Vatican Orders Crackdown On American Nuns

Anna L. · Apr 19, 2012

What is this, an attempt to speed along the extinction of nuns? Maybe they just don't want any icky women in their religion anymore.

In 2009, 91 percent of all nuns were at least 60 years old.

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/21/us/21nuns.html

The Tourist · Apr 19, 2012

Seraph said:
The fremdschamen. It burns.

Denying the reality of the pope's power out of mis-placed pride isn't debating. Debating is bringing arguments to bear upon stuff. And no one is saying it's a good thing, so I don't know who you think is trying to "win."

If *you* don't like the way I defend, then quit attacking.

As a full member here I have the right to comment on any issue posted, no matter what other members might say or feel. If *you* don't like it, put me on 'ignore' or just quit whining.

But I have the right to dislike your football team, your political stance, your favorite make of car and the pope.

Deleted member 42 · Apr 19, 2012

The Tourist said:
I don't think the pope can send you to hell. I don't even think the pope can send you to a bus station.

Yes, but you're not Catholic.

The Tourist said:
However, you raise the idea of a contest. Get me a shaman. Someone say "One, two, three, go!"

You keep misusing words; for instance, you clearly do not know what shaman means.

Equally clearly, you have not stopped to read the Newbie's Guide, or the P &CE stickies.

Do that now, please. Preferably before you post again.

You are misunderstanding the nature of this community, this particular forum, and your place in the universe.

These things do not bode well for your continued participation here, or on AW.

AW Admin · Apr 19, 2012

The Tourist said:
If *you* don't like the way I defend, then quit attacking.

As a full member here I have the right to comment on any issue posted, no matter what other members might say or feel. If *you* don't like it, put me on 'ignore' or just quit whining.

But I have the right to dislike your football team, your political stance, your favorite make of car and the pope.

Dude, seriously, you need to step back and chill.

You're not getting the culture of P&CE or AW.

Stop posting, read the stickies, and notice things like courtesy, and citations, and the basic standards for AW, and the particular set of expectation that go along with posting in P &CE.

Now.

The Tourist · Apr 19, 2012

I don't think we're a good fit, and my freedoms mean more to me than any forum. Please disconnect my account, I no longer wish to be associated with you.

AW Admin · Apr 19, 2012

The Tourist said:
I don't think we're a good fit, and my freedoms mean more to me than any forum. Please disconnect my account, I no longer wish to be associated with you.

Sorry, neither life nor AW work that way.

Why not step back, lurk a bit, and then try?

MacAllister · Apr 19, 2012

The Tourist said:
I don't think we're a good fit

Yeah. Me either.

The Tourist said:
Please disconnect my account

I'm delighted to oblige.

The Tourist said:
I no longer wish to be associated with you.

That's absolutely mutual.

Yorkist · Apr 19, 2012

I don't think I have to post how I feel about this, but I'll say one other thing: it's idiotic.

I'm not a Catholic (but I am pro-nun) and I don't want to offend anybody, but here goes. I was reading the other day about the French Revolution and how ticked off women got about the Enlightenment anti-Catholicism push, and how women are generally more attached to their Catholicism (at least historically) than men are. There's something the Catholic church has for women that mainline American protestant churches just don't: a role in the narrative. And Mary is simultaneously a young maid, a mother, and an older woman. Look at her three most important moments in the story - she's a girl when she is approached by the archangel, she's a mother when she births Jesus, she's an older woman when Jesus dies. That allows women to experience the religion on a more intimate level, I think. And it's powerful stuff. It speaks to me even though I'm not Catholic.

It is for this reason that I think this move is catastrophically stupid. You don't want to mess with women's relationship to the church. I think Catholic women are going to get pissed about this. I hope so.

Plot Device said:
In all honest, I was merely derailing the thread (not intentionally) due to my endlessly tangent-addled brain.

It was an awesome tangent.

BenPanced · Apr 19, 2012

The Tourist said:
I don't think we're a good fit, and my freedoms mean more to me than any forum. Please disconnect my account, I no longer wish to be associated with you.

7.5 on the Flounce-o-Meter[sup]TM[/sup], if only for the misuse of "disconnect".

Opty · Apr 19, 2012

BenPanced said:
7.5 on the Flounce-o-Meter[sup]TM[/sup], if only for the misuse of "disconnect".

Agreed. It needed more cowbell.

Marya · Apr 19, 2012

Yorkist, what you say resonates with me because Marian devotion is often misunderstood but is felt to be hugely important out here, especially in Angola and Mozambique where voudoun and folk Catholicism have fused over 300 years of Poruguese colonialism. Many younger nuns feel very strongly about indigenisation and rituals involving homage to the ancestors and Mary as mediating with the ancestors and saints. The image of Mary as crone, a wise maternal figure who protects women and children, is often found in voudoun temples as well as in mission churches.

The mission church legacy is problematic -- everyone knows that and compliance with Western churches and bishops is understood to be mandatory if funding is to continue for education and medical care (Caritas, a major Catholic charity, has enormous influence and spends a great deal in Africa). What many African Catholics do is to give lip service to church authorities and ignore Catholic dogmas and strictures as far as possible.

Most women religious out here feel they are walking a tightrope -- if Rome pushes too far, they may be forced to leave. The loss is incalculable.

Solunar · Apr 19, 2012

So, is there anything anyone can do to get them to stop picking on nuns? Write to the pope?

I must say, I didn't know America geographically separated their leaders of government and finance. That was really educational.

Alan Yee · Apr 19, 2012

Plot Device said:
Not that the Fathers didn't see that other possibility and try to prevent it. One of the first things they did after 1789 (after the Constitution was ratified and adopted) was to mandate that ALL state capitols in each of the 13 new states be situated in cities that were NOT the key financial cities of each state.

I really didn't know that before. Thanks for posting this. I've always wondered why Olympia was made the state capital here in Washington instead of Seattle.

Alan Yee · Apr 19, 2012

We talked about this in my Women's Studies class today, thanks to another student who brought a copy of the news article about this to class. Our professor pointed out that for every reference to sexual "sins" in the Bible, there are probably at least five more references to poverty and the moral obligation for Christians to help those in need, particularly the poor.

While I was never Catholic and no longer identify as Methodist or a member of any other Christian denomination (not exactly sure what I believe at this point in my life), I have so much respect for the nuns who devote their lives to their God and to helping the poor. I have very little respect for the leaders in the Catholic hierarchy who want them to abandon all the good they're doing to waste their time talking about abortion, birth control, and same-sex marriage, none of which Jesus ever even talked about in the Gospels.

blacbird · Apr 20, 2012

Mel Gibson is probably loving this. Not to mention Rick Santorum.

caw

RichardGarfinkle · Apr 20, 2012

I haven't seen a lot of flounces, but that one was pretty predictable.

I'm sorry for the nuns. It's awful to have ones dedication challenged and twisted away from its purpose. To give your life to something and be told that you are suddenly no longer the dedicated solution but part of the problem.

There's something I've been wondering about from a very outside perspective. Does anyone who knows the situation think it possible that some sizable part of the Catholic Community in America might break away from the Church?

Teinz · Apr 20, 2012

I wonder why the Vatican decided to implement this crackdown. I don't believe they're stupid, nor do I believe Pope Benedict to be a stupid man.

They knew how this would pan out before they enacted it. The outrage from the secular community, moderate Catholics and, most importantly, nuns themselves.

Then why would they take this step? Maybe because they know that for every cry of outrage, there are three silent nods of agreement? Maybe they recognize better than we do, that there is still a large portion of the population which agrees with and tries to adhere to anything that comes out of the Holy See?

I don't know, maybe we are witnessing the death throes of a religious entity, determined to uphold the old ways. Maybe we underestimate what they understand about the hunger for God that still resides within most of us.

Zoombie · Apr 20, 2012

Teinz said:
I don't know, maybe we are witnessing the death throes of a religious entity, determined to uphold the old ways. Maybe we underestimate what they understand about the hunger for God that still resides within most of us.

I doubt it.

But that's my job, I'm an optimist. And if they really want a cultural scrape, I'm more than willing to keep up the match.

RichardGarfinkle · Apr 20, 2012

Chrissy said:
Not to mention that there are few (any?) other employers with the kind of funding that houses and feeds nuns and allows them to dedicate their lives to serving the poor.

There was a nun interviewed via telephone on the news earlier; she said she didn't want to go around vocalizing Catholic views on abortion or birth control or any of that. She wanted to help the poor, like Jesus said. Period.

As I recall, Jesus wasn't political at all (except to denounce the ruling church leaders of the time, the Pharisees.) The Vactican should be lifting up these nuns as examples of the truest followers of Christ.

I don't want to drop a derail on this thread. But the Pharisees get a bum rap. They were the more open liberal wing of Jewish authority at the time. The Sadducees were the reactionaries.

The Pharisees are at the root of post Diaspora Judaism which was an incredibly difficult time and transition.

I don't want to be too much of a pain about this, but standard Christian history about the time of Christ has a number of elements in it that are, shall we say, divergent from Judaic history of the same time.

The Wikipedia entry on the Pharisees is okay. There's a lot more to learn elsewhere obviously.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharisees

Priene · Apr 20, 2012

Medievalist said:
If you're not confirmed in the blessed mother church, you're not Catholic.

You become a Catholic at baptism, not confirmation.

From catholic.com

A person who is baptized in the Catholic Church becomes a Catholic at that moment. One’s initiation is deepened by confirmation and the Eucharist, but one becomes a Catholic at baptism.

Alessandra Kelley · Apr 20, 2012

Priene said:
You become a Catholic at baptism, not confirmation.

From catholic.com

True, although the person in question never said he was baptized, only that his mother was Catholic.

Alessandra Kelley · Apr 20, 2012

The Tourist said:
I don't think we're a good fit, and my freedoms mean more to me than any forum. Please disconnect my account, I no longer wish to be associated with you.

I give it a 5 on the Flounce-o-meter, for "you can't fire me, I quit." Furthermore, I'm not sure I care for the self-implied reasons for that person's personality traits, since the bikers and gun owners and lapsed or vaguely related Catholics and bipolar people and old people and people on government assistance I am acquainted with are reasonably polite in their interactions.

Chrissy · Apr 20, 2012

RichardGarfinkle said:
I don't want to drop a derail on this thread. But the Pharisees get a bum rap. They were the more open liberal wing of Jewish authority at the time. The Sadducees were the reactionaries.

The Pharisees are at the root of post Diaspora Judaism which was an incredibly difficult time and transition.

I don't want to be too much of a pain about this, but standard Christian history about the time of Christ has a number of elements in it that are, shall we say, divergent from Judaic history of the same time.

The Wikipedia entry on the Pharisees is okay. There's a lot more to learn elsewhere obviously.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharisees

The thread is about Catholicism, which is about Christianity. My original post was in regard to that religion. Nothing to do with knocking Judaism.

Jesus condemned the Pharisees and the Saducees. Precisely because politics had no place in religion, or vice versa. They were attempting to control and block access to God. Human beings in control of religion inevitably corrupt and detract from the true purpose of faith and belief and relationship with God. I think the Pope is a great example. (No offense to Pope followers.)

Dude, wikipedia? I use the Bible. You know, the one with the red-print?

http://www.biblelookup.com/cgi-bin/pbible.pl?maxhits=10&mode=context&corpus=nt&from=&to=&step=5&searchstring=woe+unto+you&version=kjv&searchtype=find&boolop=exact&subs=+Next++%3E

But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Woe unto you, [ye] blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men's] bones, and of all uncleanness.

ETA: it's worth noting that this is the only time Jesus ever got pissed off; this and when the "money changers" were in the temple.

MattW · Apr 20, 2012

RichardGarfinkle said:
Does anyone who knows the situation think it possible that some sizable part of the Catholic Community in America might break away from the Church?

The Catholic community ebbs and flows with official doctrine, and as American society becomes more progressive in thought and tolerance, so too will the Catholic lay community.

Eventually there might even be a shift in the ordained American Church leaders, but it might not happen for a generation or two - the Roman old guard is ultra-conservative, they write the rules of who gets in and who gets advanced, and they are long-lived.*

We'll see an African pope before we see a liberal pope.

* Not that there aren't great priests - I've known a few, and had a bishop in the family.

Alessandra Kelley · Apr 20, 2012

Marya said:
This censure has ominous implications for women's religious orders working here in Africa as well as in Latin America, since many women religious have been influenced by liberation theologies and work alongside secular political groupings pushing for transformation. Risky, under-funded and demanding work nobody else is prepared to do.

I'm hoping the Leadership Conference of Women Religious (and especially the Sisters of Mercy and the Catholic Health Association and Network which lobbies for social justice) fights back and demands more autonomy from the Vatican. But Rome isn't listening and I suspect draconian measures will follow.

And on top of this, the Vatican's key priority right now is welcoming the ultra-traditionalist SSPX (Society of Saint Pius X) back into the fold. More Tridentine Masses and jackboots.

Liberation theology, wow ...

I have some very good seminarian friends who are livid about what happened to Liberation theology.

From what I understand, Liberation theology developed in Latin America in the 1960s, and was essentially Christian charity for the poor and oppressed and trying to improve their lives as it was believed Jesus would do.

The Wikipedia page on Liberation theology is pretty good:

Liberation theology is a political movement in Christian theology which interprets the teachings of Jesus Christ in terms of a liberation from unjust economic, political, or social conditions. It has been described by proponents as "an interpretation of Christian faith through the poor's suffering, their struggle and hope, and a critique of society and the Catholic faith and Christianity through the eyes of the poor"...

And, no surprise, nuns were heavily involved in this support and succor for the poor.

This unfortunately ran against the interests of the Latin American moneyed, oligarchs and dictators, and the rich and powerful.

Here's where it gets bizarre.

Those oligarchs, dictators, and wealthy were by and large ultra-conservative right-wingers, and consequently anti-Communist. Because of this they were propped up by the US and the Catholic hierarchy, no matter how many atrocities they committed against their own impoverished people.

Here's the rest of that quote from Wikipedia above:

... and by detractors as Christianized Marxism

This was a strange charge, particularly since nonviolence was one of the central tenets of Liberation theology. (Some quotes in this paper are from Sister Ita Ford and Archbishop Oscar Romero, both of whom were murdered by right-wing forces.)

In 1984 and 1986, the Inquisition (renamed the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, or CDF, in 1965), under the direction of Cardinal Ratzinger, who is now the Pope, came down on Liberation theology like the wrath of god. (The link is to its actual statement).

So, to sum up:

*Liberation theology is about comfort and hope for the poor.

*Its proponents, including nuns and archbishops, were labeled Marxists and systematically murdered by the militias of the right-wing rich and powerful.

*The Vatican expressed support for this.

The current Pope, when he ran the Inquisition, personally, willfully, and directly crushed the hopes of the Latin American poor and oppressed and condoned the murder of nuns and archbishops.

Why would he scruple to oppress nuns now?

Vatican Orders Crackdown On American Nuns

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