Be Kind to Indies!

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JustJas

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I have just received my first bad review for my very first indie short story (the words "unbelievably retarded" figured prominently in it, so you get the idea).

It's really made me question why people feel the need to get so nasty on Amazon and if it has gone too far. At the moment it's Lord of the Flies out there and it seems to be particularly bad for indie authors.

This is only partly sour grapes talking. I've been wondering for a while if people need to realize that many indie authors are hobbyists and stop holding them to the same standards as traditionally published authors, particularly when we are giving our work away for free. Should readers be a little more kinder and lenient towards indie amateurs, or should every author be held to the same standards?

(I've written about this in greater length in my blog entry Indies Are People Too! if you're interested).
 

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First, it's entirely inappropriate for your reviewer to have used the phrase "unbelievably retarded". That's nasty in a couple of ways, and in your place I'd consider reporting the review to Amazon (if that's where it is) as abusive.

Second: while many people use the term "traditional publishing" it's not accurate. "Trade publishing" is more appropriate and yes, I know I'm nitpicking but it's an important point. As for "indie author"--why not call yourself "self-published author", which would be understood by a wider audience?

As for the main drive of your comment: where to start?

I'd find it patronising in the extreme if a book of mine were given a good review when it didn't deserve it just because of the way I'd chosen to publish it.

You're suggesting that self-published books can never be as good as trade published books and so shouldn't be held to the same standards.

You're suggesting that self-published writers shouldn't be expected to be professional or competent at what they do.

You're implying that it's acceptable to be rude about trade-published titles, but not about self-published titles.

There's a reason that self-published books tend to get more negative reviews than books from trade publishers: they're usually horribly bad, and trade-published books are usually much better. Expecting reviewers to be more lenient when reviewing self-published books isn't going to resolve anything: encouraging self-published writers to up their game might help.
 

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I'm sorry to sound harsh, but if you expect someone to invest precious time (even if not money) in your work, then you have to accept that some will write reviews.

It's not the job of readers to cut slack for less-than-professional work. If hobbyists don't want to be held to the same standards as professionals, they shouldn't put their work out there in the first place. How exactly do you expect readers to distinguish hobbyists from professionals, anyway? Work that's been published is expected by readers to be of a publishable standard.

Also? Authors should really stop telling readers how to give reviews.
 

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Seconding just about everything OH said.

And yes, even though the review was unkind (and unprofessional) it IS sour grapes talking. I would refrain from speaking about poor reviews in public. Even if you are in the right... it tends to make the author look like a whiner. (Sorry)

These are the seeds which germinate many an internet meltdown. If, for example, the reviewer finds that you've been griping about their review all they would have to do is blog about it, or link this post back in your Goodreads review or edit the Amazon review...

Then you become THAT author. The one with the small name/big ego who can't take criticism.

Tread very, very lightly here.
 

Deleted member 42

I've been wondering for a while if people need to realize that many indie authors are hobbyists and stop holding them to the same standards as traditionally published authors, particularly when we are giving our work away for free.

I'd be happy if amateurs and hobbyists would stop misusing terms of art with hundreds of years of professional use. To wit:

1. You're not indie published; you're self-published.

2. Traditional publishing is a meaningless phrase used by people who don't know what they are talking about. Publishing has a three thousand year history related to the professional production and distribution of books. The phrase you want is trade publishing or commercial publishing.

3. Writers aren't doing readers a favor by giving away their work; readers are doing writers a favor by being willing to read the work. There are far more books than there are people willing to read them.

4. Complaining about a review is entirely inappropriate. Yes, the remarks were uncalled for, and hurtful, but you have embarked on the painful trail of The Author's Big Mistake. Be glad you have a reader.
 

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That's a really harsh review and the callous use of "retarded" to mean subpar just sets on my teeth on edge.

But here is the thing: When you choose to publish your works, you are inviting others to review them. When you offer your writing for payment, you are holding yourself out as a professional, indie, self-pubbed or traditionally pubbed. Arguing about how others view your work is self-defeating and unprofessional.

It hurts. Acknowledge the pain. Use it as a motivator to make your next work even better. Vent to someone close to you, but don't do it online where the words can come back to haunt you. Then, let go of the review.
 

JustJas

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I do see where all of you are coming from, particularly in regards to it being extremely patronizing if self-pubbed books aren't held to the same standards. Of course there are many self-pubbed books out there which are excellent and indistiguishable from trade published books and all authors should aspire to meet the highest standards.

I'm not even sure what my point is here to be honest. We are currently in a very interesting place with publishing and I think the slow but steady erosion of the traditional gatekeepers who policied quality in the past is causing some angst and frustration amongst readers. This seems to be leading to a bit of a nasty culture on Amazon where comments that would have once been unacceptable are now common as readers vent their frustration on authors who have disappointed them.

On reflection I guess each book just has to be judged on its own merits and fight for its survival in the jungle, but I personally wish things were a bit more civilized out there...I know, I know, authors need to but out when it comes to reviews and leave it to the readers to decide. Personally I'll never give another hatchet job review again as long as I live, but once you put your work out there you just have to accept what you get and deal with it. Point taken. Thank you for the wise words.
 
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JanDarby

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I haven't read the review, so I'm not commenting on that, but on the theory of "being kind" to someone in a commercial endeavor.

I try to be kind to new authors who are learning their craft in the context of entering contests and getting feedback, and need encouragement to continue what they're doing well and to learn how to fix what they're not doing so well. Once the work is put up for sale, though, that's the end of any special consideration.

I don't advocate being mean to anyone or any entity, either. But no one would suggest "being kind" to, say, Ford Motor Company when it sold the Pinto (that's the infamous model, isn't it?) that exploded and killed people. And you wouldn't "be kind" to the company that sold you any sort of product just because it was new; if it didn't work, you would say so, rather than, "oh, well, it's just a start-up company, and so what if the product didn't do what it promised to do?" Or if you went to a lawyer and she gave you the wrong advice, and you acted on it and got sued, you wouldn't think, "oh, well, she's just starting out, so I should be nice to her."

Professionals are held to professional standards. A writer who puts her book up for sale is laying claim to the professional label. That means, no personal insults, but also no special consideration.
 

Soccer Mom

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Good for you, JusJas! Moving on is the right thin. It really is painful though. We've all been there with the bad review. Have a good cry, some chocolate, go for a long run, whatever helps.
 

WackAMole

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2. Traditional publishing is a meaningless phrase used by people who don't know what they are talking about. Publishing has a three thousand year history related to the professional production and distribution of books. The phrase you want is trade publishing or commercial publishing.

3. Writers aren't doing readers a favor by giving away their work; readers are doing writers a favor by being willing to read the work. There are far more books than there are people willing to read them.

Interesting point. I'm one of those guilty people who could be accused of throwing around the word 'traditional publishing' without a clear understanding of the word. Was interesting to read what you said. Thanks.

Lastly, I totally agree with you. Readers are doing us a favor not the other way around.
 

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Of course there are many self-pubbed books out there which are excellent and indistiguishable from trade published books

Many? Not really.

We are currently in a very interesting place with publishing and I think the disappearance of the traditional gatekeepers who policied quality in the past is causing some angst and frustration amongst readers.

The traditional gatekeepers aren't disappearing, there are just more people bypassing them. Which is fine, but then readers are going to notice the difference.

This seems to be leading to a bit of a nasty culture on Amazon where comments that would have once been unacceptable are now common as readers vent their frustration on authors who have disappointed them.

They do this to commercially published authors as well.
 

JustJas

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I haven't read the review, so I'm not commenting on that, but on the theory of "being kind" to someone in a commercial endeavor.

I try to be kind to new authors who are learning their craft in the context of entering contests and getting feedback, and need encouragement to continue what they're doing well and to learn how to fix what they're not doing so well. Once the work is put up for sale, though, that's the end of any special consideration.

I don't advocate being mean to anyone or any entity, either. But no one would suggest "being kind" to, say, Ford Motor Company when it sold the Pinto (that's the infamous model, isn't it?) that exploded and killed people. And you wouldn't "be kind" to the company that sold you any sort of product just because it was new; if it didn't work, you would say so, rather than, "oh, well, it's just a start-up company, and so what if the product didn't do what it promised to do?" Or if you went to a lawyer and she gave you the wrong advice, and you acted on it and got sued, you wouldn't think, "oh, well, she's just starting out, so I should be nice to her."

Professionals are held to professional standards. A writer who puts her book up for sale is laying claim to the professional label. That means, no personal insults, but also no special consideration.

By kind I really just meant constructive rather than completely negative or derrogatory because it can make a world of difference to someone.
 

JustJas

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Good for you, JusJas! Moving on is the right thin. It really is painful though. We've all been there with the bad review. Have a good cry, some chocolate, go for a long run, whatever helps.

Thanks, Soccer Mom :)
 

c.m.n.

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Unfortunately, it's becoming more common place for readers to post nasty reviews through internet means, whether Amazon or Goodreads or other sites, no matter if the author is self-published or trade published.

The best thing to do is stew and walk away, instead of talking about it in public.
 

kaitie

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I haven't read the review, so I'm not commenting on that, but on the theory of "being kind" to someone in a commercial endeavor.

I try to be kind to new authors who are learning their craft in the context of entering contests and getting feedback, and need encouragement to continue what they're doing well and to learn how to fix what they're not doing so well. Once the work is put up for sale, though, that's the end of any special consideration.

I don't advocate being mean to anyone or any entity, either. But no one would suggest "being kind" to, say, Ford Motor Company when it sold the Pinto (that's the infamous model, isn't it?) that exploded and killed people. And you wouldn't "be kind" to the company that sold you any sort of product just because it was new; if it didn't work, you would say so, rather than, "oh, well, it's just a start-up company, and so what if the product didn't do what it promised to do?" Or if you went to a lawyer and she gave you the wrong advice, and you acted on it and got sued, you wouldn't think, "oh, well, she's just starting out, so I should be nice to her."

Professionals are held to professional standards. A writer who puts her book up for sale is laying claim to the professional label. That means, no personal insults, but also no special consideration.

I agree with this 100%.
 

WackAMole

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I agree 100 percent that once you make the choice to publish, you are no longer subject to being treated with kid gloves.

That being said, there is never a reason nor a justification to behave like a complete ass.

It really bothers me that instead of talking about this rising trend of irresponsible and downright disturbing behaviour from people on the net, the focus instead is mirrored back on the person who brings the behaviour to the forefront.

Though we all seem to agree that calling something 'unbelievably retarded' is wrong, it feels a bit like we, at the same time, shrug our shoulders and claim 'Meh, thats part of the deal'. I think its sad.

I realize this is primarily a writers forum. I also realize that to a large degree I come here not only for the things I need to learn but to socialize with other people struggling with writing.

Some of you are miles beyond some of us in terms of skill, some people here (possibly me) may never have what it takes. But knowing this place is here is a great comfort to me. Not only can I learn stuff, but I can find other writers I might have something in common with. I personally would not post a single word if someone gave me a bad review, but dang, if you can't share that here among other writers at the very least...well, what do you do? Part of dealing with the success as well as failure in writing is talking about it. Where is it safe to do that really?

Anyway, probably a long rant and hopefully doesnt start a shit storm.

I am just personally tired of people excusing abhorrent behaviour by saying 'Deal with it'.
 
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Soccer Mom

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I agree 100 percent that once you make the choice to publish, you are no longer subject to being treated with kid gloves.

That being said, there is never a reason nor a justification to behave like a complete ass.

It really bothers me that instead of talking about this rising trend of irresponsible and downright disturbing behaviour from people on the net, the focus instead is mirrored back on the person who brings the behaviour to the forefront.

Though all of you seem to agree that calling something 'unbelievably retarded' is wrong, it feels a bit like you, at the same time, shrug your shoulders and claim 'Meh, thats part of the deal'. I think its sad.

I realize this is primarily a writers forum. I also realize that to a large degree I come here not only for the things I need to learn but to socialize with other people struggling with writing.

Some of you are miles beyond some of us in terms of skill, some people here (possibly me) may never have what it takes. But knowing this place is here is a great comfort to me. Not only can I learn stuff, but I can find other writers I might have something in common with. I personally would not post a single word if someone gave me a bad review, but dang, if you can't share that here among other writers at the very least...well, what do you do? Part of dealing with the success as well as failure in writing is talking about it. Where is it safe to do that really?

Anyway, probably a long rant and hopefully doesnt start a shit storm.

I am just personally tired of people excusing abhorrent behaviour by saying 'Deal with it'.

I don't think anyone is saying it's okay for people who are nasty just for the sake of being nasty in reviews. Thing is, there is nothing the author can do except for dealing with it. As we have seen over and over, coming out swinging never goes well for the author. Find a good friend or two you can vent to. Vent in private, that means PM, emails, Skype, on the phone, IRL.

It is sad that part of the deal to putting things out in public is how it exposes you to other people's incivility and flat-out WTFery. But that's just a fact of putting anything out there and inviting the public to look at it.

Just look at the hateful way people react to Justin Bieber, as if the kid doesn't have a right to live because he's not "masculine enough" or his music isn't deep and meaningful.

Dealing with it is all you can do.
 

WackAMole

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I don't think anyone is saying it's okay for people who are nasty just for the sake of being nasty in reviews. Thing is, there is nothing the author can do except for dealing with it. As we have seen over and over, coming out swinging never goes well for the author. Find a good friend or two you can vent to. Vent in private, that means PM, emails, Skype, on the phone, IRL.

It is sad that part of the deal to putting things out in public is how it exposes you to other people's incivility and flat-out WTFery. But that's just a fact of putting anything out there and inviting the public to look at it.

Just look at the hateful way people react to Justin Bieber, as if the kid doesn't have a right to live because he's not "masculine enough" or his music isn't deep and meaningful.

Dealing with it is all you can do.

Yeah, I know what you mean! I really do! That was just a vent of my own. I just cant believe how mean people can be and sometimes I get so terribly disappointed in human beings. And you are absolutely correct about that; dealing with it is the only thing you can do. I personally would deal with this kind of thing privately but I understand that sometimes you 'learn' that the hard way!

I sure hope my tone didnt come across wrong. I didnt mean for it to i swear! *shiver* I just get disgusted at people...(and by people Im referring to the person who used the 'retarded' term not the members of the forum)

Sorry if i came across harsh there. I am terrible at expressing myself when it comes to emotional subject matter!
 

Terie

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I agree 100 percent that once you make the choice to publish, you are no longer subject to being treated with kid gloves.

That being said, there is never a reason nor a justification to behave like a complete ass.

It really bothers me that instead of talking about this rising trend of irresponsible and downright disturbing behaviour from people on the net, the focus instead is mirrored back on the person who brings the behaviour to the forefront.

Though all of you seem to agree that calling something 'unbelievably retarded' is wrong, it feels a bit like you, at the same time, shrug your shoulders and claim 'Meh, thats part of the deal'. I think its sad.

I realize this is primarily a writers forum. I also realize that to a large degree I come here not only for the things I need to learn but to socialize with other people struggling with writing.

Some of you are miles beyond some of us in terms of skill, some people here (possibly me) may never have what it takes. But knowing this place is here is a great comfort to me. Not only can I learn stuff, but I can find other writers I might have something in common with. I personally would not post a single word if someone gave me a bad review, but dang, if you can't share that here among other writers at the very least...well, what do you do? Part of dealing with the success as well as failure in writing is talking about it. Where is it safe to do that really?

Anyway, probably a long rant and hopefully doesnt start a shit storm.

I am just personally tired of people excusing abhorrent behaviour by saying 'Deal with it'.

The thing is, most of the OP isn't about the inappropriateness of the review; it's asking for special consideration for 'hobbyists'. As for me, that's what I responded to. And I stand by what I said, nasty, inappropriate, negative review notwithstanding.
 

Marian Perera

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I personally would not post a single word if someone gave me a bad review, but dang, if you can't share that here among other writers at the very least...well, what do you do?

I once read an excerpt of a published book on a writer's blog. The excerpt was full of errors (the book was printed by a vanity press, so... par for the course), but since the writer asked for feedback on her blog, I mentioned some of the errors. Even if the book could not be corrected, the excerpt could be tidied up.

Soon afterward, I found the writer had complained about my response on a public discussion board.

That's one writer whom I don't feel inclined to speak to again, much less try to help. Bottom line: I understand wanting to vent, but it's always safer to do that in private. Don't think that just because it's a writers' board, the reviewers won't read it.

I think writers have it in their power to give a mean-spirited review one of two things : obscurity (by ignoring it) or notoriety (by posting about it, arguing with the reviewer, inadvertently getting more and more people to discuss it, tweet it, etc).
 

WackAMole

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I once read an excerpt of a published book on a writer's blog. The excerpt was full of errors (the book was printed by a vanity press, so... par for the course), but since the writer asked for feedback on her blog, I mentioned some of the errors. Even if the book could not be corrected, the excerpt could be tidied up.

Soon afterward, I found the writer had complained about my response on a public discussion board.

That's one writer whom I don't feel inclined to speak to again, much less try to help. Bottom line: I understand wanting to vent, but it's always safer to do that in private. Don't think that just because it's a writers' board, the reviewers won't read it.

I think writers have it in their power to give a mean-spirited review one of two things : obscurity (by ignoring it) or notoriety (by posting about it, arguing with the reviewer, inadvertently getting more and more people to discuss it, tweet it, etc).

You got me there. I had not even once considered that side of things. (See this is how i get myself in hot water)

I sometimes forget that within this huge world, everything is google-able. I am terribly sorry that happened to you. Things like this happen and they ruin it for the rest of us. Those of us who really want honesty and would never think of trashing someone for doing it. My guess is, this probably happens a lot more than I have any inkling of. Mostly because I lack the experience.

As for thinking a new writer should get special treatment. I am in total agreement on that particular subject. Once you publish, it's game on. Its just terribly unfortunate that some people are dirty players.
 

merrihiatt

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I lurk on the Amazon KDP forums and read post after post about a group of folks "ganging up" on an author and leaving negative reviews or authors leaving negative reviews and linking to their own books.

Bottom line: authors have no control over what a reader thinks about their work. While we would like it if readers would be constructive with their comments, they are under no obligation to do so.

Negative reviews can hit you so hard it takes your breath away. It puts a fire in my belly to make my work better. I don't want to give a reader a reason to dislike my work (they'll find enough of their own reasons!).

I received several negative reviews on one of my titles centering around religion in the book. Reviewers were commenting that it had too much religion and it was a "hidden" Christian book, while some said it had too little religion to be called Christian Fiction (a tag I never placed on the book as the religious aspect was minor). I commented via private message with several friends because I didn't understand why the focus was on this very small part of the book. In the end, I realized that whatever a reader gleans from a book is valid. This is their review. While they don't have the right to make a personal attack on the author, their opinion carries just as much weight as someone who enjoyed the book.

Regarding standards, I want to be held to the same standards as trade published authors. Some day I hope that my work will be comparable to a trade published author; so much so that people will be surprised to realize I am a self-published author. Is that a dream? Maybe. It's also what I am striving for with every word I write.

I would suggest editing your initial post so search engines will not find it when someone searches for your name. Those words are not the first thing you want a potential reader to see.

If you ever want to vent privately, PM me. That goes for anyone here at AW. I'm a really good listener, but I do tell it like it is (after a hug and a cookie).
 

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This is only partly sour grapes talking. I've been wondering for a while if people need to realize that many indie authors are hobbyists and stop holding them to the same standards as traditionally published authors, particularly when we are giving our work away for free.
Why would you expect the average reader to have any understanding of the publishing industry, or to understand the difference between the Big 6 and small press, between small press and vanity press, between vanity press and self pub? Why would the average reader even look at the name of the publisher? And "free" is no longer a sign of "lesser quality". Nowadays, publishers often give away for free older books or short stories to entice readers to buy those authors' newer releases. (And this is hardly a new innovation; Baen has been doing it for a decade or more.)

IMO, if your books are available at the same venue that commercially published books are sold, then it's only reasonable to expect that all books at that venue are going to be judged by the same criteria. The onus is not on the reader/bookbuyer to learn all about the publishing industry and then identify which names are trade publishers and which are hobbyists. If this was such "common knowledge" then you wouldn't have tens of thousands of hopeful authors falling for scams like PublishAmerica each year.
 

Deleted member 42

I agree 100 percent that once you make the choice to publish, you are no longer subject to being treated with kid gloves.

Here's the thing.

There's no upside at all ever in any way in responding to a review.

Even a good review.

Don't Read Them. Don't Respond.

And never ever ever respond to a negative view in writing or on recorded media to anyone at all.

I don't care if you create an alt I.D.

Responding to a review is The Author's Big Mistake.

It always ends badly. Always.
 
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