to which i have no preconceived answer, and i'd genuinely like to know.

amazon was mentioned before, but i've discovered that doesn't seem to be the case.

i did a google search for profanity on book covers, and i got a bunch of blogs that centered on a few books, such as "shit my dad says", "go the fuck to sleep", "assholes finish first", and one more which i've forgotten the name of. they're in bookstores, aren't they?



one more point i'd like to make... covers can be changed, can't they? i mean, if i were to go ahead with it, and then decide later that it was a dumb idea, i can just go ahead and change the cover, can't i? start over?

please don't write me off as someone who is just going to ignore you and do whatever i want anyway. as you can see in post #57, i dumped the idea at one point because of your advice.

i want to do what's best for me and my book. but i also don't want to make any judgments based on the opinions of two people who might just not like "bad" language... even if one of them is old hack, who has demonstrated time after time that she's someone who knows her shit. (no offense intended.)
 

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i live in korea. my local bookstores aren't going to do me a whole hell of a lot of good.

What about the bookshops which are local to where you grew up, or local to where you have family or friends living, or local to anything you've ever done or been involved in? Even though you're in Korea, you can still contact them. There's this thing called teh intarwebz. It's very useful, apparently.

i'll save your friends the trouble. they aren't going to like the book.

That's kind of you. Now, what about the people who don't mind reading a sweary book but who don't want their children to see sweary stuff and so wouldn't buy it? Or the people who don't want to be seen sitting on the bus into work reading a book with sweary stuff on the cover? There's a big group right there.

I really think that you're risking alienating your potential readership before they've given your book a chance but if you're happy with that, you go right ahead.

okay... this is what i'd like to hear more about. who are the retailers who won't consider stocking a book with a "bad" word on the cover? and i'd like to emphasize that i'm not arguing with you, or claiming that you're wrong about this. it's a question to which i have no preconceived answer, and i'd genuinely like to know.

I've not got a list, but I've spoken to all sorts of people over the years who are rightly cautious about this. Bookshops don't restrict access to people over the age of 18, or to people with robust sensibilities; they allow all sorts to come in and they need those customers, and so their buyers and managers are sensitive to things which might offend or alienate some.

i did a google search for profanity on book covers, and i got a bunch of blogs that centered on a few books, such as "shit my dad says", "go the fuck to sleep", "assholes finish first", and one more which i've forgotten the name of. they're in bookstores, aren't they?

Shit My Dad Says has the "i" in "shit" asterisked out on its cover. Go The Fuck To Sleep has the two middle letters in the word "fuck" asterisked out. I don't think that replacing letters with asterisks transforms swearwords, and I don't get how it makes them less offensive or more acceptable in anyone's eyes, and I think it looks coy and sneaky, but there you go. Some people obviously do, or it wouldn't be done. Are you planning on asterisking some of the letters out in your subtitle? Because if you don't I bet there are plenty of bookshops which wouldn't even consider carrying it.

I can't remember seeing Assholes Finish First in any UK bookshop and even if it were there, "ass" isn't a swearword here.

one more point i'd like to make... covers can be changed, can't they? i mean, if i were to go ahead with it, and then decide later that it was a dumb idea, i can just go ahead and change the cover, can't i? start over?

Of course you can. But by then you'll have already alienated some of the people who saw it, and can you guarantee that they'll (a) see your book in its new livery and (b) be willing to give you a second chance even though you offended them before?

i want to do what's best for me and my book. but i also don't want to make any judgments based on the opinions of two people who might just not like "bad" language... even if one of them is old hack, who has demonstrated time after time that she's someone who knows her shit. (no offense intended.)

Too fucking right I do.

Look. I don't object to swearwords (but I don't like the term "bad language" in this context, because it makes me think of poorly-written stuff rather than swearwords). I use them often, every day, and in many different contexts. My point isn't that I object to them but that many other people do, and that booksellers are sensitive to things which put their customers off. If you go ahead with this subtitle you will be restricting your potential market unecessarily. If you understand that and still want to go ahead with it, then do it. It's your choice.
 

eggs

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I wouldn't buy a book with a 'swear word' on the front cover, or even one with a swear word on the first page. This isn't because I dislike profanity, it's because swear words are cheap and easy. I want to read books that are clever and interesting. If the author can't even get past the first page without shooting their load then it makes me doubt their ability to carry a story. There are squillions of books to choose from, so I just pass your book by and look for another one.

Why put something on the front cover that's guaranteed to make a percentage of potential buys click on the 'next' button without even bothering to read your blurb? That's economic insanity. You can swear your little heart out once you've got someone to buy, most readers won't care. The biggest hurdle is getting them to buy it in the first place. Don't sabotage yourself over a single word.
 

missouridalton

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All right, I am a professional artist, and I have this opinion.
1) Book covers have genres, right now, your book cover fits rather squarely into nonfiction rather than comedy/fantasy

2) Your cover isn't actually bad, but I think you need to decide clearly what genre this book fits into and look at a lot of other book covers online to see what tends to be the cover art "type" of that genre. The reason for this is two-fold. People tend to be visual, they see images first and make assumptions. The other reason is, your book cover online is likely only going to 2x3 inches on screen. If it has the general look of the genre it fits into, it will be easier to find.

If you decide to get a professional to do your cover, I would recommend looking on deviantart.com. There are a lot of great student artists there, reasonably priced.

Oh, and I totally don't have a problem with the swearword. Personally, I could care less about the words on a cover. The hinky F*%# thing, looks more gimmicky to me than just saying fuck. I'd rather see a swear word than a bare chest. It's weird, I know.

Good luck, and if you have any art questions, I would be happy to help.