Like Tolkien/Martin/etc., but France instead of the U.K.

Status
Not open for further replies.

Yorkist

Banned
Joined
Feb 10, 2012
Messages
1,974
Reaction score
572
Location
Navigating through the thorns.
OK, so I'm not a huge fan of reading Tolkien because I think his characters are as boring as watching paint dry, but one thing that he did that was really cool was create a... mythos (though that may not be the right word) that united the U.K. At least, that's how I see it: Men = English, Elves = Welsh, Dwarfs = Scots, Hobbits = Irish. Obviously these are metaphors (I don't want to offend any U.K. folk!), but how I see it is that he basically took these different cultures and created parallels for them within the framework of their own folklore and history. Genius. Personally, I think that's why his work is so resonant and used as a framework for so much fantasy since. And I think that George R.R. Martin does much of the same thing in ASOIAF, same culture (U.K., plus Targaryens = Normans), though totally inventive (and much darker). And, actually, Susanna Clark may have done the same thing, but for a different era and with humor... Anyway.

I don't want to start an argument about this because this is just the way I see it, perhaps due to the fact that what I find most interesting and engaging about the fantasy genre is its historical folklorism (yeah, I just made up a word). And if you don't see it that way, that's totally fine.

Sooo, are there seminal works like this, but for France instead of the U.K.? If so I want to read them; I need the background.

I'd been trying to write a novel that had a WW1 analogue as a narrative framework, but I keep making all my characters French-ish, and loosely basing characters on, like, Marie Antoinette and Eleanor of Aquitaine, and basing cultures on those of the Langue d'oc and, okay, you get the idea. The plot is swiftly becoming, ah, not a WW1 analogue at all, but rather something like a combo of the French Revolution and the French medieval period and, well, some other things.

Oh, and since Spain may feature as well, same goes for fantasy with Spanish culture/history/folklore/etc. as narrative framework/inspiration/etc. You guys know of any fantasy based on that?

This post was far longer than it had to be, but I've had a long day, lol.
 

Anne Lyle

Fantastic historian
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 23, 2007
Messages
3,469
Reaction score
397
Location
Cambridge, UK. Or 1590s London. Some days it's har
Website
www.annelyle.com
Not so much with the folklore, but The Curse of Chalion by Lois McMaster Bujold is a secondary-world fantasy loosely based on late medieval Spain. And many of Guy Gavriel Kay's books are likewise analogues of historical settings, e.g. A Song for Arbonne, based on medieval Provence.
 

maxmordon

Penúltimo
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 12, 2007
Messages
11,536
Reaction score
2,479
Location
Venezuela
Website
twitter.com
I can only think of explicitly two examples: Kushiel's Legacy for France and The Lions of Al-Rassan for Spain.
 

Yorkist

Banned
Joined
Feb 10, 2012
Messages
1,974
Reaction score
572
Location
Navigating through the thorns.
A Song for Arbonne, based on medieval Provence.

OoooOOoooo! The Languedoc! Just read summaries, and this looks right up my book-reading alley as well as being pertinent.

I can only think of explicitly two examples: Kushiel's Legacy for France

And this looks a bit similar in terms of my world-building and character archetypes as well.

You guys are awesome, thank you!

ETA: One very cool thing that Tolkien created were the Ents. I mean, dryads (is that the word?) are present in many culture's mythologies, but the Ents are like a personification of Wales' forests. Early military forays into Welsh territory by the English led to a lot of dead Brits because the trees hid the Welsh so well; so even though their numbers were much smaller, they usually massacred the English using effective ambushing tactics, using their creepy ass forests. Welsh = elves, Welsh forests = Ents; and the elves gave the Ents consciousness. Tolkien took the landscape/history and anthropomorphized it into a race of characters. (This is probably SFF 101 for most of you, but as I usually do mainstream/contemporary, I'm new to looking at fiction in terms of genre.) I wonder all the ways this sort of thing - doesn't have to be the landscape specifically, but material aspects to the region or aspects of their folklore - has been done for France in the past, or could be done in the future. Hmm, gears are churning!
 
Last edited:

Dave Hardy

Don't let your deal go down,
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 19, 2011
Messages
959
Reaction score
87
Location
'Til your last gold dollar is gone.
Well, if you want to wind back further, think of the Matter of France as a parallel to the Matter of Britain. For that you need Charlemagne, Roland, William of Orange (not the Dutch one), Huon of Bordeaux, and some others.

This has been a big influence on European tradition and literature. Orlando and Rinaldo are common currency in Italian folklore, whether as literature or even puppetry. Those tales in turn impacted Italian cinema, especially the Spaghetti Westerns, looping Medieval tales back into a Europeanized version of American myth.

I've heard that in the sertao of Brazil, the itenerant minstrels (payadores?) sing the tales of El Cid's battles with the Moors accompanied on guitar. I can only imagine El Cid returning as a nordestino battling Moorish jaguncos.

Michael Moorcock wove a lot of Roland references into the Elric tales. He took it a step further in the Hawkmmon stories where the German hero and his French allies fight off a psychotic totalitarian Britain bent on conquering the European mainland.
 

Darkshore

Stranger
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
Messages
1,001
Reaction score
63
You're forgetting one big thing though. Tolkien was adamant that The Lord of The Rings was not an allegory in any sense. So while it makes complete and total sense and maybe he was doing so subconsciously, he really didn't mean for it to reflect the real world.
 

Yorkist

Banned
Joined
Feb 10, 2012
Messages
1,974
Reaction score
572
Location
Navigating through the thorns.
You're forgetting one big thing though. Tolkien was adamant that The Lord of The Rings was not an allegory in any sense. So while it makes complete and total sense and maybe he was doing so subconsciously, he really didn't mean for it to reflect the real world.

Frankly, it doesn't matter; authorial intent is irrelevant. And I did say mythos, not allegory. I know a lot of people talk about it as a WW2 allegory/analogue or whatever, and I don't think that's true. But did he create a mythos? Undoubtedly. Does it reflect the culture/folklore/history of the entire British isles? Absolutely. Did he do it consciously or unconsciously? Who cares? That says more about how he plots than it does about the work itself. Art stands alone. :)

Well, if you want to wind back further, think of the Matter of France as a parallel to the Matter of Britain. For that you need Charlemagne, Roland, William of Orange (not the Dutch one), Huon of Bordeaux, and some others.

While Charlemagne and The Song of Roland are on my mental backburner (and of course, have to be symbolically represented in some way), this is the boring part of history and culture for me. Not enough chicks. Or sex, or intrigue, or darkness, or any other fun stuff. Knights and courtly love and heroes, zzz. I'm doing something closer to the 17th-18th century than early medieval/dark ages, anyhoo, excepting the langue d'oc and the langue d'oil as separate entities, more or less. Or, perhaps collapsing aspects of the 14th through 18th centuries into one, but with 18th century technology. OK, I don't really know, moving right along...
 
Last edited:

RichardGarfinkle

Nurture Phoenixes
Staff member
Moderator
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 2, 2012
Messages
11,176
Reaction score
3,198
Location
Walking the Underworld
Website
www.richardgarfinkle.com
Have you read the Orlando Furioso? It was written around 1516 by Ariosto. There's a Penguin edition. It is as over the top as the most extreme modern fantasy and has all the adventure, magic, romance, and violence one could want. It's also pretty long. The Orlando of the title is Roland.

As a through-away it forms a link in a petty little pleaure of mine, the thesis that some stories never end in this case the story of the Trojan war.

In the Orlando Furioso, Orlando's magic sword Durandana is actually the sword of Hector (yes, the Trojan Hector). In reality this would be a rotted lump of useless bronze, but it's powered by the raw cool of its Trojanness (yes, those renaissance writers loved them Trojans (yes, I know I'm leaving joke space open)).

Anyway, later on in French folklore Joan of Arc supposedly found and used Roland's Sword.

Joan was canonized in 1920. So if you connect the dots, the most recent event tiable to the Trojan War was less than 100 years ago.

So much for my hobbies.
 

thothguard51

A Gentleman of a refined age...
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 16, 2009
Messages
9,316
Reaction score
1,064
Age
72
Location
Out side the beltway...
Bernard Cornwell, historical fiction, The Archer series.

About an English archer searching for the Holy Grail. Most of the stories takes place in France and he paints both the English and French in a fairly negative light, The time period is around 1300 I believe.
 

Yorkist

Banned
Joined
Feb 10, 2012
Messages
1,974
Reaction score
572
Location
Navigating through the thorns.
Have you read the Orlando Furioso? It was written around 1516 by Ariosto. There's a Penguin edition. It is as over the top as the most extreme modern fantasy and has all the adventure, magic, romance, and violence one could want. It's also pretty long. The Orlando of the title is Roland.

As a through-away it forms a link in a petty little pleaure of mine, the thesis that some stories never end in this case the story of the Trojan war.

In the Orlando Furioso, Orlando's magic sword Durandana is actually the sword of Hector (yes, the Trojan Hector). In reality this would be a rotted lump of useless bronze, but it's powered by the raw cool of its Trojanness (yes, those renaissance writers loved them Trojans (yes, I know I'm leaving joke space open)).

Anyway, later on in French folklore Joan of Arc supposedly found and used Roland's Sword.

Joan was canonized in 1920. So if you connect the dots, the most recent event tiable to the Trojan War was less than 100 years ago.

So much for my hobbies.

Thank you. Joan of Arc and Hector? This sounds like such epic pwnage that I can't help but try to riff on it. Gotta figure out how to replace "sword" with something, ah, less swordfighty, and perhaps less concrete, and rethink religion and history and culture and everything as it relates, and I am so there. Squee! The general idea of this mythos as a history fits in so well with what I've plotted so far, and the character arcs and themes. And Joan of Arc. And Hector. Swoon.

By the way, of course the sword is imbued with Trojan coolness powah. Haha, Hector was my second fictional crush - read one of those simple novelizations of the Iliad when I was a kid. I was always on the Trojans' side. So yeah, Hector's sword, snicker.

Anyway, I like your analysis about the story of the Iliad never truly ending.
 

maxmordon

Penúltimo
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 12, 2007
Messages
11,536
Reaction score
2,479
Location
Venezuela
Website
twitter.com
Yeah, but Yorkist also asked about Spanish settings and wondered what time period was she seeking. (Visogothic, Reconquista, Siglo de Oro)
 

Yorkist

Banned
Joined
Feb 10, 2012
Messages
1,974
Reaction score
572
Location
Navigating through the thorns.
Appreciate it, Max. I dunno if the Spanish will even figure in (s***, I forgot all about the Merovingian kings, that's a whole 'nother bag of nuts), but thanks.

Time period I'm going for is definitely 17th-18th century, but folklore, culture, and history from all times may work into it. I'm not going for a direct historical analogue.
 

Darkshore

Stranger
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
Messages
1,001
Reaction score
63
Just felt the need to state it. I agree with you though. I suppose I should have made that more clear...Sorry if it came off preachy. :D
 

Yorkist

Banned
Joined
Feb 10, 2012
Messages
1,974
Reaction score
572
Location
Navigating through the thorns.
Just felt the need to state it. I agree with you though. I suppose I should have made that more clear...Sorry if it came off preachy. :D

Oh, no problem, I get what you're saying. I just have little patience with that authorial attitude: "It wasn't inspired by anything, it's just magic." Yeah, just because it's intuitive doesn't make it not exist. For myself, some parts of writing tend to be intuitive (character, conflict), some are quite conscious (plotting), and some are a mixture of both (structure, setting). Others work differently. But this is just the how, it's not the what or the why.

But I'm quite critical and have the soul of a tenth grade English teacher, so there ya go.

Anyway. Just found something cool:

The Quinotaur (Lat. Quinotaurus) is a mythical sea creature mentioned in the 7th century Frankish Chronicle of Fredegar. Referred to as "bestea Neptuni Quinotauri similis",[1] (the beast of Neptune which resembles a Quinotaur) it was held to have fathered Meroveus by attacking the wife of the Frankish king Chlodio and thus to have sired the line of Merovingian kings.
 

jjdebenedictis

is watching you via her avatar
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 25, 2010
Messages
7,063
Reaction score
1,642
Although he's already been mentioned, I'll just note that Guy Gavriel Kay does this a lot (and oh-so-well; he's one of my favourite authors.) Under Heaven, Last Light of the Sun, Sailing to Sarantium, A Song for Arbonne, The Lions of Al Rassan, Tigana... You can figure out what part of the world he's mirroring in all of these.
 

alimay

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 6, 2012
Messages
94
Reaction score
6
The Golden Key by Melanie Rawn, Jennifer Roberson and Kate Elliott was set in an alternate version of Spain, and featured characters from other countries.

Ali
 

Manuel Royal

Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 31, 2009
Messages
4,484
Reaction score
437
Location
Atlanta, Georgia
Website
donnetowntoday.blogspot.com
In the Orlando Furioso, Orlando's magic sword Durandana is actually the sword of Hector (yes, the Trojan Hector). In reality this would be a rotted lump of useless bronze, but it's powered by the raw cool of its Trojanness (yes, those renaissance writers loved them Trojans (yes, I know I'm leaving joke space open)).
That is awesome. I've never read Ariosto's masterpiece (on my B&N Wish List), though I did read the Pratt/de Camp "Incomplete Enchanter" story based on it. Incidentally, a bronze artifact can theoretically last millions of years.

Just wanted to mention (in regards to fantasy versions of France), among more recent works, C.L. Moore's Jirel of Joiry stories, and James Branch Cabell's Poictesme stories. (I think that's pronounced "Pwa-teem".)
 

RichardGarfinkle

Nurture Phoenixes
Staff member
Moderator
Kind Benefactor
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 2, 2012
Messages
11,176
Reaction score
3,198
Location
Walking the Underworld
Website
www.richardgarfinkle.com
That is awesome. I've never read Ariosto's masterpiece (on my B&N Wish List), though I did read the Pratt/de Camp "Incomplete Enchanter" story based on it. Incidentally, a bronze artifact can theoretically last millions of years.

Just wanted to mention (in regards to fantasy versions of France), among more recent works, C.L. Moore's Jirel of Joiry stories, and James Branch Cabell's Poictesme stories. (I think that's pronounced "Pwa-teem".)

To blow any scholarly cred I might have, it was the Incomplete Enchanter and its sequels that led me to the Orlando Furioso. It also led me to the Faerie Queene which I would not recommend to anyone even another insomniac in desperate need of a soporific.
 

morrbee

Registered
Joined
Apr 10, 2012
Messages
20
Reaction score
1
Location
Oxfordshire, UK
Frankly, it doesn't matter; authorial intent is irrelevant. And I did say mythos, not allegory. I know a lot of people talk about it as a WW2 allegory/analogue or whatever, and I don't think that's true. But did he create a mythos? Undoubtedly. Does it reflect the culture/folklore/history of the entire British isles? Absolutely. Did he do it consciously or unconsciously? Who cares? That says more about how he plots than it does about the work itself. Art stands alone. :)

I really don't want to derail this thread, but given the fact that, the beginning of the Fourth Age (at the end of the LOTR trilogy) is supposed to start the 'Dominion of Men [the English]', I can't help but take your reading as a bit racist.

I'm sure this wasn't your intention: I'm just suggesting that your interpretation is perhaps a little flawed.
 

Yorkist

Banned
Joined
Feb 10, 2012
Messages
1,974
Reaction score
572
Location
Navigating through the thorns.
I really don't want to derail this thread, but given the fact that, the beginning of the Fourth Age (at the end of the LOTR trilogy) is supposed to start the 'Dominion of Men [the English]', I can't help but take your reading as a bit racist.

I'm sure this wasn't your intention: I'm just suggesting that your interpretation is perhaps a little flawed.

Eh, no. Because, see, I'm not making the argument that it's a direct historical analogue/allegory. I'm making the argument that it's a mythos - or a mythology - loosely inspired by a real place, its real cultures, its real landscapes, and its real folklore. The plot has zilch to do with real UK history IMO; I'm just talking about the world aspects. If I was talking about plot and/or history, I'd be thinking, hey, where's Dafydd ap Gruffyd and that bastard Edward Longshanks? But that's not what I'm talking about, at all. The connections are loose (I mean, Welsh people are not willowy blonde totems of wisdom, duh) and mostly superficial, but they're there IMO. I mean, it just makes sense that if you're creating a mythology, you're going to use some cues from the world you know, whether consciously or unconsciously.

I mean, you don't have to agree with my "interpretation" (and it's really just thoughts about LOTR as folklorism, not so much an interpretation), of course, but I'm not the first person who's thought of it, I'm sure.

And I don't think Tolkien is racist for that. All the races have individual characters of equal strength, nuance, etc. (at least if you take his work as a whole); they receive pretty much equal respect IIRC (again, taking his work as a whole). And again, it's not a direct historical analogue or anything like that. But if you look at the landscapes that all of the races live in, you can see it. The shire? Craggy mountains? Mysterious forests?

I think the Orcs are... problematic, however.

Anyway, it's a thread derail, but it doesn't matter. Though mostly I'm just looking at it through a folklorist lens. I'm finding worldbuilding boring as hell, except for the folklore part.

Thank everyone again for all the book recommendations. I will begin reading them as soon as I'm done with my current book.
 

Yorkist

Banned
Joined
Feb 10, 2012
Messages
1,974
Reaction score
572
Location
Navigating through the thorns.
In...what way, exactly?

Think about where they live, dude. The Shire. What's that other name for Ireland again? The Emerald Isle or something like that? Do you not see any resemblance?

Anyway, this is all really beside the point. I should've known better than to bring up Tolkien here, and TBH I don't even like Tolkien (please don't hate me). But I love folklore and mythos in general, and that's what he created, and yeah, I see a lot of the U.K. as a whole in there. That's the extent of my interest.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.