Welcome to the AbsoluteWrite Water Cooler! Please read The Newbie Guide To Absolute Write

Page 5 of 7 FirstFirst 1234567 LastLast
Results 101 to 125 of 174

Thread: Vatican Orders Crackdown On American Nuns

  1. #101
    Absinthe O'Malice TerzaRima's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    the foulest in the land
    Posts
    3,195
    This thread calls for Dorothy Sayers to weigh in:

    Perhaps it is no wonder that the women were first at the Cradle and last at the Cross. They had never known a man like this Man — there never has been such another. A prophet and teacher who never nagged at them, never flattered or coaxed or patronised; who never made arch jokes about them, never treated them either as "The women, God help us!" or "The ladies, God bless them!"; who rebuked without querulousness and praised without condescension; who took their questions and arguments seriously; who never mapped out their sphere for them, never urged them to be feminine or jeered at them for being female; who had no axe to grind and no uneasy male dignity to defend; who took them as he found them and was completely unself-conscious.
    There is no act, no sermon, no parable in the whole Gospel that borrows its pungency from female perversity; nobody could possibly guess from the words of Jesus that there was anything 'funny' about woman’s nature.
    But we might easily deduce it from His contemporaries, and from His prophets before Him, and from His Church to this day.
    Warren G. Harding looks like that eagle from the Muppets who does the news. And—I’m just going to come out and say it—I find that eagle very attractive.

  2. #102
    Bright and Early for the Daily Race Chrissy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Mad World
    Posts
    6,590
    Thanks, Richard. I appreciate the time you took in providing that information. I have read the Old Testament a couple of times, and I understand some of the Judaic laws of holiness, righteousness, cleanliness, obedience, sacrifice, worship, and honoring God.

    It's great that these laws have been written down by scribes, who were taught, as you say, by the Pharisees, and the religion has thus been preserved.

    But I still don't get what that has to do with what I quoted. I didn't say the Pharisees were doing something wrong, some guy named Jesus said they were. That was his opinion. He was there. A bunch of people agreed with him. A bunch of other people didn't.

    It's also worth noting that when Jesus said those things, he was talking to a group of Pharisees that were standing right there. So, maybe he was just talking to/about that particular group--the ones who were keeping an eye on him, or trying to control him, trying to mitigate the damage from the waves he was making. I have no idea.

    But I certainly didn't make that post to say: see, Jewish scribes were evil. I posted it as indicative of the original message of Christianity, which is right now being utterly contradicted by what's happening in the Vatican. IMO.

    I never want to offend anyone, but I don't think I'm required to say: "Your religion and your religious leaders are beyond reproach" because I don't want to offend you. If that were true, this thread would be kaput.

    You can tell me all day long what Christians are doing wrong, and I'll probably agree with you. I find it hard to even identify with being a Christian anymore, but I love J.C. just 'cuz of how awesome he was. What he taught makes sense to me.
    Last edited by Chrissy; 04-20-2012 at 11:52 PM.

  3. #103
    That cheeky buggerer Maxinquaye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    In your mind
    Posts
    9,884
    Maybe the Church doing this can remove some misconceptions, and that in the end it will be a good thing.

    For one it might remove the misconception that the church is a democracy and that the doctrine is something that is up for debate. It is not. The doctrine is, according to catholics, the revealed word of god, and is therefore infallible.

    Another thing is that it might remove the misconception that the church does not have the means to enforce the doctrine. It does. It can excommunicate people, and prevent them from participating in the sacraments. In other words, send people to hell.

    Third, it might remove the misconception that the Pope is just another priest with a higher pay-grade. He is in fact the representative of God on Earth, and is the successor of the apostles, and Peter in particular. He is infallible, when it comes to doctrine.

    Fourth, maybe, for once, it may make modern people stop and think about whether they actually want to belong to this organisation. I don’t think the nuns will leave. They’ve been in the infallible church all their lives, and they will do as they’re told. But maybe to members and the lay people will think, for once, about what they are a member of.
    ----
    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous
    The greatest oak was once a little nut who held its ground
    Quote Originally Posted by Julian Barnes
    "Yes, of course we were pretentious — what else is youth for?"
    ----
    My blog and site:
    Max on Everything

  4. #104
    sometimes woefully inaccurate Nimram's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    EU, Romania
    Posts
    200
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxinquaye View Post
    Maybe the Church doing this can remove some misconceptions, and that in the end it will be a good thing.

    For one it might remove the misconception that the church is a democracy and that the doctrine is something that is up for debate. It is not. The doctrine is, according to catholics, the revealed word of god, and is therefore infallible.

    Another thing is that it might remove the misconception that the church does not have the means to enforce the doctrine. It does. It can excommunicate people, and prevent them from participating in the sacraments. In other words, send people to hell.

    Third, it might remove the misconception that the Pope is just another priest with a higher pay-grade. He is in fact the representative of God on Earth, and is the successor of the apostles, and Peter in particular. He is infallible, when it comes to doctrine.

    Fourth, maybe, for once, it may make modern people stop and think about whether they actually want to belong to this organisation. I don’t think the nuns will leave. They’ve been in the infallible church all their lives, and they will do as they’re told. But maybe to members and the lay people will think, for once, about what they are a member of.
    Yeah. And throw in some burning heretics to complete the picture.
    "Subject!? I am no subject to flesh, little man."

  5. #105
    Psychopompous AW Moderator RichardGarfinkle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Chicago, Il
    Posts
    8,577
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrissy View Post
    Thanks, Richard. I appreciate the time you took in providing that information. I have read the Old Testament a couple of times, and I understand some of the Judaic laws of holiness, righteousness, cleanliness, obedience, sacrifice, worship, and honoring God.

    It's great that these laws have been written down by scribes, who were taught, as you say, by the Pharisees, and the religion has thus been preserved.

    But I still don't get what that has to do with what I quoted. I didn't say the Pharisees were doing something wrong, some guy named Jesus said they were. That was his opinion. He was there. A bunch of people agreed with him. A bunch of other people didn't.

    It's also worth noting that when Jesus said those things, he was talking to a group of Pharisees that were standing right there. So, maybe he was just talking to/about that particular group--the ones who were keeping an eye on him, or trying to control him, trying to mitigate the damage from the waves he was making. I have no idea.

    But I certainly didn't make that post to say: see, Jewish scribes were evil. I posted it as indicative of the original message of Christianity, which is right now being utterly contradicted by what's happening in the Vatican. IMO.

    I never want to offend anyone, but I don't think I'm required to say: "Your religion and your religious leaders are beyond reproach" because I don't want to offend you. If that were true, this thread would be kaput.

    You can tell me all day long what Christians are doing wrong, and I'll probably agree with you. I find it hard to even identify with being a Christian anymore, but I love J.C. just 'cuz of how awesome he was. What he taught makes sense to me.
    Chrissy, I'm not suggesting any of that. I've been trying to bring across one idea, that one person's profane can be another person's sacred. And that it is both hard and important to try to remember that. There are people who take this far more seriously than I do.

    This thread is tricky because of the subject matter. I've sort of been trying to treat it like the threads in the Comparitive Religion board. Mac has a post there,the One Rule. Her post starts

    Respect for each other, and for beliefs sometimes alien to ourselves, is the order of the day here.
    I realize P&CE is different, but it seems to me that better understanding of these kinds of differences is important when religion crosses over into politics.

    That the leaders of the church here are being hypocritical I agree with. That Jesus preached against such hypocrisy and did so justly I agree with, but identifying the hypocrites as the Pharisees is about equivalent to saying that all priests are evil, and that the teachings of the Church are inherently corrupt.

    The evil actions of individuals should be attributed to those individuals, not to groups.

    In circumstances like this collective nouns can be dangerous.

    I know you mean well. I'd like to help make sure others know it as well.
    Sometimes, what people need is to have things asked of them.




    Now on Smashwords

  6. #106
    Pit Livin' & Purgatory Dreamin' SteveCordero's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    2,872
    The Catholic Church was never a democracy so there never should be a misconception. But that just makes it more susceptible to revolution.

    There is a bona fide disconnect between the heirarchy and the layity, especially in the U.S., where the Catholic Church is dying a slow death with aging priests and nuns without replacement and dwindling congregations. More and more priests have to be brought in from abroad and churches are being closed.

    I find this all exciting because the Vatican's actions are a blatant sign of a tyrant in fear. With social media and the 24 hr news cycle, their actions are in the spotlight.

  7. #107
    "Assume Good Intentions" SuperModerator Williebee's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    youtu.be/QRruBVFXjnY
    Posts
    19,178
    Quote:
    Respect for each other, and for beliefs sometimes alien to ourselves, is the order of the day here.
    I realize P&CE is different
    Actually, no. It isn't. Mac and I, and many of the other Mods have talked about this several times. No one is expected or required to believe what someone else believes, but we are all expected to respect their right to believe it.

    "There's a Voodoo Game on in the Crescent City. Pray for the Pawns."

    "Murder at the Beach" -- Anthony Award Nominated Anthology!

    Available now where all kinds of cool books are sold.
    Kobo Kindle Nook iBook
    More stories by Eldon Hughes -- "I Found A Knife"

    Read the Newbie Guide.

    "We are writers; we own our words. Please choose yours to add light and not just heat."

  8. #108
    Bright and Early for the Daily Race Chrissy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Mad World
    Posts
    6,590
    Quote Originally Posted by RichardGarfinkle View Post
    Chrissy, I'm not suggesting any of that. I've been trying to bring across one idea, that one person's profane can be another person's sacred. And that it is both hard and important to try to remember that. There are people who take this far more seriously than I do.

    This thread is tricky because of the subject matter. I've sort of been trying to treat it like the threads in the Comparitive Religion board. Mac has a post there,the One Rule. Her post starts

    Respect for each other, and for beliefs sometimes alien to ourselves, is the order of the day here.
    I totally agree with this, even for P&CE.

    I realize P&CE is different, but it seems to me that better understanding of these kinds of differences is important when religion crosses over into politics.

    That the leaders of the church here are being hypocritical I agree with. That Jesus preached against such hypocrisy and did so justly I agree with, but identifying the hypocrites as the Pharisees is about equivalent to saying that all priests are evil, and that the teachings of the Church are inherently corrupt.

    The evil actions of individuals should be attributed to those individuals, not to groups.

    In circumstances like this collective nouns can be dangerous.

    I know you mean well. I'd like to help make sure others know it as well.
    Thanks, and I think I see what you're saying. Maybe I should have paraphrased a bit when I was quoting. I could have said, Jesus condemned the same type of behavior he perceived in the religious leaders of his day. He said:
    "Woe unto you .... hypocrites!"
    etc., etc.

    Yes?

  9. #109
    Psychopompous AW Moderator RichardGarfinkle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Chicago, Il
    Posts
    8,577
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrissy View Post
    I totally agree with this, even for P&CE.



    Thanks, and I think I see what you're saying. Maybe I should have paraphrased a bit when I was quoting. I could have said, Jesus condemned the same type of behavior he perceived in the religious leaders of his day. He said: etc., etc.

    Yes?
    Yup. That's just fine. And yeah, woe unto them. Now back to the thread.
    Sometimes, what people need is to have things asked of them.




    Now on Smashwords

  10. #110
    Psychopompous AW Moderator RichardGarfinkle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Chicago, Il
    Posts
    8,577
    Quote Originally Posted by Williebee View Post
    Actually, no. It isn't. Mac and I, and many of the other Mods have talked about this several times. No one is expected or required to believe what someone else believes, but we are all expected to respect their right to believe it.
    Good to know. I was worried about being presumptuous about transporting the rule, lèse-majesté and all that. But it struck me as so valuable that I wanted to quote it and properly attribute it.
    Sometimes, what people need is to have things asked of them.




    Now on Smashwords

  11. #111
    Benefactor Member Nymtoc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Between the lines
    Posts
    33,980
    “There is no recourse here. None whatsoever.”

    Options facing LCWR stark, canon lawyers say | National Catholic Reporter

    I am out of my depth here, not being Catholic, but I am on friendly terms with a former nun who is still very devout, who is outraged by this development and who--not being a member of LCWR--is free to speak her mind.

    "The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.” ~ Terry Pratchett

  12. #112
    Sometimes I creep myself out. AW Moderator Calla Lily's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Non carborundum illegitimi
    Posts
    34,096


    Completely expected. Truly dreadful.

  13. #113
    Sophipygian AW Moderator Alessandra Kelley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Chicago, Illinois, USA
    Posts
    11,625
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymtoc View Post
    “There is no recourse here. None whatsoever.”

    Options facing LCWR stark, canon lawyers say | National Catholic Reporter

    I am out of my depth here, not being Catholic, but I am on friendly terms with a former nun who is still very devout, who is outraged by this development and who--not being a member of LCWR--is free to speak her mind.
    Quote Originally Posted by callalily61 View Post


    Completely expected. Truly dreadful.
    Holy cow.

    Morrissey said part of the problem regarding the question of whether the sisters can appeal the decision is the fact that, when a decision comes from the Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, “there’s no appeal except to the Doctrine of Faith itself.”

    ...

    The situation regarding the chances of appeal is so dim, Orsy said, that no canon lawyer would advise LCWR to spend time even trying to prepare a case to present.

    ...

    While Wednesday’s document referred to some specific concerns the congregation has with the group and referenced the meetings it has had with the sisters, it did not provide minutes of those meetings or release other documents.

    Orsy said any further examination of the congregation’s decision is hampered by that fact.

    “We are all handicapped because the evidence has not been published,” Orsy said. “And like any kind of decision, you measure the decision in relationship to the evidence. But the evidence has not been published, except in very general terms. Therefore, you cannot argue with a decision unless you get the evidence on which it was based.”
    Did I read that right? The evidence on which this terrible decision has been made is not publicly available, even to the nuns themselves?

    So they can't appeal, because in essence they don't even know the charges?

    Dear heaven.

  14. #114
    Sometimes I creep myself out. AW Moderator Calla Lily's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Non carborundum illegitimi
    Posts
    34,096
    The Inquisition has not changed its methods in centuries. Why should they, when they possess absolute power over the lives--and souls--of their victims? Don't bother to watch the History Channel--history is alive and active in the RCC today.

  15. #115
    Sophipygian AW Moderator Alessandra Kelley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Chicago, Illinois, USA
    Posts
    11,625
    Quote Originally Posted by Seraph View Post
    Can't the LCWR tell them to get stuffed, and split from the Vatican if they don't back off? A war of independence might be a good idea. Getting outraged about the acceptance of homosexuality, contraception and female priests is kinda stoneage.
    The difficulty, I believe, is that to become a nun you have to have a deep spiritual calling, enough to dedicate your life to it. To ask these women to split with the Vatican which, like it or not, has been the heart of their religion for over a millennium, is not a simple matter.

    There is also the practical matter of living. I was under the impression that nuns give up everything material to become nuns, and thus have nothing on which to live outside of the church. The church may provide for them only meagerly and reluctantly, but it still supports them. If they split with the Vatican, they will literally have to go begging just in order to live.

    But I am a non-Catholic reared irreligiously in a historically Quaker family. I may be wrong about this.

  16. #116
    the philosophical pegasus Shadow Dragon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    In the land of dragons
    Posts
    4,318
    Quote Originally Posted by Seraph View Post
    Can't the LCWR tell them to get stuffed, and split from the Vatican if they don't back off? A war of independence might be a good idea. Getting outraged about the acceptance of homosexuality, contraception and female priests is kinda stoneage.
    Sadly, it's not stone age to many people. Just look at the US. We have fundamentalist churches that make the Vatican look liberal in comparison and their numbers are rising. There are many people that still cling to old traditions and always will, regardless of anything someone says to them.
    "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." - Socrates

  17. #117
    Sophipygian AW Moderator Alessandra Kelley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Chicago, Illinois, USA
    Posts
    11,625
    Quote Originally Posted by Seraph View Post
    Can't the LCWR tell them to get stuffed, and split from the Vatican if they don't back off? A war of independence might be a good idea. Getting outraged about the acceptance of homosexuality, contraception and female priests is kinda stoneage.
    As I understand it, the stated trouble the Vatican is having with American nuns is not so much that the nuns accept those things as they aren't actively and loudly preaching against them everywhere and at all times.

  18. #118
    Sometimes I creep myself out. AW Moderator Calla Lily's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Non carborundum illegitimi
    Posts
    34,096
    Alessandra, yes, yes, yes, and yes. That's why upthread I pointed out that leaving the convent is not even remotely akin to quitting your job.

  19. #119
    practical experience, FTW Seraph's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    524
    Quote Originally Posted by callalily61 View Post
    That's why upthread I pointed out that leaving the convent is not even remotely akin to quitting your job.
    Can't they keep the convent but lose the pope?

  20. #120
    Sometimes I creep myself out. AW Moderator Calla Lily's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Non carborundum illegitimi
    Posts
    34,096
    Quote Originally Posted by Seraph View Post
    Can't they keep the convent but lose the pope?
    You're being sarcastic, right?

  21. #121
    That cheeky buggerer Maxinquaye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    In your mind
    Posts
    9,884
    Quote Originally Posted by Alessandra Kelley View Post
    As I understand it, the stated trouble the Vatican is having with American nuns is not so much that the nuns accept those things as they aren't actively and loudly preaching against them everywhere and at all times.
    It is a trouble that the Vatican has through-out the West. The median age of western nuns is very high, and there are few women of the west who has that kind of vocation that will make them join anyway.

    I mentioned Karmel Tuutus Tuus above. The nuns in that convent were all Polish and Latin American.
    ----
    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous
    The greatest oak was once a little nut who held its ground
    Quote Originally Posted by Julian Barnes
    "Yes, of course we were pretentious — what else is youth for?"
    ----
    My blog and site:
    Max on Everything

  22. #122
    Sophipygian AW Moderator Alessandra Kelley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Chicago, Illinois, USA
    Posts
    11,625
    Quote Originally Posted by Seraph View Post
    Can't they keep the convent but lose the pope?
    The Catholic church owns the convents, owns the land they stand on, owns all the furnishings and contents. The nuns own nothing ... Haven't you heard of a vow of poverty?

    If the nuns say goodbye, the church keeps all the stuff, possibly up to and including the clothes on their backs, although I suspect even this Vatican would not go so far as to claim their clothes in such an eventuality.

  23. #123
    Sometimes I creep myself out. AW Moderator Calla Lily's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Non carborundum illegitimi
    Posts
    34,096
    My one still-a-nun friend is 55. I'm 51. If I were still in harness, I'd be worrying who'd push my wheelchair when I got old, too. In between teaching kids, taking care of the really old nuns, helping the sick, bringing Communion to the house-bound, doing all the indoor and outdoor work of the convent... Gee, what's *wrong* with these nuns that they don't rail against the Pill and abortion and gay marriage while they're doing all this? Don't they understand that doctrine is EVERYTHING?


    Pardon me while I go punch something.



    ETA: Alessandra, if they were in habit, then yes, the church would take the clothes off their backs. Habits are blessed. When I left, the habits and veils stayed behind (not that I wanted them). Most service orders of nuns today wear regular clothes, however. I don't know about cloistered orders.

  24. #124
    Sophipygian AW Moderator Alessandra Kelley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Chicago, Illinois, USA
    Posts
    11,625
    Quote Originally Posted by Alessandra Kelley View Post
    As I understand it, the stated trouble the Vatican is having with American nuns is not so much that the nuns accept those things as they aren't actively and loudly preaching against them everywhere and at all times.
    Found a supporting quote from this Salt Lake Tribune article:

    The Vatican announcement said that "while there has been a great deal of work on the part of LCWR promoting issues of social justice in harmony with the church’s social doctrine, it is silent on the right to life from conception to natural death."

    It added that "crucial" issues such as "the church’s biblical view of family life and human sexuality, are not part of the LCWR agenda in a way that promotes church teaching. Moreover, occasional public statements by the LCWR that disagree with or challenge positions taken by the bishops, who are the church’s authentic teachers of faith and morals, are not compatible with its purpose."
    So, social justice, feeding the hungry, tending the sick, yadda yadda, nice and all that I'm sure, but clearly nuns are not dealing with the truly vital issues: preaching against abortion and gays. Plus also they sometimes challenge the bishops. And thus they must be hammered into submission.

    Malleus Beneficarum

  25. #125
    Pit Livin' & Purgatory Dreamin' SteveCordero's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    2,872
    Quote Originally Posted by callalily61 View Post


    Completely expected. Truly dreadful.
    Absolutely on both ends, but thats how revolutions go.

Page 5 of 7 FirstFirst 1234567 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Custom Search